[Miko]

Well the product updates keep coming over at CES. Just read an article about the Palm Pre which I have to say doesn't look bad in those pics. Too bad it won't have the 3rd party dev and eco-sphear to match iPhone.

[Partial]

Sexy. Unbelievably fluid. iPhone killer - unlikely since the iPhone has its ginormous foot in the door for over a year now, but I am very excited at the thought of being able to have a quality touchscreen phone like this without having to give up my SERO plan.

The phone looks really nice, and the OS looks really fast!! The WebKit browser looks awesome!!

This thing has got me fired up to say the least. Can't wait for a Sprint phone to have this.

[Kickaha]

Very nice... this may finally be the competition the iPhone has needed.

[Miko]

Yea This is good keep Apple on their feet. A quick video review, I think Apple could learn something about that global search and app launch feature so you can access information fast right from the keyboard. I smell Spotlight coming to the next iPhone.

[Partial]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/p...ds-on-gallery/

Here is the engadget link. It looks very iPhone-ish. No doubt about it. I love that its smaller than the iPhone (not sure about thickness) and still has the physical qwerty. Also very glad it's not a landscape qwertypad.

This thing really looks snappy. I'm excited! Are you excited? Get excited! Competition is a good thing for Apple. It looks like their mobile browser is now in second place. Hopefully, they come out and spank the pants off of Palm.

[Yonzie]

IMHO it's kinda ugly, looks a bit like a toy.

Anyhow, Palm is back in the OS game, saved on the brink of falling off into the WinMo ravine... Wow. Let's hope they don't fuck it up again.

[Axl]

This thing is hot! Finally someone out-innovated Apple; worthy of the being an i* killer.

http://i.gizmodo.com/5126702/palm-pr...simply-amazing

[Kraetos]

Color me impressed.

Originally Posted by Partial Sexy. Unbelievably fluid. iPhone killer - unlikely since the iPhone has its ginormous foot in the door for over a year now, but I am very excited at the thought of being able to have a quality touchscreen phone like this without having to give up my SERO plan. The phone looks really nice, and the OS looks really fast!! The WebKit browser looks awesome!!

Originally Posted by Partial Here is the engadget link. It looks very iPhone-ish. No doubt about it. I love that its smaller than the iPhone (not sure about thickness) and still has the physical qwerty. Also very glad it's not a landscape qwertypad.

You are very correct. This looks to be the first real competition for iPhone.

But lets not get ahead of ourselves. There are a lot of variables here.

Concerns:

First, let's talk about the dimensions. The iPhone just shy of 5mm thinner, but in your pocket, 5mm is a big difference. My general rule of thumb is that any given device needs to be less than 12mm thick and less than 150 grams. I decided on this mostly from experience, having been a gadget geek for years. The Pre meets the second qualifier, but not the first.

Sizeasy Link

However, the jump from the iPhone 2G to the 3G taught me this: I imagine a device could be up to 15mm thick and still fit comfortably in your pocket, assuming that the edges are tapered perfectly. iPhone 3G is 12.3mm deep, and the Pre is 16.95mm. That puts the Pre just above my new theoretical depth requirement, but just like the iPhone 3G, the curves on the Pre are very nice looking, and that could make all the difference. I'm skeptical about the 17mm depth, but it's a sacrifice that must be made for the hardware keyboard, and it's a sacrifice that many would be willing to make. Based on the gallery, I think it's more likely than not that the precise curves and tapered edges will give the Pre the same solid feel the iPhone 3G does.

Second, I worry that the Pre might suffer from featureitis. The Pre certainly does a lot - more than the iPhone. However, it's easy to clutter up an interface and its difficult to gauge the quality of an interface from just screenshots or controlled videos. Palm, however, is most certainly the original mobile device interface champion, and again, I think it's more likely than not the interface is in fact somewhere between only slightly inferior to Touch OS X... and it appears to me that webOS has the potential to be superior to Touch OS X.

Third, I worry about syncing. Palm Desktop started very strong but degraded over time as features were added. It is essential that along with webOS, the Pre syncing application is a complete rework from Palm Desktop as it stands today. Now that the iTunes Store is DRM-free, Palm would be smart to integrate whatever syncing app they create to interface with iTunes.

Fourth, Palm couldn't have picked a worse network. Sprint is very much bringing up the rear right now, behind AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile, in that order. The Pre is on CDMA and Sprint has shown no initiative to get on LTS which means they either release a UMTS version, or the Pre dies with Sprint.

Fifth, I am skeptical about performance. The Pre uses CDMA which means larger, more battery consuming internal circuitry, in addition to having the hardware keyboard consuming a lot of space. Either they've found a processor which is nothing short of a breakthrough with regards to processing power and heat dissipation, or the Pre will be prohibitively slow.

Finally, I worry about vaporware. Remember the Nuviphone, which has not and probably will never materialize? The odds that the Pre will eventually make it to market are much, much higher, but the problem is, can it make it before July? I doubt it, I think we are looking at a October-November release here, which means the Pre will be up against Touch OS 3.0.

What I like:

Multitouch. The fact that the Bold, Instinct, etc. were simple touchscreen phones was a key reason to their poor reception. If the multitouch is as good as iPhone's, then we have a real winner on our hands here. Curiously, the Pre specs page only says it's a touch screen, but given that all the coverage of the Pre cites it is a multitouch screen, I'm going with that.

WebKit. WebKit is the future of browsing. It's fast, it's accurate, it's compact. Palm couldn't have made a better choice.

Hardware keyboard. I have no plans to abandon a software keyboard, but many will never use anything but something with tactile feedback. +1 for Palm for managing to set themselves apart from iPhone without making huge volume and weight sacrifices.

Screen. 3.1 inches is very impressive, and 320x480 resolution puts it on par with iPhone.

IMAP and ActiveSync push capability. Really, there was no other choice here, and they nailed it.

MMS: I'm mixed on this one; I would like nothing more than to see MMS die, but most people expect MMS and and it's one of the largest cited complaints of the iPhone.

General look and feel: Good font, good design, and just the general overall look of the thing looks promising.

What I really like:

Bluetooth Tethering: fantastic. Apple and AT&T really need to get on the ball for this one.

Multitasking and global search: Again, iPhone killers. iPhone OS v3 will almost certainly have Spotlight functionality, but multitasking is not a sure thing.

The problem (see above) is that this is going to require serious horsepower to work. We're gonna have to wait for CPU and RAM specs before we can be sure about this one.

Notification bar: when iPhone interupts whatever I'm doing for a new text notification, I get annoyed. I hadn't yet thought of a solution, but apparently Palm has. Bravo.

I really want to know more about how it works. I assume that the Pre has some sort of lock screen, and notifications will show up there. Ideally, that little black arrow in the bottom right corner provides quick access to the notification bar, because the full bar view is not persistent. If the little arrow displays a dot like iPhone does when it's notifying you of new information, that would be perfect.

(Probably) dedicated syncing app: iTunes is a bloated, terrible application. A Palm desktop app that interfaces with music, movies, contacts, etc. would blow iTunes out of the water.

Competition is a good thing for Apple.

Damn straight.

[torifile]

It looks good but I doubt Palm can pull it off. Word is it'll be priced higher than the iPhone. And Palm has an awful track record. I think it'll end up being vaporware, honestly.

[Yonzie]

Palm's stock price. No need for comments.

[Partial]

Originally Posted by torifile It looks good but I doubt Palm can pull it off. Word is it'll be priced higher than the iPhone. And Palm has an awful track record. I think it'll end up being vaporware, honestly.

Right.

And I'm sure if Apple put it out it'd be the second coming. They just displayed near production hardware and WOW'd everyone.

Vaporware? How the heck can you make a ludacris conclusion like that?

Kraetos, there is no reason to believe that they won't make a GSM and Verizon CDMA version. I mean it is a software stack, I doubt it will be difficult for them to port at all. But, perhaps I'm wrong. I don't know any of the details of its implementation.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Yonzie Palm's stock price. No need for comments.

I should refer people to my top tip in the Closet Day Traders thread... I am off to work for a bank. Gordon Gekko here I come!!

I hope it's not as good as it looks like it might be, because I have memories of the hell of living in Treo land, and wishing for an Apple Phone....

I will be sure to go check out the iPhone Nanos in Bangkok before I make any final decision!

[Partial]

Damn, wish I would have bought a grand of Palm and flipped it. I've got some sitting in GM right now as well. Paying tuition on stocks is money

[chucker]

It looks like the first serious contender. That said, web apps as the only API? And why has Colligan not been dumped yet?

[Bryson]

I'm impressed, given the serious, serious kicking they've been taking lately, that they resisted the urge to leak the hell out of this, just to prop them up for a while.

It's amazing that the Foleo and the Pre come from the same company, no?


Web Apps as the API? Where have we heard that before?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Partial Kraetos, there is no reason to believe that they won't make a GSM and Verizon CDMA version.

There's no reason to believe they will, either.

Once it's clear to Palm that converting to UMTS is a do-or-die situation, I imagine that they'll hop on the train. But they should have figured this out out long, long ago. It's incredibly foolish of Palm to put all their eggs in the CDMA basket, because CDMA has five years max of life left in it.

Even if Palm figures this out relatively soon, they'll have to dedicate thousands of man-hours to getting it done; man-hours that would be much better spent improving the phone rather than playing catch-up.

This is easily the worst decision Palm has made about the Pre thus far, and potentially a fatal one. Not only would making a UMTS phone mean a slimmer, lighter, faster, power-efficient phone with better battery life today, it means they don't have to put in a whole lot of unnecessary work two or three years down the road.

I mean it is a software stack, I doubt it will be difficult for them to port at all. But, perhaps I'm wrong. I don't know any of the details of its implementation.

No, it's not. Shifting from CDMA to UTMS requires a massive reworking of the internal hardware. Phones that move between from one to the other only do so after being completely internally reengineered; this typically takes years. If it was really that easy, don't you think that most phones would be cross-network?

Originally Posted by Partial Vaporware? How the heck can you make a ludacris conclusion like that?

No release date. No internal specs. Unrealistic software performance given the hardware currently available. Palm has a reputation for vaporware. I don't believe this thing is as close to production as they want us to believe; it's entirely possible that the prototypes we've seen are more incomplete than they appear. If we had a month for release date, I'd buy it. But six months? Way too big a range for them to be close. It's not in any way unrealistic to think this is vaporware.

I, personally, do think the Pre will see the light of day. If Palm doesn't make the Pre happen, they're dead, so the motivation is certainly there. But I don't believe for one second they'll hit their first half of 2009 release date. More likely is first half of 2010.

It would have been a whole lot smarter for Palm to wait until the last possible second to unveil this thing. By jumping the gun, they've simply handed a bunch of great UI improvements to Apple on a silver platter. Sure, we're all impressed by the Pre right now, but the Pre will be going head-to-head with iPhone v3, and given that Apple has already done the legwork of getting iPhone over to 3G, I expect a very significant upgrade to 3.0.

[Robo]

Palm has a reputation for vaporware? What vaporware? The Foleo? They only decided to cancel that because the press hated it so much (and, admittedly, they were right in that they needed to focus on their phones). What other vaporware have they announced? One device (that was actually finished) does not a "reputation for vaporware" make.

The Pre has a release window (H1 2009) and a carrier (Sprint). Both parties involved have already started marketing it. A Nuvifone this is not.

And I think it will be $199.

Yay for competition! Android was close, but realistically, an open source project will never deliver the polish needed to compete with Apple. Most companies can't even do that. I think Palm might be able to.

[Partial]

thousands of man hours? To do what exactly? Sure, they can make another phone. I don't see why they would have to rewrite all the applications. I see them having to change the lowest level of code and thats about it. Was is it written in? C? Java? I change imagine it being java as its incredibly responsive.

I would like a source on your "years" to re-engineer statement. Methinks you're talking out of your ass.

Wasn't the iPhone announced at Macworld only to not be available until more than 6 months later? They didn't announce any specs with that, either. Vaporware!

Rofl dude. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I also don't see much logic/factual support in your argument.


What is this UMTS? I've never heard of this before. Why is one assuming CDMA is going to die when the US' biggest and by far most reliable carrier (Verizon) uses it? Sorry for my ignorance, I don't have time to keep on top of all of this stuff.

Things this has that Torifile is jealous of:
- Better nationwide 3G coverage
- 30 dollar SERO plans
- Physical Keyboard
- Picture Messaging
- Bluetooth File Transfer
- Mini-usb jack (mass storage support too)
- Stereo Bluetooth
- Promised Video recording
- 3MP camera
- LED notification flash
- Turn by Turn GPS
- Removeable Battery
- Copy
- Paste
- Universal search

[Robo]

CDMA is going to die because Verizon is moving to LTE and Sprint is moving to WiMAX. But this is long, long term stuff. To say that the current version of the Pre is doomed because it does not support LTE/WiMAX/whatever is kind of silly.

[torifile]

Vaporware and Palm - See Palm OS 6. It's like the Duke Nukem Forever of mobile operating systems.

My question is this: how is it that there was never any word of this "webOS" thing? For years, all we ever heard about was the Palm Access platform or whatever. Now this comes out of the blue? I don't know. As Kraetos said, no release date and no price makes me very skeptical.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Roboman The Foleo? They only decided to cancel that because the press hated it so much

"Hated it so much"? Surely you're not suggesting that Palm invests millions into developing a product and then throws it all away based solely on "well, gee, those meanies didn't like it "? Isn't it rather that the rampant criticism made them realize that they hadn't thought the thing through?

Yay for competition!

That I can agree with. Comments like "Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product?", on the other hand, I can't. This is from the same guy who said that Apple is "not just going to walk in" to the cellphone business.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by torifile Vaporware and Palm - See Palm OS 6. It's like the Duke Nukem Forever of mobile operating systems.

That's PalmSource though, not Palm. They haven't been the same company for a while.

My question is this: how is it that there was never any word of this "webOS" thing? For years, all we ever heard about was the Palm Access platform or whatever. Now this comes out of the blue? I don't know. As Kraetos said, no release date and no price makes me very skeptical.

Again, ACCESS is PalmSource, not Palm. Palm had licensed Palm OS 5 from PalmSource and then moved over to Windows Mobile for some of its devices; and now it's doing "webOS", whatever that's supposed to be beyond just a fancy browser.

[Mugge]

It looks like a fat iPhone.

[nikstar101]

I see i a bit of a problem with this deivce. I agree that Palms choice of CDMA is poor. If you think US only then its fine, but as i understand it most of europe don't use this system. Therefore i assume i cannot work here??

Other than that it seems a good device. Certainly comparable to the iPhone. The big question is will the mass consumer like it??

[Yonzie]

Originally Posted by Partial What is this UMTS? I've never heard of this before. Why is one assuming CDMA is going to die when the US' biggest and by far most reliable carrier (Verizon) uses it?

UMTS is the 3G part in the iPhone 3G. CDMA is going to die because GSM (and children) is slowly taking over. CDMA is used primarily in the US and some parts of asia, so from a US-centric POV, CDMA is great. From a world-centric POV, GSM rawks.

Originally Posted by nikstar101 I agree that Palms choice of CDMA is poor. If you think US only then its fine, but as i understand it most of europe don't use this system.

More like NONE of Europe. (Except for small enclaves in eastern europe)

[Partial]

Originally Posted by torifile Vaporware and Palm - See Palm OS 6. It's like the Duke Nukem Forever of mobile operating systems. My question is this: how is it that there was never any word of this "webOS" thing? For years, all we ever heard about was the Palm Access platform or whatever. Now this comes out of the blue? I don't know. As Kraetos said, no release date and no price makes me very skeptical.

What the hell are you talking about? Clearly you don't read engadget. The rumors of Palms' next gen OS have been around for a few years now. This is the successor to Garnet that has been heavily rumored! This is not out of the blue. This was an extremely expected announcement. I didn't know it would be so spectacular, though.

Historically Palm launches devices with Sprint (Centro, the new Treos), then spreads them out to other carriers within 6 months to a year. See the GSM Centro, for example. This thing will be on all the carriers fairly soon. I've got to believe the new leadership at Palm is more forward thinking than Kraetos is giving them credit for.

[kieran]

I'm starting to believe that Partial will hype up anything that comes along as long as it will compete with Apple.

Just throwing that out there...

[Partial]

I personally think its too little too late to take down the iPhone. But with stock a mere few bucks, and without a quality CDMA smart phone, this thing is going to sell like hotcakes for Palm and make them oodles of money.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Partial This is the successor to Garnet that has been heavily rumored!

Given that Garnet OS (née Palm OS 5) is a PalmSource product, whereas Palm Pre is a Palm, Inc. one, it's not really a "successor".

PalmSource's Garnet OS successor will be their weird Access Linux platform nobody cares about.

[Partial]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/09/p...irst-half-too/

Bam. Eurpean version coming out in the first half as well. That means they are probably just as far along with the GSM 3G version.

1000s of hours, right Kraet? Rofl duderino. I knew you were pulling that out of your ass.