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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-24, 13:58

Hey all, apparently I need to learn Adobe Flex for work. (I suggested AJAX, perhaps a nice Cappuccino, but no go. I feel so... dirty.)

Any suggested resources from the combined web hoodoo wizards on these here boards?
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2009-03-24, 14:12

The adobe documentation is pretty good. You'll learn to love Adobe flex. It uses many of the communication methods of Ajax. It takes the pain in the rear out of client side coding.

...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics...
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2009-03-24, 14:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial View Post
You'll learn to love Adobe flex. It uses many of the communication methods of Ajax.
What exactly constitutes those "communication methods of Ajax"? HTTP? Passing XML over HTTP? Serializing or deserializing JSON?
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-24, 14:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial View Post
The adobe documentation is pretty good. You'll learn to love Adobe flex. It uses many of the communication methods of Ajax. It takes the pain in the rear out of client side coding.
Given Adobe's track record with Flash implementation on the Mac, I'm really pretty skeptical of their ability to produce an efficient deployment mechanism for anything else, but... I'm willing to be convinced.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2009-03-24, 14:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Hey all, apparently I need to learn Adobe Flex for work.
I feel for your loss, Kickaha. My sincerest grievances.
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-24, 14:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I feel for your loss, Kickaha. My sincerest grievances.
Yeah, that was my gut reaction as well - we have the choice, but we have two Flex cheerleaders going rah rah at us, and I'm still not convinced that either of them is aligned with what the Powers Whut Be who *actually* make the decisions want. It feels like a win by fiat for the Flex folks. "Oh well, everyone's using it now, too late to change..."

Pewp.

Maybe I can learn Cappuccino on the side and work it in instead.
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2009-03-24, 15:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
What exactly constitutes those "communication methods of Ajax"? HTTP? Passing XML over HTTP? Serializing or deserializing JSON?
I consider any form of asynchronous communication with a server to be ajax these days. That seems to be the 'new' definition of it, versus using strictly xml. I prefer to use JSON myself, but Flex doesn't have built in JSON support as of 3.0. They may have added to 3.3.0. I use the open-source AS3Lib or AS3CoreLib library file.

I really like Flex. It is WAY more mature imo than a product like Dojo for my client side utility.

...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics...
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2009-03-24, 15:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial View Post
I consider any form of asynchronous communication with a server to be ajax these days.
You heard it here first: even PPP can be Ajax!

I realize a lot of managers are mentally incapable of not abusing technological terms as buzzwords, but I expect a little bit more accuracy in Programmer's Nook. AJAX is enough of a loaded term as it is (since it very frequently doesn't involve XML at all), but while Flex may have asynchronous data transfers that can be used for similar goals as AJAX can, I object to using the term anywhere outside JS/DOM.
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-24, 15:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial View Post
I consider any form of asynchronous communication with a server to be ajax these days. That seems to be the 'new' definition of it, versus using strictly xml. I prefer to use JSON myself, but Flex doesn't have built in JSON support as of 3.0. They may have added to 3.3.0. I use the open-source AS3Lib or AS3CoreLib library file.

I really like Flex. It is WAY more mature imo than a product like Dojo for my client side utility.
I just have a problem with running it in a &*(%@$@ Flash plugin - only freaking thing on my Mac that causes the fans to go nuts. Just insane.

JavaScript FTW, but it looks like I may have lost this particular tech battle at work, dammit.

So, given that I'm not looking forward to this... what resources would you recommend, Partial? I want to get up to speed as fast as possible, so I can get this out the door, and not have to deal with it for a moment longer than necessary.
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2009-03-24, 16:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I just have a problem with running it in a &*(%@$@ Flash plugin - only freaking thing on my Mac that causes the fans to go nuts. Just insane.

JavaScript FTW, but it looks like I may have lost this particular tech battle at work, dammit.
Yeah, it's sad to say that I'd probably never look twice at whatever you'll be working on. Flash has become such a nuisance that I leave it off (via the ClickToFlash plugin) for all but the killerest of killer apps (mostly just online video sites and the occasional game).

It disheartens me that we've just recently expanded from one place to two where we use Flash/Flex at my job, too. I'm just glad that Microsoft seems to have refocused on pulling IE out of the waste bin so maybe web developers won't have to special case so much for it. Maybe once IE6 has completely dropped off the radar and IE7 is following it we'll have a more stable/compatible platform for DOM/JavaScript/etc.

/digress *sigh*

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2009-03-24, 16:55

Kick, I will get back to you when I head into work tomorrow. A few of the guys swear by some of the books, but I've been able to get up to speed by Googling for the most part and RTFMing the adobe content. They have a really well documented API, and they have really high quality livedocs with good examples free of charge.

I guess I don't see the problem with the flash player that some of you guys do. I like it! It runs well on my Mac, and because its running in the proprietary player it gets rid of some of the IE6/IE7 headaches.

The complaint I used to have was when navigating a flash app it would break the back button, but that is no longer the case using some open source tools.

I think you'll really like writing flex code. As noted above, I've had a much easier time with Flex than dojo because of the quality of documentation. It's definitely commercial quality compared to Dojo, which is lacking to say the least.

...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics...
  quote
Partial
Stallion
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Milwaukee
 
2009-03-24, 16:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
You heard it here first: even PPP can be Ajax!

I realize a lot of managers are mentally incapable of not abusing technological terms as buzzwords, but I expect a little bit more accuracy in Programmer's Nook. AJAX is enough of a loaded term as it is (since it very frequently doesn't involve XML at all), but while Flex may have asynchronous data transfers that can be used for similar goals as AJAX can, I object to using the term anywhere outside JS/DOM.
Well, to be fair, you essentially are using the dom, as you're essentially using the mxml structure as a dom. Plus, AS3 compiles down into ECMA scripting is my understanding, so you're kind of using javascript as well I agree though, Ajax is a buzz word used far too often.

...and calling/e-mailing/texting ex-girlfriends on the off-chance they'll invite you over for some "old time's sake" no-strings couch gymnastics...
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-24, 17:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial View Post
Kick, I will get back to you when I head into work tomorrow. A few of the guys swear by some of the books, but I've been able to get up to speed by Googling for the most part and RTFMing the adobe content. They have a really well documented API, and they have really high quality livedocs with good examples free of charge.

I guess I don't see the problem with the flash player that some of you guys do. I like it! It runs well on my Mac, and because its running in the proprietary player it gets rid of some of the IE6/IE7 headaches.


A stupid little Flash game, with fricking *SPRITES* will cause my MBP fans to kick on full in a couple of minutes of use. Seriously, how fucking horrible does the Flash implementation have to be to cause that?

I just went through and watched a couple of the Flex tutorial vids at O'Reilly... and they stutter so bad they're almost unwatchable. This on a 4GB RAM dual core MBP, on about as fat a corporate pipe to teh intarwebs as you could hope for.

That's just video. Video is easy. Video is simple. Playing video should not cause a high end laptop to drop to its knees.

Flash SUCKS from the user point of view, plain and simple. I go out of my way to avoid web sites that use it, it's that bad.

The fact that, as you state above, it is popular because you're trying to avoid *bugs in another proprietary product* is just *pathetic*, IMO.

Flash would have no real reason to exist, if MS had simply done IE to standards in the first place.

Quote:
The complaint I used to have was when navigating a flash app it would break the back button, but that is no longer the case using some open source tools.
See, that right there. Why the HELL should a Flash anything on a web page *BREAK THE BROWSER*?!? And furthermore, why should a 'commercial quality' system need to rely on open source hacks to fix??

Quote:
I think you'll really like writing flex code. As noted above, I've had a much easier time with Flex than dojo because of the quality of documentation. It's definitely commercial quality compared to Dojo, which is lacking to say the least.
Understood - but I have this funny thing about supporting good technologies, and Flash is not it, in any way shape or form. I'm sure it's easy to write. That doesn't mean it's good.

What I'm more interested in is Cappuccino and SproutCore. Dojo looks like a mess, to be honest.

But... I do appreciate any resources you can send me to. I may not like this decision, and I may not agree with it, but it looks like I'll have to abide with it for now.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2009-03-24 at 17:15.
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-25, 16:09

Partial, thanks for the offer, but it looks like I actually won this round after all. We're going with AJAX, and I'm investigating SproutCore/RedBull now. *happy dance*
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synotic
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2009-03-26, 14:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Partial, thanks for the offer, but it looks like I actually won this round after all. We're going with AJAX, and I'm investigating SproutCore/RedBull now. *happy dance*
What are your thoughts about SproutCore/RedBull vs. Cappuccino/Atlas? Just curious .
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2009-03-26, 14:32

Atlas isn't out yet, and I can't get RedBull to run on the most recent SproutCore build, soooooooo... no idea.

In principle, Atlas looks more polished, obviously closer to IB, and Cappuccino/Obj-J are designed to be familiar to Cocoa/Obj-C developers. OTOH, RedBull (if it takes off) will give the SproutCore folks a *serious* leap up in speed of execution, and SC has some very nice features. Well, until I find the bugs in the implementation...

It looks like, due to the requirements of the server apps we're hooking into, an AJAX system with specific Flex rendering canvases may be what we do - AJAX for the general system, Flex for specific pain points when we can't find what we need.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2009-03-26 at 14:46.
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