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billybobsky
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2013-12-22, 07:32

So as I near the midway point of the mobtrap construction, I am wondering whether anyone actually wants zombie flesh, and whether you would be interested in having a rudimentary sorting system (it will have to be a little more complicated than the standard one, incorporating an overflow recovery system of which I have two in mind -- one detects when the filtering hopper gets too full and stops items from entering it, the other uses named items to block out the unused hopper storage spaces. The second being simpler, but requiring xp levels galore). If everyone is interested in a sorting system, would you also like the drops from the witches separated (this would bulk up the collection area immensely).

Let me know...
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turtle
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Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2013-12-22, 10:55

If you asked me, making us sort is more than sufficient though it would be cool for everything being automated (as much as possible anyway). Without a major XP grinder like we had in The End it would take more time, and we would have to find tags since the store isn't open right now too.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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billybobsky
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2014-01-01, 13:55

Can we change the title of this thread to Moptrapahoppermaggedon.

Right. I thought I was making progress. Really, I did. I mean, it's right there. The mobs are dying. Their drops are being filtered, nothing is getting overwhelmed by the flux, which is substantial (at least for 'normal' mobs, excluding spiders). I've even managed to build the collection area.... It's just that I need so many damn hoppers, that my iron resources are getting taxed to depletion. And I do mean depletion. I had chests filled with stacks of iron blocks, and now have just a handful. I look upon my own works and despair. This may take a while longer, especially since I cannot currently buy the iron i need to fit out the remainder of the hopper conduits.

It will be done, and it will be glorious, just not tomorrow...

On a side note: Brad (or turtle) could either perhaps op in and place one of each hostile mob head (skulls, whatever) on the four quartz pillars in the collection area for decoration purposes? Angled is preferable to straight on...
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709
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2014-01-01, 14:20

…to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.


So good. Just, so, so good.

So it goes.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2014-01-01, 21:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
...

On a side note: Brad (or turtle) could either perhaps op in and place one of each hostile mob head (skulls, whatever) on the four quartz pillars in the collection area for decoration purposes? Angled is preferable to straight on...
Done!
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billybobsky
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2014-01-02, 05:29

Thanks!
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billybobsky
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2014-01-02, 12:06

Ok.

So. White whale no more-ish.

Please read this post in its entirety -- I am not responsible for items lost because of vapid illiteracy.

The mob trap is ready to use. Items are already being sorted into their respective chests, I merely needed to remove the iron roof off of my atoll to get the job done. Hopefully I will be able to replace that roof soon-ish.

The trap is only accessible via its Nether portal. Find it near the Midget Disco.

All users must be warned: there is no ladder from ocean level to mob trap. This is by design. The filters bug out if partially loaded, so don't build one. Seriously: DON'T. If you fall off the trap, its a long southern swim to shore. Enjoy the swim!

Further, if you do explore the trap and happen to die on the surface or the filters, your items are toast. There is no setting for callous, self-directed indifference in redstone -- if you fall in, no one should hear you complain. And lest you think all is well on the surface... My hope is that Brad will raise the spawning apparatus three blocks higher to help in killing off the witches that spawn on the lower platforms. Until he does so, expect to die on the hoppers. The armored zombies and skellies will always survive. In other words: the collection area is only to be traversed by the truly stupid.

That said, enjoy the view from the observation deck.

A couple of minor points: This trap is not magic. It works on the same principle as mob spawning throughout the map works. That is why if another user is on in a dark region of the map or an area with a lot of unlit caves, the rate of mobs falling drops substantially. The trap is not broken in these cases, and as soon as the other user logs off, the mobs will start spawning at a decent pace again.

Please do not use the drops to pad your bank balances. There are rare drops from witches like glowstone dust and redstone that are worth quite a bit, but they are rare, and I'd rather not see Brad drop the prices the server will purchase these items at simply because of other user's laziness. It should be abundantly clear that simply mining for these items is immensely faster than waiting for the drops to collect at the trap. If you want to be rich, save time, work for it...

The filters are a goddamn headache, but easy enough to fix when they bug out. So my last and most important request is that anyone who sees that items have been mis-sorted, please report it here. The problem with this as a 'plan' is that it will take some time after an bug has occurred for the missorted items to find their way into the chests. So I will occasionally check the filters to make sure everything is a-ok.

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-02 at 12:20.
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billybobsky
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2014-01-02, 14:41

Gah! The white whale resurfaces! The pistons on the filters are proving to be a bit more of a problem than I had anticipated... I will need to redesign that element.

The trap should be operational in the meantime... Just ignore any crap that comes through.

Edit and update: Redesign of the filters has been completed, and I have installed 3/8. I suspect that I will see less random breaking with the new design. Principally this will be accomplished by not depending upon the piston cycle to update properly, but this also allows more tight regulation on timing of the filter circuits, which is something that pistons, in multiples, operating at the same time doesn't really allow because of the 'animation' cycle adding to server/client load... I saw some strange bugs including failed block updates and detached redstone blocks... If I could completely forgo torches as well, I would, but unfortunately since the default state of the hoppers should be off, a torch or a piston-redstone block is required, and I think one of those is superior to the other. In any event, the trap is still functioning, filtering is mostly working... I will need to flush the drops from the most common mobs a few times to make sure all extraneous items are removed, but it should be much improved once I finish off the new filters.

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-02 at 19:05.
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kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2014-01-02, 15:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybobsky View Post
In other words: the collection area is only to be traversed by the truly stupid.
I love your bluntness!

Well, here's to stupid! If it wasn't for stupid, none of us would have anything to bicker about.
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2014-01-02, 15:16

Dude!!

That trap is crazy bad-ass! Nice work, guys.

I'm assuming the arrows/powder are public use? I'm gonna reload the Nether arrow chest. I've been going through them like nuts.

Again, nice work!

Edit: BB, you commented that I had no idea how much powder the trap generated, and I thought you might just be exaggerating. Well, I was pulling arrows out of the chest and it was filling up spots as soon as I emptied them. All I can say is, sheesh! At some point, I imagine the surface piling up with bones, arrows and powder. That would be a sight!

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billybobsky
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2014-01-02, 16:21

Nah the surface will never get to that point.... There are built in incinerators for any overflow drops...

Just to be sure... It's my design, resources and insanity that constructed the trap, so don't blame anyone except me when it goes tits up....

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-02 at 18:47.
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billybobsky
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2014-01-03, 05:51

Not sure why it is happening, but the filters, even with the improvements, continue to break... The thing is: it's symmetrical, it breaks at the same spot on both sides of the trap so it is not chunk/orientation specific. I decided to relax the filtering a bit, and distribute the major mob drops into well separated filters, so they aren't likely to interfere with each other with an unknown or unreported redstone bug. If this doesn't work, I will have to let the sorting system fail, as maintenance seems to be required every time the trap is loaded....

I have decided to take the filtering off-line while I try to fix it... Unfortunately this means no drops are being collected... Sorry, guys, but I hope I will be able to have this sorted...

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-03 at 07:04.
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billybobsky
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2014-01-03, 19:00

I really do not know what to say... It seems that there are incredible block update errors that allow the filters to get emptied either partially or completely. I observed one where the filter was sitting empty, the comparator unpowered and responsive, and yet the bottom half of the circuit remained completely unresponsive. It's not clear whether this occurs during loading or during the system running (I have never seen the problem happen in real time, though I guess it is possible). I suspect during loading, where the server load is greatest. Honestly, this was the only way the system could fail at the moment... I've rebalanced everything I could so that small hiccups in circuit response times would pass unobserved. That said, the error rate seems to be about the same as before, so all of the previous filter emptying etc was probably caused by the same fundamental problem with redstone not updating during world loading, perhaps compounded by the pistons...

I cannot fathom a way around this at the moment. My best approach might be to only filter off the precious drops from witches, which are rare enough to not be too taxing on the server, and let the scrum through unsorted until the chests fill. It is not an elegant solution and it is a ton more work than I have time to input right now.

So unfortunately, The Trap is Closed.

Please, please, please do not enter the trap area either via the portal or by boat/over ocean. If you are there, please leave. I have blocked the nether portal entrance, sorry, you will have to break through to get out, but I cannot risk someone accidentally entering. The trap literally needs to be fixed/checked every time someone loads those chunks, and I cause enough damage just trying to build/fix it. Besides, it is off. No drops are being collected below. If you happen to be in the trap and see the chests getting filled, this is because the hoppers are still catching up with what few drops I allowed through before.

Unfortunately, my winter holiday ends next week, and I have work to catch up with this weekend, so it will be a while before I come back to address this issue.

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-03 at 21:21.
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2014-01-03, 21:07

Certain people on this planet are gifted with insight into things others cannot understand. Computer language/programming is not my gift. While I love, love, love the endless supply of arrows your fancy, little machine generates, I am unable to comprehend the amount of effort that has gone into the trap as it currently stands.

Your work is appreciated!

Prior to the closure, I stuffed the Spawn arrow and powder chests to the max, so if anyone needs that stuff, there is a reasonable supply built up. I also stocked up my own arrow supply yesterday.

The fool machine makes arrows almost as fast as I can grab them, so kudos to you for that!

In the meantime, take a break, dude. We all need to sleep* once in a while.

*If you're seeing the damn thing in your sleep, you're spending too much time on it!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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billybobsky
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2014-01-04, 09:53

Of course I see the damn thing in my sleep -- that's what all obsessives do. Hell I even came up with a torch- and repeater-less tileable item sorting system in my sleep (ok, its wider than the current one but it will produce no block lighting updates which will decrease client side lag... no... i don't actually mind the mild stuttering).

Following up on your suggestion of sleep, I did so. I woke up this morning, unhappy with the need to modify the design which seems to work fine most of the time. That's when it hit me. Most of the time. Thinking back on all of the errors that have occurred during chunk loading, it was when I used the /back command to transport resources to the trap. I never really used the nether as such, and I know for a fact that the nether portals are friendlier with chunk loading and unloading than the tp command and similar ilk. So I did what any experimentalist does: I let the system run at full max. Checked the filters for any loss of stability over the course of an hour. I saw none. So it's not a redstone problem. I went to the nether and back twice. Again no issue. I didn't want to fix the filters again so I declined to do the last experimental repeat of the previous failures. I logged out from the nether.

So a brief explaination: going through the nether portal keeps chunks open on the previous side for entity calculations for a minute. This lets all of the mobs fall to their death/despawn, the items in the hoppers get a bit further on their path, which essentially clears the filters to a reasonable steady state [as far as i know this does not happen when a player logs off, more on that in a bit]. The other thing that it does is open a larger number of chunks at the same time than the /back command does (I suspect), which allows the redstone circuitry to be opened intact and already processing.

So the simplest way to have the trap work stably is that the use of /tp or /back or similar to it is strictly forbidden, AND no one should logoff at the trap. There is however a possibly more permanent solution that might allow all of these actions to have no effect: I could build out a chunk loader from spawn to keep the entities processing (primarily a redstone thing, NB: not entity spawning or otherwise). I certainly have the hoppers and the resources for more, and the 'design' is stupidly simple. But this would add a small amount of activity on the server when no one is on: essentially the hoppers at the trap would continue to move drops until the system is at equilibrium, so I would like permission from Turtle and Brad before I start to install hoppers in the sky.
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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2014-01-04, 11:32

Sometimes, the best solutions come when we refocus our attention.
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billybobsky
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2014-01-05, 16:39

I am going to keep the trap closed for the forseeable future, at least until I can have a conversation with Brad in game to discuss whether it might be possible to limit the use of the /back command or perhaps finding a replacement that more gently loads and unloads chunks.

The 'problem' with the trap is that the filters break hard (redstone doesn't update even if there is nothing in the system) if and only if the /back command is used in its vicinity (whenever any of the chunks containing any part of the trap are loaded or to be loaded and the command is issued). I do not have access to the /tp command but I suspect it will cause similar failures. The trap works perfectly if you limit yourself to travel through the Nether or seemingly over the overworld. All of this said, since i am not sure even i can reliably know whether the trap chunks are loaded around me when underground, I'd rather not have to fix the filters and clear the system every time someone accidentally uses the /back command.

In related news: No hopper dependent chunk loading is happening on the server. Not sure why, but even the simplest designs that work on SSP do not work on AN server. This is probably a bukkit bug, since in vanilla minecraft the chunk loading comes as a result of items needing to be passed into adjoining but unloaded chunks. In any event, I have left my 'chunk loading' hoppers in place on the supposition that they might be useful in the future.
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drewprops
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2014-01-05, 16:56

I suspect I'm not the only one who feels they'd rather not lose the use of the /back command, as we would otherwise lose very valuable tools.

I don't know that I'll use the trap enough to consider it an equitable tradeoff.




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billybobsky
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2014-01-05, 17:08

I am not asking that the /back command get removed. I use it and feel comfortable with it. But it is buggy: it causes problems with redstone circuits that would occur anywhere outside of spawn, not just the mob trap.

If there were a way for the /back command not to be issuable to or from certain chunks, that would be best. We could just make a no teleport region around the mobtrap. Otherwise people will simply have to not use the /back command when in or below the northern ocean around the trap. This shouldn't be that big of an issue.

To be sure the root cause is fundamental to Minecraft, when tping away from non-spawn chunks redstone gets stuck: https://mojang.atlassian.net/browse/MC-711

It not the trap :/...

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-05 at 18:15.
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Elysium
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2014-01-05, 17:13

Would not any line of sight back command that runs through the trap chunks anywhere from point A to point B regardless of distance of the end points also cause issues?

Or is /back not like /tp as it doesn't load every chunk in between?

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billybobsky
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2014-01-05, 17:27

Neither loads every chunk in between any more (this can be seen using command blocks in ssp, you can teleport thousands of blocks instantly, which was not the case with the old style teleport)... Besides the chunks would need to be loaded sufficiently long for a change in redstone to occur but not long enough for it to be properly recorded.
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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2014-01-05, 18:37

Could we not make a simple rule that the only way into or out of the trap is through the Nether? And if you're silly enough to die in there, there is no /back permitted? Certainly, no one can reach the trap over land without nerd-poling up, right? Or is just anyone passing through the general area causing trouble?

Are those rules enforceable?

Personally, I wouldn't bother wasting a visit unless through the Nether, and I have already seen the wisdom of your advise in staying out of the trap, other than the observation deck, as the risk of losing your stuff is just not worth the curiosity satisfaction.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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billybobsky
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2014-01-06, 08:55

It's more than just the trap: it's below it or above as well. Anywhere where chunks are loaded from the trap and someone uses the /back command, problems will arise.

To make this clearer to everyone, i have taken an overhead view of the mobtrap and surroundings. In the image below, the area covered with the transparent squares (reflecting chunks) is the region in which TPing and /backing are always destructive to the redstone on the trap. It covers nothing of interest...


Mob trap no Tp zone by billybobsky, on Flickr
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billybobsky
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2014-01-11, 14:42

Turtle, or anyone else that was logged on today: was anyone at the trap or near it (even the northern shoreline of CC) and use /back or /tp or logout?

I need to know because when I logged on one of the filters was not updating appropriately (it was stuck in a 'safe' configuration, and had only been in that arrangement briefly), and it would be nice to be able to track when the redstone update bug is manifesting (ie to know if Nether transport is indeed truly less buggy -- I've not seen errors arising from my transport to the nether, but that doesn't mean they don't happen).

Let me put it another way: I have evidence that someone was close enough to the trap that mobs were spawning simply based upon an accounting of the of rare drops from witches, if that person could inform me of how they left the trap that'd be great!

Last edited by billybobsky : 2014-01-11 at 15:10.
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turtle
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2014-01-11, 15:57

It wasn't me lately. Just the day I PM'ed you about where I used the portal. I've been hanging out at turtle Heights more than anywhere else.

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Elysium
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2014-01-11, 16:03

I was on today, but was nowhere near the mob trap.
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709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2014-01-11, 16:07

Not me either - I haven't even make it to 13topia recently.
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billybobsky
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2014-01-11, 16:37

So odd... by my calculations, it appears that the trap was 'running' for somewhere near 2 hours since I was briefly on around noon today (glowstone dust drops every 2-3 minutes, there was more than a stack added from when i emptied it early today).

Well all is odd that ends odd...
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2014-01-11, 17:04

Isn't my place the closest to your trap?

I have NOT been on today yet however, so it could not have been me.


...
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kscherer
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Join Date: Aug 2004
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2014-01-11, 17:49

Tweren't me. I'm avoiding the joint until just before our outing, tonight.

Maybe the mobs are partying behind our backs?
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