User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » Apple Products »

Core Audio, Core Video


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Core Audio, Core Video
Thread Tools
piwozniak
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: close enough
 
2004-06-29, 13:36

Amazing, but....

let's hope devs won't go nuts and OS interface wont turn into a spinning circus.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-06-29, 13:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwozniak
Amazing, but....

let's hope devs won't go nuts and OS interface wont turn into a spinning circus.
While agreed, the lengths to which a developer would have to go to bypass the established APIs for the usual UI widgets just to apply these things is not trivial. Ie, it's not worth most developers time to do it 'just for fun'. It has to be thought out ahead of time.
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2004-06-29, 14:03

What I'd like to know is how hard it would be for a company to use Core Image to create a Photoshop class contender. (Note I didn't say Photoshop killer...)

How much of Photoshop's arsenal is in Core Image? 30%?, 50%?, 70%?

Between Cocoa and Core Image, could a small developer really scare Adobe?

(I'm not a coder, so I'm really asking!)
  quote
piwozniak
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: close enough
 
2004-06-29, 14:24

I think there's much more in Photosho than just filters

it would make it easier, but still.

Did you guys watch the stream? Look how these widgets "pop up" on the screen, or how the clock widget spins, even though it's just to demonstrate the potential, looks really cool :-)

And iChat video conference with 3 people looks like a killer. Stills can't convey it, it has to be seen.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-06-29, 14:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777
What I'd like to know is how hard it would be for a company to use Core Image to create a Photoshop class contender. (Note I didn't say Photoshop killer...)

How much of Photoshop's arsenal is in Core Image? 30%?, 50%?, 70%?

Between Cocoa and Core Image, could a small developer really scare Adobe?

(I'm not a coder, so I'm really asking!)
Scare? No.

Take over the PShop Express market pretty handily? Oh yeah. In a heartbeat.

Photoshop is a weird beast - Adobe does their own memory management internally, bypassing the OS (good in OS9 days, silly in OS X days), they use all their own algorithms for various effects and plug-ins (when most of them have already been available under QuickTime for years), and they even wrote their own plug-in architecture (again, kinda needed under OS9, utterly not under OS X). PShop has many of the pieces of an OS inside it, for criminy's sake.

An equivalent image editor written using OS X supplied tools and libraries would be... well... really really tiny in comparison. And undoubtedly less resource intensive. And probably faster. Not to mention snappier(tm).
  quote
piwozniak
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: close enough
 
2004-06-29, 14:38

But here's the thing...

Let's assume Adobe jumps right in, and next PS uses these effects, what happens when file (.psd) is opened on 10.3, or windows?

Not gonna happen folks...

Idea is great, and hopefully we'll see some nice, FAST apps utilizing it, but i don't think PS will use them any time soon...

I guess first app making use of those would be iPhoto :-)
  quote
ast3r3x
25 chars of wasted space.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Send a message via AIM to ast3r3x  
2004-06-29, 15:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwozniak
But here's the thing...

Let's assume Adobe jumps right in, and next PS uses these effects, what happens when file (.psd) is opened on 10.3, or windows?
Image files don't remember effects, just pixels

If they didn't stop windows from double buffering when they are already double buffered, I don't think they will change how their effects are done.
  quote
Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2004-06-29, 15:52

But a .psd isn't exactly an image file, it's an image file that remembers effects.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-06-29, 16:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao
But a .psd isn't exactly an image file, it's an image file that remembers effects.
It remembers a *list* of effects. How those effects are implemented is utterly dependent on the platform.

Or are you suggesting that a .psd file contains Mac effects and Windows effects?

This makes zero difference on cross-platform capability, as long as the effects are available on each system *SOMEHOW*... and let's face it, if Photoshop... PHOTOSHOP... has to *ADD* effects to keep up with the basic functionality in Core Image... something's seriously wrong with the market.
  quote
Barto
Student extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canberra, Australia
 
2004-06-29, 23:54

Brad mentioned in another thread that when Mac OS X was first announced, people predicted Sketch.app and it's PDF functionality would kill Illustrator. Which of course didn't happen.

I agree that Core Image won't kill Photoshop BUT it will remove the need to use Photoshop all the time.

It's the difference between "photochopping" an image and transforming the image as a whole. Most of the time I use Photoshop is simply saving in new formats, resizing, levels and so on. Core Image + Automator replaces that or at least provides an alternative to Photoshop.

Speaking of Automator, I am stoked about it. It's like what Microsoft tried to do with task based computing, but it actually works! Awesome.

Barto

The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass.
  quote
SonOfSylvanus
Fro Productions(tm)
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: London Town
 
2004-06-30, 15:16

Forgive my ignorance about what Core Video and Core Audio are, but what I want to know is this: Will Core Video mean that I can smoothly scroll through a web page/resize a window etc?

GODAMMIT these two things kill me! Will the fact that Core Video can use GPU cycles to process information for the OS mean that common-or-garden imaging effects (scrolling, resizing) will be Snappier(tm)?

Thanks

bouncy bouncy
  quote
Bones3D
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Nerv, Tokyo 3, Japan
 
2004-06-30, 19:42

I don't see Core replacing Photoshop's current filters anytime soon. The huge reason for this, is that it would kill the consistency between Photoshop on the Mac and the PC. While the filter sets between Core and Photoshop are similar, they aren't identical and could give completely different results.

However, that wouldn't necessarily prevent anyone from creating a Core filter set to run along-side the standard Photoshop filter set as a mac-only feature. It would just have to be acknowleged that the two systems are different from each other.

8==8 Bones 8==8
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2004-07-01, 17:35

I could see them maybe adding some new, Mac-only filters or special effects via Core Image, but the more I read up on things the less likely it seems any major changes would occur. I would love to see them reduce the modality of and greatly speed up Liquify and also the Transform tools, but otherwise not sure it's going to happen.

Although evidently it would be pretty easy for Adobe to implement. So looks more like a business decision than a programmatic one.

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
HOM
The Elder™
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: The Rostra
 
2004-07-01, 17:58

I think this gives Apple an opportunity to do something I've wanted them to do for a while. Apple should use Core Image to create a killer PS plugin so if a real pixel pusher really wants the best PS experience there is no option besides the Mac. Hell give it away for free as another incentive.

CARTHAGO DELENDA EST

¡Viva La Revolucion!
  quote
hmurchison
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LV 426
Send a message via ICQ to hmurchison  
2004-07-01, 19:04

I contend that Omnigroup should consider a Photoshop Elements competitor. The reason why is because ,although browsers are different, you still have to know about graphics rendering. Plus Omni has no desire that I know of in going cross platform so they can use all the Apple APIs that they want without fear for what they'll do to the codebase portability. In fact I think I'll send them an email to let them know that i'd love an OmniEditor app to go along with the shiny Omni Web, Omni outliner and Omni Graffle I'll have.

I'm thinking about supporting as many Mac only houses like Omni, Stone and others before I go with some bloated gargabe from the "majors"
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2004-07-01, 19:07

Quote:
Originally Posted by HOM
I think this gives Apple an opportunity to do something I've wanted them to do for a while. Apple should use Core Image to create a killer PS plugin so if a real pixel pusher really wants the best PS experience there is no option besides the Mac. Hell give it away for free as another incentive.

That's a really interesting idea HOM. This way it doesn't cut into Adobe's marketshare the way a stand-alone app would, but definitely differentiates our Photoshop from theirs. Question IS, what would that plug-in do to make it a must?

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
hmurchison
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LV 426
Send a message via ICQ to hmurchison  
2004-07-01, 19:28

The problem with using Core Image to create a PS plugin is that you are constrained by the technical limitation of the PS plugin format.

Core Image and Image and Video Units must be utilized together. Photoshop would have to support CI and the Units for us to see any advantage.

Core Image is far more than just a plugin creator. It should give developers lower level access to the "guts" of OSX and these guts lead right deep into the heart of your GPU for speedy processing. A PS plugin, no matter how good, is going to be bound to the CPU. Sadly It's altogether likely that you will see a reluctance from cross platform developers to embrace CI/CV. Today's reality is that if you need the $$$$ you have to be cross platform thus I believe the best chance for seeing some cool stuff would be from developers who for the foreseeable future plan on staying Mac only.

What better platform to start a revolution. Mac users are creative and open to new stuff. We love software and that's why we choose this platform that gives us shareware that's better than commerical wintel apps.
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
 
2004-07-01, 21:55

Truthfully, I am not opposed - in principle anyway - to Apple releasing a professional image editor to complete their suite of pro media apps. The quality of FCP and Motion and DVDSP are just top notch... to be able to have a comparable quality image editor would (in a perfect world) only spur Adobe on to bigger and better things.

Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world and something like that would do irreparable damage to the relationship Adobe and Apple have IMO. Premiere was a relatively minor blow compared to what would happen if Apple undercut Photoshop.....

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
hmurchison
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: LV 426
Send a message via ICQ to hmurchison  
2004-07-01, 22:08

Moogs I only hope Apple agrees with you and I on this.

Apple doesn't need to offer every feature in the book. In fact I would recommend that Apple create a small app based on Core Image and Video. This app would come bundled with Final Cut Pro 5. It would be tailored for editing video frames but would work well on standard images. It would not touch things like CMYK seperations and other Print Pub functions.

It would stand as a capable editor for graphics for Apple's pro apps as you say. Adobe would surely raise an eyebrow but Apple shouldn't have to beg Adobe to utilize Mac technology. We need a capable "Proof of Concept" host app for Video and Image units. Since it's bundled with FCP that severely limits it's impact to 3rd parties. Just like Motion doesn't replace After Effects but rather augments it well.

Come'on Apple. Show us what this nifty stuff you created can do.
  quote
blackjack75
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
 
2005-07-23, 12:04

Well.. guess what. I started a project of that kind. I haven't released it since I want it to be perfectly stable andd there is still (quite) some work to do. But one thing I can tell you CoreImage is just amazing from a developer point of view.

I had never done any objective-c, had no knowledge of cocoa and only own a mac since december 2004. And within say.. (a month?) I'll come up with a program that will be able to replace photoshop in many of the task it is used for. Of course PhotoShop is a monster, so don't expect all functionnality to be there. But quite a lot will be (see the features pages). Any comments are welcome.

http://www.chocoflop.com/
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:25.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2024, AppleNova