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Ryan
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2014-07-17, 11:02

Here we go again.

Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine

Speculation that Ukrainian separatist forces may have shot down the aircraft but it seems unlikely that they'd hit a jet at cruising altitude. 295 on board.

Also, today is the anniversary of TWA800.

Last edited by Ryan : 2014-07-17 at 11:41.
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torifile
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2014-07-17, 12:11

The moral of the story is don't fly Malaysia Airlines.
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kscherer
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2014-07-17, 12:56

Not sure I buy the "shot down" angle (sounds like warhawks preaching, to me). What I would be looking for is a connection between MH370 and MH17. Perhaps these planes (through consistent and similar maintenance practices) suffered the same fate?

In other words, if MH17 fell out of the sky, and they discover the reason, I would ground the entire Malaysian Airlines 777 fleet and have a serious discussion and inspection. Perhaps MH17 was plagued by the same problem that doomed MH370?

First look: Check for obvious missile damage. Upon conclusion, either A) Obvious missile damage and you pursue the culprits; or B) Obviously not missile damage and you ground MA's fleet (and perhaps all 777's) and inspect for a common problem that may answer more questions and bring an end to MH370 and perhaps save a chunk of humans in the future.

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Ryan
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2014-07-17, 13:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by torifile View Post
The moral of the story is don't fly Malaysia Airlines.
Not really. If it was shot down, it's not MH's fault. Lots of other airlines had aircraft on the same flight path including Lufthansa and Singapore. SQ333 CDG-SIN was just a few miles from MH17 when it lost radar contact.

Flying over war zones is actually very common. United flew directly over much of Iraq during the invasion on their Washington-Kuwait flight. Reports are that during the worst of the fighting passengers could actually see the burning oil fields below. Also, most flights from the US and Europe to India fly over Afghanistan.
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kscherer
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2014-07-17, 13:52

Ryan, if it is determined that long-range SAMs are being used (required to shoot down a 600mph plane at 35,000 feet) then that practice will come to a screeching halt!

No airline on the planet will continue to overfly a war zone if some yahoos in it are shooting down airliners. The financial collateral damage would be catastrophic to even the largest airlines. Lufthansa already rerouted planes just to be safe.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Elysium
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2014-07-17, 13:56

It's being reported that the scattered debris field suggests that the plane broke up in the air rather than simply falling out of the sky. MH370 hit the ocean somewhere intact well off it's proposed flight path. The only connection between the two is that they are air disasters belonging to a common carrier.

MH17 likely disintigrated in mid-air due to:
  • mechanical failure (plausible with an unfortunate circumstance being over a war zone when it occurred)
  • missile of some kind (plausible, but unlikely)
  • terrorist attack deliberately conducted on a high profile target purposely over that particular region (plausible, and suspiciously likely)

Formerly known as cynical_rock
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
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2014-07-17, 15:35

Didn't take long for cable news to distinguish itself.
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Brave Ulysses
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2014-07-17, 16:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Didn't take long for cable news to distinguish itself.
That's just sad from all angles. Sad for MSNBC, and pathetic on that guy's end.

Humans suck.
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kscherer
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2014-07-17, 16:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
Humans suck.
I was trying to figure out a way to put it, but I think you pretty well nailed.
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addison
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2014-07-17, 17:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses View Post
That's just sad from all angles. Sad for MSNBC, and pathetic on that guy's end.

Humans suck.
Maybe these "news" organizations need to expand their hiring criteria beyond appearance.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2014-07-17, 17:22

It is looking like it was the separatists that had a BUK SAM system that shot it down thinking it was an AN-26 transport plane.

http://i.imgur.com/IMaKN3h.jpg

Translated:

Quote:
AN-26 airplane was shot down near Torez, it fell somewhere behind the mine "Progress".

We warned - do not fly in "our sky".

And here is the video proof of another "bird-fall" (bird = slang for an airplane).

Another bird fell behind the spoil tip, residential areas were not affected.

No civilians were harmed.
The BUK supposedly being moved out of the area after the mistake....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU5NSSzYygk

And the group saying they had a BUK in their possession....

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...48037629018112

giggity
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2014-07-17, 17:36

Why would Malaysian Airlines fly through what is basically a war zone? Seems kind of dumb.
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kscherer
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2014-07-17, 17:52

According to the Wik, that system has the range (20 miles) to do the trick.

But "supposedly" is a really big word.

It will suck if this was simply "friendly fire" and a complete mis-judgement on the part of the rebels. But, and I say this with caution, I would rather it be an "accident" as opposed to someone blatantly shooting down airliners.

At least an accidental shooting can be excused. After all, it is a war zone.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Elysium
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2014-07-17, 19:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
At least an accidental shooting can be excused. After all, it is a war zone.
There is no accident to shooting down an airliner at 35,000 ft in a highly trafficked flight route.
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kscherer
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2014-07-17, 21:35

This wouldn't be the first time an airliner has been shot down while being mistaken for a tactical aircraft.

Just saying.

The point here is that the most sophisticated and technologically advanced military in world history blew it and shot down a civilian aircraft. I can't imagine a bunch of rebels operating unfamiliar equipment would do much better.

Also, I find it amusing that our politicians have promised "hell to pay" if Russia shot the plane down. I wonder, will there still be "hell to pay" if Ukraine shot it down?

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Ryan
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2014-07-17, 22:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
This wouldn't be the first time an airliner has been shot down while being mistaken for a tactical aircraft.

Just saying.

The point here is that the most sophisticated and technologically advanced military in world history blew it and shot down a civilian aircraft. I can't imagine a bunch of rebels operating unfamiliar equipment would do much better.

Also, I find it amusing that our politicians have promised "hell to pay" if Russia shot the plane down. I wonder, will there still be "hell to pay" if Ukraine shot it down?
There's also KAL007 shot down by the Soviets over Kamchatka. That one even killed a Congressman IIRC but there was no hell to pay then.
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Brave Ulysses
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2014-07-17, 22:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Maybe these "news" organizations need to expand their hiring criteria beyond appearance.
huh? it's not like it was the anchor's fault. she is just doing her job.

stupid thing to highlight at this point anyway, yea, cable news sucks... all around... they got pranked... who cares.
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Brave Ulysses
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2014-07-17, 22:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
This wouldn't be the first time an airliner has been shot down while being mistaken for a tactical aircraft.

Just saying.

The point here is that the most sophisticated and technologically advanced military in world history blew it and shot down a civilian aircraft. I can't imagine a bunch of rebels operating unfamiliar equipment would do much better.

Also, I find it amusing that our politicians have promised "hell to pay" if Russia shot the plane down. I wonder, will there still be "hell to pay" if Ukraine shot it down?
Iran Air Flight 655 was no mistake. The US did not blow it and accidentally shot it down. Captain Rogers was a disturbed individual who was looking for a fight and to make a name for himself. It is an awful story in American military history and has been sadly covered up and forgotten far better than you could ever imagine would be possible.
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Dorian Gray
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2014-07-18, 05:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
There is no accident to shooting down an airliner at 35,000 ft in a highly trafficked flight route.
Why do you say that? There can always be mistakes. In this case, I’d say it’s very likely it was a mistake (a criminally negligent one, of course). Knocking international airliners out of the sky doesn’t do anyone’s cause any good. There will be hell to pay, at least by the trigger-happy nutter who issued the command to fire.

What this means for the wider separatist movement, Ukraine, Putin, etc., is anyone’s guess.

… engrossed in such factional acts as dreaming different dreams.
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psmith2.0
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2014-07-18, 09:57

I wish I knew why every time something like this happens - with any sort of a political angle - the conspiracy and "truther" type nutgalls immediately come flying out of the woodwork! It hasn't even been 24 hours, and I'm already reading stuff from certified idiots about how "it didn't happen", it was CGI, "have we actually seen any bodies?", "the wreckage is obviously old jeeps sheet metal from the 70's staged to look like a plane crash", it's really a this-or-that plane, from this-or-that country, carrying this or that individual, and conducting this-or-that secret mission (and everyone onboard was either a plant, decoy or in on it, of course), etc.

I can't imagine living inside those demented heads. Do some people just wake up every single day, look at reality and tangible stuff, and just actively, automatically assume that the complete opposite - no matter how convoluted, logistically impossible and outright insane - has to be "what really happened".

These clowns show up at all the comment/talkback sections of all the news sites, along with YouTube and the rest. Sometimes I think "okay, this is someone pulling a Phil Hendrie kinda goof...playing a character/role for laughs", but no. These folks are legit. They're just wired that way.

If a cow walked in front of them, it would somehow be an illuminati/NWO plot with Jews pulling the strings, and ties to the slave trade, Hollywood, the "gay agenda", school shootings, 9/11, and definitive proof that Obama was born on a space station that was secretly built in 1935 by the Germans (and, of course, Bush gave a llama a BJ at Yale and that's how he became president), etc.

Some demented types, you feel sorry for. Others, you just want to smack, and push down some stairs.

Reading these stories today, I'm reminded why I typically don't follow/obsess on the news anymore...because of the unhinged idiocy that accompanies it. Nothing's ever just "this happened...it's tragic, but here are the facts as we understand them." Oh, hell no...it's always - always - more sinister and orchestrated.

I should've bought stock in Reynolds years ago...they have to be cranking out the tinfoil at record numbers these days.
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Matsu
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2014-07-18, 10:12

Didn't they switch to aluminium years ago? It's leaching into their brains and causing neuritic plaques. Biggest government sanctioned corporate industrial scam in decades. They're in your head, you cannot hide..,
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kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2014-07-18, 12:01

Conspiracies exist. It's up to the individual to determine whether or not the facts support the accusation. I have no problem with conspiracy folks. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. To each his own. One's capacity to believe or not depends on which group of "believe what they tell you" one subscribes to. It really is that simple. Personally, I'm learning to reject anything anyone tells me. Humans are self-serving and cannot be trusted.

For instance, Flight MH17 was clearly shot down by the CIA and pinned on the rebels in order to keep tensions high between the U.S. populace and Russia for the sake of the war machine*.

There. Now that statement can be spread about the interwebs as fact.

See how I did that?

Now, prove me wrong!

* If you believe this, I have a hat to sell you.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Kickaha
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2014-07-18, 13:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I have no problem with conspiracy folks. Doesn't hurt my feelings at all. To each his own.
Depends on whether it's your dad... Mine has slid into the depths of Fox News fueled dementia. I've given up even trying to have a rational conversation with him, because he can always find some way to turn it into a right wing conspiracy nut job rant, no matter how insane.
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addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2014-07-18, 14:23

It's unfortunate that the term "conspiracy theory" has been honed into an epitaph, mostly by politicians and the media, to stifle debate on certain topics. People had been going around for years saying the NSA was spying on a massive scale on Americans, often with quite good research, but they were always brushed off in the end as being conspiratorial. If it wasn't for Snowden they would still be brushing it off as a conspiracy. Obviously there is a cottage industry that caters to outrageous theories and is run by people who are looking for attention or money or who have some angle but we shouldn't be so close to the point where one mention of the word conspiracy can practically shut a story down some times.

Obviously this plane was shot down by mistake and was not faked though stunts like that and much more were thought up a long time ago by none other than the US Military and presented to the President for consideration.
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kscherer
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2014-07-18, 14:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
Depends on whether it's your dad... Mine has slid into the depths of Fox News fueled dementia. I've given up even trying to have a rational conversation with him, because he can always find some way to turn it into a right wing conspiracy nut job rant, no matter how insane.
Well, I'm not into all that "right wing, left wing" stuff. Both "wings" have lost their minds as far as I'm concerned.

But, yeah. My dad is there, too. I'm sure he's waiting for his favorite rag to point out that midget moon frogs shot this plane down with green lasers and the gubmint is complicit and covering everything up. For me, it doesn't matter who shot it down. I come away with one of two impressions:

1) It was a blunder performed by blundering idiots. But it is a war zone and every airline on Earth will reroute because of it.

2) It was intentional and performed by intentionally blundering idiots. But it is a war zone and every airline on Earth will reroute because of it.

The "who" is of no consequence to me. When nations decide to duke it out, innocents are going to get caught in the crossfire. This has always been one of the affects of war. There has never been a war in the history of mankind where civilians were not caught in the crossfire/deliberately targeted to effect moral. Little kids crossing the street chasing after a puppy get gunned down; old ladies carrying groceries home get run over by tanks; and airliners full of "not my problem" passengers get shot out of the sky.

War is hell.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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Wrao
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2014-07-18, 18:04

We *should* have a problem with conspiracy folks. Thing is, the really big conspiracies(or sort of conspiracies) tend to always get uncovered sooner or later and typically not because some chemtrail, fluoride-as-poison, FEMA camp, FB reactionary does absolutely anything at all to uncover it. More typically, on a day-by-day, case-by-case basis, those attitudes are very specifically destructive and toxic. Further, we *should* have a problem with the modern conspiracy theory industry. Glenn Beck, Alex Jones and increasingly Fox News overall, History Channel...etc. have all turned their attention towards how much money there is in promoting borderline "We're not saying this is true, but wouldn't it be scary if it was?" and "Well you can never be too sure" and "How can you trust (blank), trust (blank that pays me) instead" programming. It's a step beyond bumper-sticker politics, it's mainstream trolling and it does nothing but create problems, and again, these aren't the people who *actually* bust up conspiracies, pretty much ever.

But even if they were, even if giving quarter to CTs was necessary for uncovering them, their hit to miss ratio is so bad that you can only justify it as Stopped clock" righteousness. The NSA, for instance. I'm sure plenty would say they were hip to government spying years ago in a broad sort of sense and try and parlay that as though they were 'right' about the NSA even if they had no actual specific or unique insight into that. More typically the day-by-day cynicism and distrust and paranoia only serves to obfuscate and obstruct anyone trying to get anything done at all, and the rabbit hole knows no depth.

(and I say this as someone who loves a good 'what if' as much as the next internet doofus, but as soon as it creeps out of a harmless recreational mental game and into 'no, seriously, listen to this' territory, I'm out)

The long and short of it is that it winds up taking paragraphs to refute sentences that the people shouting don't even listen to in the first place. This is a bad thing. Bad information is beating out good information under the fog of 'more information'. Conspiracy theorists are 'winning'. More people than ever believe in ludicrous crap and we are not benefitting at all from giving them breathing room or the benefit of the doubt.

/rant


As to the incident with the flight. It is a nightmare. An utter nightmare. I can't really grasp it in a rational way, it's just the type of thing you wish would never happen or have to think about. An inconsolable tragedy the likes of which I can only hope doesn't send already incited factions and powers into further frenzy, and that hopefully those responsible face justice for their actions.
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Jason
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2014-07-19, 12:18

This is what (unfortunately) will happen going forward.

The whole of that area is just one great enormous cluster-fuck with factions within factions - twenty year old kids with a bottle of vodka in one hand and a gun in the other. Communication and organization is appalling and teams are being prevented from entering the crash zone because no-one is in total control.

48 hours means that the perpetrators will have removed vital evidence.

The individuals involved will never be identified.

European Countries will never really punish Russia with sanctions because of economic ties they rely on - Gas Resources, Commerce etc. Politicians will talk and condemn but actions will be non-existent.

It will all just be buried by the next horror story in the news - Gaza probably.

Don't want to sound so negative but that's the reality of it all. Money will always mean more than human life.
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Moogs
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2014-07-19, 19:29

Brad I think we should break this thread off into its own (Ryan's post is near top of page) because it is a completely different situation with completely different consequences that could go far beyond the crash.

Also I am in agreement this is a bad, bad situation. The launcher and probably any missile debris is being removed day by day. Only hope would be the forensics guys could get in there and do some explosives residue evidence collection, evidence of certain metal parts being sheared in a way consistent witha missile hit, etc. But that's less a problem than the launcher which is probably already destroyed, and whoever was operating it, who almost assuredly is safe in Russia and will never be found / brought up on charges.

...into the light of a dark black night.
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Jason
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2014-07-19, 21:24

Lots of reports now of members of the public entering the site and contaminating evidence. People looting belongings, dragging away bodies to undisclosed locations as well as stealing and using credit cards. Militia groups destroying evidence. Bodies left rotting in the heat.

Whole thing is just an a complete humanitarian and political disaster on every conceivable level.

Putin stays silent. He knows European countries need Russia's resources. His plan now will be to just keep playing the blame game until all the fuss dies down and then it will be back to business as usual.

Sad world we live in.
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Moogs
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2014-07-20, 20:14

Putin really is a piece of crap. No other way to describe the man. There are ways of dodging responsibility and being a politician without letting it devolve into this. Most of these "anonymous uniformed militia" who took Crimea and were earlier involved in other parts of the conflict are obviously Russian from head to toe, and have had a strong hand in developing the local militia. They've had a big presence along the border since about April.

If Putin wanted to control these animals, he could. Through his military and contacts, he could reign them in, send regulars into the area to secure order and cordon off the crash zone, and at least give the appearance of giving a shit that the bodies be recovered with some dignity while still denying, etc.

Instead he and his military do nothing but wait for the larger conflict that might break out in Ukraine. Basically wants to split the country in half and take all the areas inhabited by ethnic Russians. Use that river / lake that traverses the country from north to south as a natural boundary...

...into the light of a dark black night.
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