[hiltond]

So the mass emigration from New Jersey continues. This is a trend that has really gained traction in the last 5 years or so. I can see why. More then a third of the state is largely forest and protected wetland (read: swap and pinebaren), making population density in developed areas much higher then the state-wide population density numbers would suggest. Real Estate prices are still inching up despite rising interest rates and high housing inventories. Oh yeah, and we are broke and have a, hmm how shall I say, somewhat corrupt government. Even with large numbers of people leaving, the population is still growing due to birth-rate and immigration factors (welcome new friends). I've been told by people now living in the Cary, NC area that one is just as likely to run into an old friends there as in Menlo Park, NJ. I don't know that that is true; it probably sticks out more in their minds. Their point is taken, however. Do you North Carolinas really call it Containment Area for Relocated Yankees?

It is not just the usual suspects anymore, like North Carolina, Florida, Arizona and Colorado, but Thailand, Toronto, Vancouver (I know a few people who are trying to get a 67 score on Canada's do you qualify immigration self-test) Italy, India and others. Citizens of the United States have historically been mobile, but the numbers of emigrants are increasing here, and on the ground it is evident.

So now that my rambling is done for the moment, if anyone is still reading, it occurred to me that I've read of a quiet a few Nova members who have left their nation of birth and are now living in a different country/culture. Any of you care to share your experiences?

What do you love about your new home?

What do you miss?

How did you approach integrating yourself with the social mores of your new country? Or didn't you?

Anything else you would like to share, I'd like to read.

This is kind of a hot button issue right now, but I have faith that we can keep this civil.

[intlplby]

yes, we do call CARY that.... we've run into old friends from westchester county before

i'm living in China now.... third country i've lived in... i don't call it emigration anymore... the world is my home... i have three passports

i can work without a visa in America, anywhere in Europe and anywhere in South America


as far as integrating myself into the social mores here, i haven't... i tried a bit and gave up.... i think i would have done so in TaiWan, but as far as Mainland China, communism has made too big an impact..... i have decided that i am leaving soon, because i'm not willing to put myself in a situation where i would have to be corrupt..... you really will never succeed in business here without doing morally contemptable things......my personal integrity is far more important to me than money.... i'm looking at maybe heading to Japan.....

i don't miss North Carolina at all... it is a great place to live, a great place to create a life, but it is BORING....... it's fairly sterile in my opinion...... but if you like the average american way of life it is great..... that's not for me though..... you do have the coast and the mountains in NC that aren't very far away.... Chapel HIll is a really nice place to live....... personally if I chose a place to live in the US, it would be NYC or San Francisco.......

I miss living in Brazil very much... Rio de Janeiro specifically... Sao Paulo, not so much, but then again I lived there soooooo long ago, i have visited since....... I want to live in Europe at some point as well - Paris, London, Rome, etc

[hiltond]

Originally Posted by intlplby yes, we do call CARY that.... we've run into old friends from westchester county before i'm living in China now.... third country i've lived in... i don't call it emigration anymore... the world is my home... i have three passports i can work without a visa in America, anywhere in Europe and anywhere in South America as far as integrating myself into the social mores here, i haven't... i tried a bit and gave up.... i think i would have done so in TaiWan, but as far as Mainland China, communism has made too big an impact..... i have decided that i am leaving soon, because i'm not willing to put myself in a situation where i would have to be corrupt..... you really will never succeed in business here without doing morally contemptable things......my personal integrity is far more important to me than money.... i'm looking at maybe heading to Japan.....

How does that Talking Heads line go? I've got a couple of passports...don't even know my real name. Your post reminded me of that. It must be freeing to be able to work and live in such a variety of places. I've always liked Westchester County. Thanks for sharing.

[intlplby]

From Existencilism by Banksy

"Being yourself is overrated anyway. It doesn't help. People say 'I'm just being myself' as if that's some kind of fucking achievement. That's not an achievement, that's not honesty, it's a lack of imagination and cowardice.

Last year there was a story on the news that went 'A man arrested in Central London today was found to be carrying over a hundred British passports, twenty birth certificates and more than three hundred driving licenses. Police say they have not yet been able to identify the man..."

[hiltond]

His wallet must have been enormous.

[Kickaha]

Cary: YES! That is indeed what it is nicknamed by the locals.

Oddly enough, I just moved *FROM* Raleigh *TO* Westchester County, NY... and intlplby? The Triangle area is much much MUCH less boring than Westchester County. Dear god, I'm about to claw my eyes out up here from the boredom.

Ask anyone what there is to do, where to go, what to see, and you get one, and only one answer: "Go into The City." That's it. The assumption is, that if you want to do *ANYTHING*, you'll either drive or train an hour into 'The City' (and I'm sorry, but that's just fucking pretentious, that capitalization) just for the *honor* of being able to do *anything*.

Screw. That.

I'm about to go insane up here in this Martha-Stewart-clone-infested wasteland.

If I was bland, concerned more with money than my life, had no discernible interests, and had a litter of kids to corral, *MAYBE* I might fit in up here.

As it is, I'm missing the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area immensely.

After years of hearing how *wunnerful* this county was, I'm seeing why people are leaving in droves.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by hiltond It is not just the usual suspects anymore, like North Carolina, Florida, Arizona and Colorado, but Thailand, Toronto, Vancouver (I know a few people who are trying to get a 67 score on Canada's do you qualify immigration self-test)

I haven't been to Toronto, but it sounds great from what people here have said. I 'have' been to Vancouver and Victoria. They are both lovely, esp. the latter. I would give anything to live in Victoria.

Personally, I would recommend Canada above ANY of those other places you listed. I mean, it's *sort of* like the US, but without all the bad stuff. I'm crazy about Canada. But then, I've never actually 'lived' there - just visited.

You didn't mention Australia or New Zealand. I'm not sure about the economy in NZ, but I would imagine things are booming in Australia. I haven't really checked that out though, so I could be way off base.

You might check out Costa Rica too, just for the heck of it. I think the literacy rate there is higher than in the US, and it sounds like they have a reasonably priced universal health care system.

So now that my rambling is done for the moment, if anyone is still reading, it occurred to me that I've read of a quiet a few Nova members who have left their nation of birth and are now living in a different country/culture. Any of you care to share your experiences?

My dad was a geophysicist and for a while was involved in mining concerns in Mexico. We lived down there when I was 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - so, for a pretty formative chunk of my childhood.

It's weird, because I'm sure my mom *really* didn't want to go down there - to leave her nice new home and her friends. But I think she ended up having a great time, because we had lots of household help, and she made fascinating new friends from all over the world.

I loved it too. I picked up Spanish pretty quickly, became good at playing golf at the country club, had lots of adventures, and enjoyed the life of an expat. It's an exotic existence in so many ways.

[RichieB]

I immigrated to the United States back in 1992. I lived in Atlanta for most of it, recently having moved to Arizona.

Looking back, I realize how much I hated living in the big town Atlanta for so many reasons. Southern Baptists (no offence intended to anyone here who is) telling me every other day that I was "going to hell " was one reason. The so-called "southern hospitality" was another. I realized that beyond asking "Howreeeou" most people did not really care to listen to the answer. Like some comedian said, hospitality in the south maybe a mile wide, but it is only an inch deep. Besides, that City is too culturally dry for me.

I love NY. The hustling bustling metropolis that it is! People down south claim that all NYers are curt, angry and rude. I found through personal experience that it may be true to a certain extent but once you befriended a NYer, he/she would really care beyond the superficial "howyadoin'". On the whole, NYers seem to have a low tolerance for BS and that is the way I am as well, I guess. If I ever won 2-3 lotteries in a row, I would move there, and I could finally buy that one bedroom condo in Manhattan and live there all plump and happy with my iMac.

Arizona is the most beautiful state I have lived in. Where else would you have the desert and mountains so magically coincide? The people are nice, and the weather is always beautiful. It is hot but it is the dry heat! However, the endless flow of illegal aliens (I live a half hour north of the border) is absolutely intolerable. They leave behind crap (tin cans, water bottles, backpacks, clothes, etc.) all over the land like it is their right to dump garbage everywhere and in general, have very little, if any, respect for personal property. Yes, I know they come to "work" and "find a better life". Guess what? So did I. Only, since I came Legally, I had to wait 10 years in line before I could set foot in this great country. Cry me a river on this issue... the San Pedro needs some water anyway. Nothing justifies them breaking our laws and then holding demonstrations DEMANDING citizenship as if WE are the problem and not them.

Reading back on my post so far, it has a distinctly negative tinge to it but let me assure you that I think the best decision I ever made was to come to the U.S. I feel like I really grew as an adult because of the various experiences I had in this country. Now that I have traveled across the world (due to the Army) as well as for vaction/pleasure trips, I realize I would not wish to live anywhere else! Nowhere else have I found so much liberty and freedom to accomplish in a few short years that I have been here, all that I have. Hard work pays off here, no strings/red-tape attached.

Phew. Long post.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by RichieB I immigrated to the United States back in 1992. I lived in Atlanta for most of it, recently having moved to Arizona. Looking back, I realize how much I hated living in the big town Atlanta for so many reasons. Southern Baptists (no offence intended to anyone here who is) telling me every other day that I was "going to hell " was one reason. The so-called "southern hospitality" was another. I realized that beyond asking "Howreeeou" most people did not really care to listen to the answer. Like some comedian said, hospitality in the south maybe a mile wide, but it is only an inch deep.

Hear, hear. I moved to NC from Seattle, and it was jarring. In the NW, if you ask someone how their day is going, *they're going to tell you*. First time I answered *honestly* in NC, they looked at me like I'd grown a third eye. I very quickly realized that despite their mouthings of 'southern hospitality', they really could not care less. The politeness is superficial and plastic, just a ritual you go through, and nothing more. Took me years not to be revulsed by it. By contrast, the NW is polite, and *honest* about it. (OTOH, once you get past that conversational level, people can be very very private, and not very open to making new social connections.)

I love NY. The hustling bustling metropolis that it is! People down south claim that all NYers are curt, angry and rude. I found through personal experience that it may be true to a certain extent but once you befriended a NYer, he/she would really care beyond the superficial "howyadoin'". On the whole, NYers seem to have a low tolerance for BS and that is the way I am as well, I guess. If I ever won 2-3 lotteries in a row, I would move there, and I could finally buy that one bedroom condo in Manhattan and live there all plump and happy with my iMac.

I love NYC. I'm learning to loathe Westchester County. And as of this morning's experience with the DMV, Albany and the State of NY can kiss my fucking ass. I can't wait to move out of here.

[hiltond]

Kickaha, Westchester is much more a take the kids to little league and then go see some 17th century Dutch church kind of place. So you know what going to The City is, but how about in to town(Philadelphia)? You're probably too far north for that. If you don't mind me asking, what are your interests. Maybe someone could steer you in a good direction. A few people reverse commute, maybe you would like that.

Windswept, I am not looking to move anywhere. Well, further down NJ's coast when I finish my masters, or get told to get lost for good. Either way. I am just interested in peoples experience, as so many people I know are leaving. It just got me thinking about what the experience is like.

I meant to say New Jersey is all of the bad things you've ever heard it was. It's dirty, crime infested, impossible to navigate and some mobster will whack you. I'll get out if I can. Don't come to find out for yourself, just take my word for it. Why would I not tell the truth?

Those years in Mexico sound interesting.

RichieB, thanks for the thoughts. Glad you are so happy there. New York is a great place, but the magic wore thin after a while for me. Nothing against the city, just personal preference.

[Oompa Loompa]

Come on, Hiltond: come live with us in Holland! It's such a lovely place! Never mind those silly 17th century churches; we all neglected them anyway, and for quite some time!

Hiltond... Holland... sounds good to me!

'Hiltond: staying in the Amsterdam Hilton with Hillary Clinton and Paris and me'... beautiful idea!

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by hiltond Kickaha, Westchester is much more a take the kids to little league and then go see some 17th century Dutch church kind of place.

See, I *like* the old historical sites, and I *like* the rural aspects (Muscoot Farm is a nice place for walking), but I have to have the urban aspects too... at least just a little bit. Just a tiny bit. Please.

So you know what going to The City is, but how about in to town(Philadelphia)? You're probably too far north for that. If you don't mind me asking, what are your interests.

I'm a geek who enjoys a good goth club, a good opera, and food from low diner to high cuisine. Basically, I like the extremes. The bland middle bores the crap outta me.

Maybe someone could steer you in a good direction. A few people reverse commute, maybe you would like that.

My wife and I have thought about it... but the expenses are just too horrendous. Unless things shape up, I'm going to see about getting a transfer to another research location at the end of my postdoc.

[hiltond]

Sorry Kickaha, your interests are not a good mix for Westchester. I'd love to give you an idea, but I think you want to live in the Meat Packing District of New York.

Oompa Loompa, 17th century church must make you snicker. Practically new, isn't it? Why are we inviting Kickaha's neighbor? If we are going to invite a Clinton, can't it be the brilliant one, or at least one of the crazy ones.

About living in Holland: I am scared of your engineers. If I ever got the money for waterfront property, I'd be afraid that some crazy person would come along, build a movable dam, and make my house 300 miles inland.

[intlplby]

i used to live about two doors down from the clintons.... 5 west way, chappaqua..... but we moved just before he moved in...

i lived in chappaqua when i was little so it was nice..... yeah .. you need to go into the city....

if you want to eat well you can head up to the CIA in poughkeepsie and eat there..... there are some cheap diners in pleasantville and mt. kisco....... the school system is great if you have kids....... i don't know what it is like living there as an adult with no kids though... i imagine pretty boring


raleigh sucks..... chapel hill is great... durham is so-so.... when you say the triangle is great, what you really mean is just chapel hill.....