[jkloos]

from the analyst's

For example, Mr. Wilcox said that the addition of Double Layer SuperDrives to the Power Mac G5 line is more important than incremental speed increases. While such DVD burners have been available as stand-alone units since last year and became standard equipment in some Windows computers late in 2004, Mr. Wilcox said that Apple "did the right thing by waiting [to include the drives] . There's been a lag between the drives coming to market and the availability of media. What's the point of including something that consumers can't use?"


I think it's time to realise this is how it's gonna be. This is also how Apple has always been. It's also the reason why we have a great sytem. We get the technology when it's standard so we don't have to deal with the kinks in the system along the way. Talking to PC users about PCI express most say it's ridiculously uneeded at the moment. Same with dual core, lower clock speeds and limited use is why we're gonna be waiting till next year. On the bright side we do have the fastest 64 bit pc on the market now, including offerings from AMD and Intel we are in the lead again. To all those saying PC's are cheaper and have newer technology. You're dead wrong. After all the talk here from certain individuals I have searched through various pc sites and offerings. Guess what, a system with dual core or dual 64 bit processors and PCI express on the pc side cost an average of $1,500 dollars. Not to mention they don't have supoort for 8 gigs of ram. Which is now $1200 from the right vendors. Let me tell you ram is the number one thing with tiger that will make your system scream. Putting 1 gig in there isn't going to even start to give you an idea of how fast these machines are. So spend the $1,500 you were gonna spend on that dual core system with PCI express on ram. Together with a dual 2.7 powermac I can guarantee nothings faster.

P.S. if your gonna say PC's with dual core or dual processors (64 bit by the way please, and make sure they are faster than 2.7ghz) and PCI express are cheaper please post the proof right here. I haven't seen anything in the ballpark of $3,000 dollars yet. Sure you can go buy a single processor 3.0 ghz regular pentium with a decent graphics card (not PCI express) for $1,200 but in no way does it compare to the new powermacs. So please stop making yourselves sound stupid. Sure the update could have been better. But currently there is nothing better on the market for the price and power.

P.S.S. Again if you want to refute that i want links. But on a side note next year should be very nice for powermacs. I'd rather be last to the table with the best machine than first with a hodge podged system such as Intel's. Or go backwards in clock speed speed like AMD's. My prediction is you'll see 970 mp in a laptop first but you never know.

[Quagmire]

How does this prove why the 970MP wasn't used in the Powermacs? I am confused.

[jkloos]

Read it. Apple does not put the latest and greatest into there systems. They will wait until dual core and PCI express aren't just niche products.

[thegelding]

i can vouch for the media thing...

i have a lightscribe burner...can't get lightscribe dvd's in town and i am on backorder from the internet

no dual layer dvds to buy at compusa or circuit city or best buy in town...so i will have to get those online too

still, i like the fact that they are going 16x dual now...and having usb2 is a plus too...hope apple keeps innovating, but also want them to include the components that will allow mac users to buy perpherials that the pc crowd get

g

[Luca]

But think about it. Yeah, you can get a 16x DVD burner with double layer compatibility, even though there's no media available. So what's the point in getting it? Eventually, media WILL become available, and then your drive will essentially be upgraded. But if you bought a PowerMac G5 before today, once double layer media and 16x single layer media becomes available, you won't be able to use it. There's really no point in holding off, because 16x drives cost the same as 8x drives but are more future proof. Same with PCI Express... sure, even AGP 8x isn't being used to its full potential now, but future video cards will use PCI Express so even if it doesn't have any current benefits, it'll be nice in the long run.

[jkloos]

I agree as well about having the same as the pc crowd get. How do you know there won't be a better standard next year other than PCI express. On a completely unrelated note from my last sentence I think Apple and ATI are working on something nice.

[evane]

Another way of looking at the Power Mac updates is that this is the evolution (which could indicate slow and steady updates) of a stable platform. Some mac users like that the Power Macs don't change radically with each update. You get a slightly faster machine, but know what to expect. And every few years or so a radical update might occur.

Dual cores will be nice, but they'll be here when they are. So what if Intel and AMD trump each other with paper announcements of chips shipping to OEM's. Eventually dual core technology will become more widespread and more affordable. Eventually IBM will go from 90nm to 65nm. Every time a new chip redesign comes out, inevitably the initial yields will be low, until they get comfortable making them. What good would dual cores be to us, if we had to wait 6 months for them to ship?

PCI-express will also be nice, but AGP cards are just as good now, and will be until people use up all the capability of AGP and start utilizing PCI-e 16x. That will be nice too, and eventually will become more affordable.

I'm going to be very happy with the dual 2Ghz I just ordered. And even happier when its chock full o' RAM.

[Wrao]

And yet apple recently released a computer with bluetooth 2.0, which is virtually nonexistent ANYWHERE else :/

Apple has a spotty relationship with the bleeding edge. They have had many 'firsts' that later become standard, they have also been on top of the wave with a lot of other stuff(though not necessarily the first) But then some things... they just lag with.

shrug, I'm sure Apple knows what they are doing.

[jkloos]

My girlfriends Dad bought dual layer drive's for everyone in his family as soon as they were out last summer. He asked if we would like one and I declined. He couldn't understand why I wouldn't want one. For the same future proof reasons you stated Luca. Well i responded to him media was currently $15 per disc and that I could burn 2 4.7 gig discs for 0.80 cents. What is the point of dual layer when still even a year later discs are $10 and are still hard as shit to find. I thought last summer when i saw things by the time they're cheap enough and readily available I'll be buying a Blue Ray drive. As of now it looks like I'm right.

By the my girl's Dad has yet to burn a single dual layer disc in 8 months now.

[evane]

This reminds me of when I was a freshman in college. I bought a 10 pack of CD-R's that came with a free CD-RW. I was such a cheapskate that I kept reburning the CD-RW after I ran out of CD-R's. That got me by for quite a while.

[jkloos]

Originally Posted by evane This reminds me of when I was a freshman in college. I bought a 10 pack of CD-R's that came with a free CD-RW. I was such a cheapskate that I kept reburning the CD-RW after I ran out of CD-R's. That got me by for quite a while.

[Luca]

I think the main reason people are complaining isn't because the updates are that bad (they're boring/lackluster, but not really bad), but because we waited so long for them and are afraid we'll have to wait even longer for another revision. If we knew Apple was planning on upgrading the PowerMacs again in maybe five months with a more substantial update, then I don't think people would be complaining so loudly. But as it stands, no one knows if we'll be getting all the goodies in five months, or if we'll wait another ten months for an equally boring upgrade.

By all the goodies, I'm referring to the following technologies:
Dual core
3 GHz
1 MB L2 cache
Onboard memory controller
PCI Express
SATA II
DDR2
Radeon X-series and GeForce 6-series video cards as standard equipment

Any of those would be a very welcome addition to the PowerMacs, but the only "new" technology added was double layer DVD burning.

So yeah, it's not the update itself. The PowerMacs are undoubtedly a better value today than they were yesterday. But if we're going to wait another 10 months for another 8% processor increase and an insignificant change in other specs, I think the outcry is justified.

Maybe the biggest deal in all this is that buying a PowerMac with a display is now much cheaper. The 20" dropped by $200 and the 23" dropped by $300, and the 30" effectively fell in price by $450-$500 because you no longer need to buy a GeForce 6800 to run it.

[evane]

Luca,

This is an exact echo of what jkloos said yesterday. It makes you feel dumb for having waited so long for updates when you could've just gone and bought one already. So now that they're updated, who knows how long until they're updated again, so you might as well just go ahead and get one. Or at least that's what they want you to think ... But really, this just draws a finer line between those who need it now (and should go ahead and buy) versus those who can afford to wait (and complain).

[Satchmo]

This upgrade would have been better received had they simply lowered the price of the single 1.8 PowerMac by $200-$300 to $1199 or $1299.
Coupled with the new price drop of the 20" display, you'd be able to get a nice expandable system for $2K or less.

[The Return of the 'nut]

Originally Posted by jkloos Read it. Apple does not put the latest and greatest into there systems. They will wait until dual core and PCI express aren't just niche products.

that is completely untrue. Apple puts the latest and greatest into their systems ALL THE TIME when it is available to them to do so. You're argument is completely unfounded.

and the whole media before the drive argument is ridiculous. Why was that not a problem when Apple introduced the first Superdrive. Before that day most DVD burners were over 800 dollars and little to no media, especially affordable media, existed outside of professional channels. You know how they handled that? They sold their own media.

These latest PowerMacs deserve no defending. It's a shitty overpriced upgrade. They aren't bad, they will perform well, but they are far from a good upgrade and even further from a good deal. When I first went to the Apple Store I saw "prices starting at 1499" and I thought they had cut the low end DP PowerMac to 1499. If they had done that this would have been a good upgrade. And that's the only way this could have been considered a good upgrade

[Moogs]

Not only that but in two years the dual 2.7 will leak on your carpet.

[holbox]

Originally Posted by evane Another way of looking at the Power Mac updates is that I'm going to be very happy with the dual 2Ghz I just ordered. And even happier when its chock full o' RAM.

You'll LOVE IT!

I've had mine for two months and said "damn it" when I saw the new monitor and PowerMac prices.

But, I've enjoyed it for an extra two months and what the hell. A few bucks more or less and a few fraction of a second more or less ..... so what!

[Luca]

holbox, you should be glad these updates were so lame. Your PowerMac didn't lose much value! Assuming you have a dual 2 GHz, it's worth more than the current dual 2 GHz because it has 8 RAM slots and PCI-X, unlike the current dual 2 GHz which has 4 RAM slots and no PCI-X, just PCI.

This is a nice incrimental step. Dual G5's have enough grunt to do anything you want. The big issue for me is Safari, Tiger, iSync and the damm spinning wheel.

I would rather more attention was paid to software than to hardware. However the hardware priorities are:-

1. Remove the watercooling systems from PM's

2. Get G4's out of all machines eMacs, Powerbooks, Mac Mini's and iBooks.

Great strides are being made and for once Apples market share has started to grow again. I would like then not to be dissapointed by the performance of the Mini which I believe they will be as it is not a great performer even it is a work of art.

[Luca]

I use a mini. It's fine. Not the fastest thing ever, but it's not disappointing at all.

Why are you buying a dual G5 to do Safari and iSync? That's what the Mac mini is for. The reason the PowerMac updates are disappointing isn't because the PowerMacs are slow, but because for the PowerMacs' target audience, an 8% increase in processor speed and token increases in hard drive space are a slap in the face when not accompanied by a price drop. For people who actually make use of a PowerMac's full potential, today's upgrade was simply not enough.

I don't think the iBook or Mac mini will get a G5 any time soon. But I don't think the G4 is holding them back terribly. If Apple would simply give them regular speed bumps while also increasing their other capabilities, I don't think the G4 will be a problem. Their currently shipping systems can't even be used to their full potential. The pitiful 32 MB of VRAM holds back even the slow Radeon 9200, while the 256 MB standard RAM complement makes the system feel as sluggish as a system with less than half the clock speed. I guarantee that bumping the VRAM to 64 MB and the standard system RAM complement to 512 MB would show you twice the performance improvement that another processor bump (to, say, 1.5 GHz) would.

Safari has not had the sort of attention to it to do it justice. So many web site still do not work with it. I suspect thatthe widespread adoption will help bail Apple out of this problem as designers will start to test their sites against Firefox and then they will work with Sfari too.

iSync is something of a joke, there are almost no mobile hones on the market supported by iSync.Don't believe the list on the Apple iSync web site, it is a wish list, as my wife found out to here great loss. Her upgrade phone is sitting unused in a draw while her for year old T600 is in the hand bag.

I use my 2.5 G5 for Photoshop, Quark, Dreamweaver, DVDSP3 etc and it is fine.

You may be happy with your Mac Mini, but this weeks Macworld magazine has a ketter from a reader who "Upgraded" from an 8 or 900mhz G4 PowerMac only to find out that the Mac Mini was no faster. PC switcher will love the lack of viruses, buy won't like the spinng wheel not the slow scrolling, even my Celeron 300mhz laptop "Feels" faster (It isn't) simply because it's GUI is SNAPPIER that my Dual G5!

I own 16 mac's I love them, but I can see both sides of the argument, PC's do have some advantages as well as many faults.

[Luca]

Why would you upgrade from an 800 MHz PowerMac G4 to a Mini? I realize you won't see a speed increase there. For one, the clock speed isn't hugely faster (around 50%, which is enough to help but it doesn't make a world of difference), and it uses a slower hard drive. Basically it'll be about the same. That person obviously didn't make a very smart purchasing decision.

Also, I have a 433 MHz Celeron laptop with 256 MB of RAM and it is definitely slower than the Mac mini in basically everything. Maybe if I loaded a less demanding OS on it, like Windows 98, it would be faster, but then it's not a fair comparison. I agree that PCs sometimes feel faster, but let's not get into extremes.

[Capt. Obvious]

Pioneer's practically giving away 109s these days; I have one arriving tomorrow, and dual-layer, per se, had nothing to do with it. 8x media is starting to clear out: this means 16x is about to get plentiful (and therefore cheap). 8x means I'll be able to do in 15 minutes what now takes me 2 hours w/ my built-in 2x drive (ie, burn & verify a DVD).

[sunrain]

Originally Posted by Addison Safari has not had the sort of attention to it to do it justice. So many web site still do not work with it. I suspect thatthe widespread adoption will help bail Apple out of this problem as designers will start to test their sites against Firefox and then they will work with Sfari too.

Looks like the auto spell check isn't working for you either.

You're right of course that Safari is still problematic for some websites. I think that the increased prominence of Firefox will definitely cure the ills of Safari, but to be honest, a lot of the problems in browsing with Safari are due to the shoddy IE compliant code that's out there.

[jkloos]

Originally Posted by The Return of the 'nut that is completely untrue. Apple puts the latest and greatest into their systems ALL THE TIME when it is available to them to do so. You're argument is completely unfounded. and the whole media before the drive argument is ridiculous. Why was that not a problem when Apple introduced the first Superdrive. Before that day most DVD burners were over 800 dollars and little to no media, especially affordable media, existed outside of professional channels. You know how they handled that? They sold their own media. These latest PowerMacs deserve no defending. It's a shitty overpriced upgrade. They aren't bad, they will perform well, but they are far from a good upgrade and even further from a good deal. When I first went to the Apple Store I saw "prices starting at 1499" and I thought they had cut the low end DP PowerMac to 1499. If they had done that this would have been a good upgrade. And that's the only way this could have been considered a good upgrade

Not completely untrue. I'm sorry to say man the first superdrive was a necessity to the new land of dvd. When professionals purchase systems to do work on they want what's required to do their work on. In the case of video and film guys dvd was new and needed a way to be made on the mac. Or else they would have bought something else. This was also a long time ago and apple is not the apple of old anymore.

Ummm... I somewhat agree with you on the price. But even without the price drop the upgrades are very nice. I can't see how this is a terrible upgrade and I can't see how Luca can say creative people needed more than this. Being one of the people on here who makes money from there computer and doesn't purchase for bragging rights. I can say the upgrades are more than enough. Enought that I'm buying one right after i post this. To me they are well worth the money. Seeing as how I stated before APPLE HAS THE FASTEST 64 BIT PROCCESOR AVAILABLE. THEY ALSO HAVE THE ONLY SYSTEM WITH UP TO 8 GIGS OF RAM. RAM IS WHAT MAKES OR BREAKS A COMPUTER NOT TRINKETS. TIGER CAN NOW FULLY HARNESS THIS 8 GIGS OF RAM. AND FINALLY THERE IS NO PC THAT CAN BEAT THE DUAL 2.7 IN COST OR IN RAW SPEED. IF YOU SAY THAT'S NOT TRUE PROVE IT.

[Corpus_Callosum]

Originally Posted by evane Another way of looking at the Power Mac updates is that this is the evolution (which could indicate slow and steady updates) of a stable platform. Some mac users like that the Power Macs don't change radically with each update. You get a slightly faster machine, but know what to expect. And every few years or so a radical update might occur.

That's right, and it may be that the next chipsets (such as the 970MP and 980) are such jumps that Apple may break into a new product category. By this, I mean that the powermac series may be branched off of into a pro-mac series and a power-mac series. This would make marketing sense and manufacturing sense. Enough has gone into the powermac branding to justify keeping it alive with single and dual processors sporting the heavy-duty alumminum look.

But architectural changes on the inside are needed to get dual-core chips running. When you move to dual-chip/dual-core (Quad core total), the bus will require some work, caching/memory access will require work, etc.. The architecture changes and with that change comes the opportunity for aesthetic changes, branding changes, a new pricing structure and a new target market.

I fully expect the first wave of quad-core (dual chip/dual core) macs to be $4500+, to come with 1Gb standard and to be targeted at the top end of video and audio professionals. These things will probably be quieter and more aesthetic than powermacs in order to appeal to the design sense of media professionals. They probably will also be physically larger and be labeled as workstations. Because it is a new product category, Apple could release these things anytime without regard for powermacs.

Powermacs will still have a significant market, being cheaper than the professional media workstations, they will fill the niche for software developers, high-end mac enthusiasts, gamers and home users as well as being the platform of choice for amateur (or on the dime professional) media development.

Every time a new chip redesign comes out, inevitably the initial yields will be low, until they get comfortable making them. What good would dual cores be to us, if we had to wait 6 months for them to ship?

This is definitely another part of the problem. Even if IBM is shipping 970MPs to Apple, the production is only ramping up and yields are probably not as good as desired. If Apple made an announcement without adequate supply, they would be in the same mess they were when the original 970s were announced. Nobody could get one. That tarnishes Apple's image; It is much better for Apple to horde the chips until they have enough to meet demand and make announcements when they can ship. Apple is learning this lesson and has done spectacularly with the Mac Mini and the iPod Shuffle partly as a result of not prematurely ejaculating...

[Corpus_Callosum]

Originally Posted by jkloos Read it. Apple does not put the latest and greatest into there systems. They will wait until dual core and PCI express aren't just niche products.

I don't really want to make too much out of this, because it is insanely silly, but I think it is prudent to point out that 970MPs cannot become mainstream until Apple makes them mainstream (unless there were other 970MP consumers out there that I didn't know about). Or were you trying to say that Apple wouldn't use dual-core until everyone in the PC universe was already running dual-core?

[RBR]

The point of putting in 16x dual layer burners is that they are so cheap now there is absolutely no excuse for not putting them in and they will be of use during the life of the product without having to pay to replace them.

[evane]

I think it is possible the power mac line may split off to include a higher end. Look at DSLR's. You have definite product lines (like Apple has) and there is a big split between the entry level/prosumer DSLR's (Rebel, D70) the mid level for the pro-am crowd (people aspiring to be pro's or pro's that need a cheap backup, ie 20D, D100) and the high end for the pros (1dMkII,1dsMkII,D2x). This makes a lot of sense. Nikon and Canon have what they call flagship cameras. These are the most expensive, have the highest specs for bragging rights, and the pros that need these to do the work will pay what they cost because it helps them make more money. The same could be said about a super powerful power mac. The specs would give apple bragging rights, and it would be less of an issue that the chip yields are lower, because this would be a high end niche computer that professionals pay a lot for.

The one thing I don't see happening is Apple making a computer with a Jag-normous case. I see some of these gamer cases for the top of the line AMD/Intel with like 8 pci slots and all other crap, and they are the most attrocious cases ever. They're like 3 feet tall practically. Apple still cares about aesthetics. They will make a machine with 970MP and find a good way to cool it. Don't expect a huge case for the same reason that we don't have a G5 powerbook yet (yes, we could have a laptop that's basically the iMac with a keyboard, 2.5 inches thick, and ugly as hell, but why would we want it?)

[holbox]

Originally Posted by Luca holbox, you should be glad these updates were so lame. Your PowerMac didn't lose much value! Assuming you have a dual 2 GHz, it's worth more than the current dual 2 GHz because it has 8 RAM slots and PCI-X, unlike the current dual 2 GHz which has 4 RAM slots and no PCI-X, just PCI.

Yeh ...... I saw that.

I upgraded the video card and got the 250 gb hard drive. Put 2.5 gb ram in it.

I'm happy as hell. My only sigh was that I could have saved $200 on the 20" monitor and the current dual 2 GHz would have had enough ram space for what I want and is less $$$ too.

But, I really do love this machine and enjoy every minute I spend fooling with it. Does everything I use a computer for in style. Maybe someday I'll even learn to use all it's features.

Absolutely no bitch on my part.