[Anthem]

So I was helping my sister buy a new laptop, and I couldn't help but notice how far out of touch Apple's laptop line is with the rest of the market.

For $1000, my sister got:

A Centrino Pentium M (1.6GHz)
Full wireless (b/g/bluetooth)
60gig 5400rpm drive
dual-layer dvd burner w/ LightScribe
14" widescreen.

Total price was 987, w/ free shipping. Only downside is it runs Windows.

Can we anticipate price drops in the iBook/Powerbook lines?

[awilso]

Originally Posted by Anthem So I was helping my sister buy a new laptop, and I couldn't help but notice how far out of touch Apple's laptop line is with the rest of the market. For $1000, my sister got: A Centrino Pentium M (1.6GHz) Full wireless (b/g/bluetooth) 60gig 5400rpm drive dual-layer dvd burner w/ LightScribe 14" widescreen. Total price was 987, w/ free shipping. Only downside is it runs Windows. Can we anticipate price drops in the iBook/Powerbook lines?

Only question is - how long will it last. Mac lasts longer and works better as you know - so what is the total cost over the lifetime of the product.

$299 bucks more for Apple - Ok its more expensive, but then again is it that much more?

Prices will continue to drop as is tha nature of technology, but if you can get a better price for a better product you will.

Mac is better - hence premium.

[MBHockey]

BMWs are more expensive than Toyotas.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by awilso Only question is - how long will it last. Mac lasts longer and works better as you know - so what is the total cost over the lifetime of the product. $299 bucks more for Apple - Ok its more expensive, but then again is it that much more? Prices will continue to drop as is tha nature of technology, but if you can get a better price for a better product you will. Mac is better - hence premium.

Well, the machine above can go up against the low-end powerbooks and do all right. That's a $500 difference. But then, the 14" iBook does the same thing. This is partially a function of the issues between the ibook and powerbook line... the iBook can't drop because then it will kill even more PB sales than it already is.

Still, "last longer" is a crapshoot. Especially when I can get a 3-year service plan for $180.

I agree that OSX is worlds better than windows, but then so is Ubuntu, which I'd install immediately.

All I'm saying is laptop prices are dropping drastically. Shoot, that model starts at <$500! That trend's only going to continue, and we haven't even seen the Christmas bargains yet.

It just seems like by the time MWSF rolls around, a price cut across the board will be in order.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by MBHockey BMWs are more expensive than Toyotas.

Another unnecessary car/mac analogy.

Start you copy machines, AN.

[JayReding]

I'd think so, but not until the Intel transition. The per-part cost from IBM/Freescale are pretty high compared to what other manufacturers get from Intel/AMD. Plus, chances are that the rest of the parts in those cheapo laptops comes from cut-rate manufacturers like PC Chips.

Apple will always command a price premium, because you're buying a better machine with a better OS and a much better included suite of software. You're also paying the premium that comes with a machine that is designed to have the tightest possible integration of hardware and software. And like always, you get what you pay for...

[awilso]

Originally Posted by Anthem Still, "last longer" is a crapshoot. Especially when I can get a 3-year service plan for $180. .

Yeah but you need a 3 year warranty with the machine, thats the difference, and how demoralising, having to buy something you know is going to need an extended warranty.

I'm not saying Mac doesn't have some Lemons, but on the whole . . .

[vasili]

BMW have a different engine, etc. The components are going to be almost the same.
Besides design what is going to be different in terms of hardware?

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by awilso I'm not saying Mac doesn't have some Lemons, but on the whole . . .

Unfortunately, I just can't really get behind this argument anymore. It seems like in the last 3 years Apple has made some serious gaffes with almost all their product lines, resulting in quite a bit of quality control blunders and defective products.

What else have they done in that time? lowered prices wherever they could. This suggests to me that Apple's standard of quality has lowered somewhat, and that they have started to use cheaper components or cheaper assembly processes or something that has lead to screen issues, battery issues, explosion issues...etc.

While still a relatively small amount, either it's just been getting more news because apple is more popular, or it's indicative of some massive oversights when it comes to Apple's overall quality.

That out of the way. I think Apple will be lowering prices considerably when the intel switch is out of the way. Apple is trying to gain market share, and they won't do that if their machines are $300-500 more than the competition offering less or equal features.

They have been getting more and more aggressive about pricing, to the point where, last powerbook revision, you'd be hard pressed to find a laptop ANYWHERE that offered such a complete and powerful package for that cheap. Of course, that's Apple's world, the PC world catches up 3 months later with new models that are cheaper and whatever.

Most likely, when the intel switch is in effect, powerbook and iBook prices will drop $200-400. That's my guess. Failing that, Apple will do everything they can do to pack them with features, to improve the value and staying power of the computer.

[Wrao]

As far as longevity compared to the PC laptop. One thing everyone has overlooked in this thread is that, regardless of working condition. The PC laptop which cost $1000 today, will sell for ~$400 or 500 a year later, if you're lucky. The Powerbook which cost $1800 today will sell for $1500 a year later.

Apple computers keep their value extraordinarily well, in that regard, they are a little more like an investment, since you can usually always sell and buy around new product times and ultimately not be spending THAT much money to have all the latest tech.

[madmaxmedia]

The lack of progress in IBM-land has really messed up Apple's notebook line. Not only in the top-of-the-line PowerBooks, but in the iBook line as well, as Apple has had to artificially limit the iBook specs to make the PowerBook a better buy.

Things should get a lot better after the Intel Macs come out. Macs will still cost more, but overall value will be good and of course you get OS X.

The iBook line will have similar specs to that machine you just posted. So cost and spec-wise they will be relatively close.

The PowerBook line will get the same specs as the top of the line Windows notebooks, which are still pretty expensive machines. And they should really fly performance-wise, as reviewers do 1-on-1 comparisons with Win notebooks and Mac notebooks running on the same CPU's.

The only area Apple may not compete in is the ultra-budget notebook ($500-$600). Often these are after-rebate prices, closeouts, that sort of thing. Apple tends to avoid that sort of strategy. A side benefit of this for users is that Mac resale value is much better (as last poster pointed out.)

In a year or so, Apple may come out with a budget notebook just as they came out with the Mac Mini.

[psmith2.0]

But what could they leave off to make it "budget" (that wouldn't wind up being a detriment/liability eventually)?

I wouldn't want a computer from Apple that didn't have AirPort, FireWire, Ethernet, iLife and all the rest, at least a Combo Drive, etc.

What makes those $500 PC budget laptops "budget"? What features or functions are omitted? Or are they just less of and lower quality?



(I don't follow PCs, so this isn't a rhetorical question...I truly don't know)

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by Wrao Unfortunately, I just can't really get behind this argument anymore. It seems like in the last 3 years Apple has made some serious gaffes with almost all their product lines, resulting in quite a bit of quality control blunders and defective products.

I can't get behind the higher quality control argument either. I've bought 3 Macs since 2001 and all 3 of them have had to go back to Apple for hardware repair. My 2001 TiBook 500 had the DVD and HD replaced. My 2003 AlBook 15" had the white spot issue and now has the uneven lighting issue. My 2004 iMac G5 20" went back once and has to go back again at some future point to get its overheating issues fixed.

Of course, all 3 machines were Rev A models so I've definitely learned my lesson. No more Rev A machines for me.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 But what could they leave off to make it "budget" (that wouldn't wind up being a detriment/liability eventually)? I wouldn't want a computer from Apple that didn't have AirPort, FireWire, Ethernet, iLife and all the rest, at least a Combo Drive, etc. What makes those $500 PC budget laptops "budget"? What features or functions are omitted? Or are they just less of and lower quality? (I don't follow PCs, so this isn't a rhetorical question...I truly don't know)

Well, there's the whole shared graphics chipset thing. Also, low end laptops come with 40GB hard drives, CD-ROM or DVD-ROM optical drives (upcharge in order to burn stuff), shorter lasting batteries (upcharge to get good battery), no bluetooth, only 256MB RAM, 1024x768 14" screens, etc.

Basically, if the corner could be cut, it was on the cheapo models.

[Luca]

Dell has a $499 notebook. This is what you get:

1.4 GHz Celeron M processor
14.1" screen, 1024x768
256 MB RAM (plus one free RAM slot)
40 GB hard drive
Combo drive
64 MB shared graphics (blech)
Advertised 2.5 hour battery life
1.46" thick, 6.33 lbs
Perhaps most importantly, it comes with a 90 day warranty.

Here's what you don't get:

Bluetooth as an option
Internal wireless networking - you can buy a PCMCIA wireless card for $35 from Dell, but it will use up the system's only PCMCIA slot, and it will also stick out of the side
A video chipset with dedicated VRAM
DVD burner as an option
Larger hard drive options

[Wrao]

That dell notebook also has a really shitty trackpad and a really shitty keyboard. I feel neutered when I use it(my mom has one)

[kscherer]

Plus, you get a generic, cheap, plastic case with lots of protrusions; murphoid, tray-load drives; low-quality LCD screens; poorly designed hinges; cheap, easily broken keyboards; blah, blah, blah.

It's a long list of stuff. And we haven't even discussed the lack of quality software.

[psmith2.0]

Well then I don't think Apple should be getting into that area. They're a "mystery" enough to many people already. They don't need to put out a purposely low-quality, "cheapo" machine.

It won't help them one bit, at the end of the day. In fact, it'll hurt them.

If they could do it and still maintain slickness and quality, fine. But let's be realistic: it's Apple, and it ain't gonna cost $499. May as well get the $999 iBook and not compromise, and have all the ports and features you'd want. And feel good about it.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by kscherer Plus, you get a generic, cheap, plastic case with lots of protrusions; murphoid, tray-load drives; low-quality LCD screens; poorly designed hinges; cheap, easily broken keyboards; blah, blah, blah. It's a long list of stuff. And we haven't even discussed the lack of quality software.

Truly. I tried to convince my mom to get an ibook, since I'd be able to provide her with much greater tech support, and ultimately, it would likely suit her needs better than the ultra cheap dell she got.

That thing is a travesty. It takes like 10 seconds to load firefox(which my brother installed for her) once opened everything is slow and hard to use. The trackpad is a monster, the keyboard is slow and unresponsive. The wireless signal isn't all that great.

Ugh, I dread having to help her configure the iPod nano to that beast.

I mean, it's not even like she's USING the computer all that much. She does email, researches things online, keeps a calendar, and talks to her children on AIM(surprisingly well)

Those 4 simple tasks are excruciatingly annoying on that computer.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by Wrao She does email, researches things online, keeps a calendar, and talks to her children on AIM(surprisingly well) Those 4 simple tasks are excruciatingly annoying on that computer.

...and a pure joy on a Mac.

I'm in the same boat, with my Mom (and sister, Dad, etc.).



Some day they'll get tired of the hassle, pop-ups, virus/spyware battles, etc. and come to me "for help". I can't wait.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by awilso Yeah but you need a 3 year warranty with the machine, thats the difference, and how demoralising, having to buy something you know is going to need an extended warranty.

You need to have applecare if you buy an apple laptop, too.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Well then I don't think Apple should be getting into that area. They're a "mystery" enough to many people already. They don't need to put out a purposely low-quality, "cheapo" machine. It won't help them one bit, at the end of the day. In fact, it'll hurt them. If they could do it and still maintain slickness and quality, fine. But let's be realistic: it's Apple, and it ain't gonna cost $499. May as well get the $999 iBook and not compromise, and have all the ports and features you'd want. And feel good about it.

That's absolutely correct. However, Apple should be offering 2-year-old technology for, say, $699 (iBook). Use up old inventories and give beginners a great, proven product at an exceptional price. This is generally what the PC manufacturers do, just with cheapo crap.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by autodata You need to have applecare if you buy an apple laptop, too.

I agree 99%! When someone comes into the store to buy an iMac AND an iBook, we try to at least get them into AppleCare for the iBook. They get bounced and jounced and they are not perfect. They are close, but they are made by people and people make mistakes.

It is my opinion that you should get AppleCare with ANT Mac you buy. You'll be happy you did.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

Originally Posted by kscherer That's absolutely correct. However, Apple should be offering 2-year-old technology for, say, $699 (iBook). Use up old inventories and give beginners a great, proven product at an exceptional price. This is generally what the PC manufacturers do, just with cheapo crap.

iBook G4 800MHz/ 256MB/ 30GB/ Combo/ E/ 56K/ 12-inch TFT - Apple Certified Refurbished

^^ $649 in the Red Tag portion of the Apple Store online.

[Luca]

kscherer - No AppleCare for the Mac mini. The cost is too high to justify... if I get any kind of critical, irreparable failure, I'd rather just buy a brand new one than spend $100 up front in case something like that happens between years 2 and 4 of ownership. I mean, by the time AppleCare's term kicks in a year after purchase, I'll probably be thinking of replacing it with a new mini anyway (unless, of course, Apple sticks to their present refresh schedule).

[awilso]

Originally Posted by autodata You need to have applecare if you buy an apple laptop, too.

Harsh but fair - especially with Rev a, having said that I have never had a problem with anything Mac

[Robo]

I think that, if the iBook gets upped to 14" and 15" screen sizes, as it's rumored to in the next generation, Apple might introduce a 12" "iBook mini" (er, sorry, "nano") for $799 or so.

[autodata]

Originally Posted by awilso Harsh but fair - especially with Rev a, having said that I have never had a problem with anything Mac

But lots of people have. For instance, the reason I personally need to get a new powerbook is because my current 1 ghz titanium has had loud fans constantly on since I got the logic board replaced the second time. The first time was because of a bad firewire port and the second time was because the logic board just failed. They replaced then replaced the logic board a third time and it still had the fan issue, which happens to be a very common issue because Apple started using cheaper, louder fans and the titanium case doesn't deal with the heat very well. As such, my powerbook is obnoxiously loud and apple refuses to fix it. In fact, most of my powerbooks have needed applecare at some point and there is no shortage of manufacturing flaws on many of the apple laptops over the past 2 or 4 years.

Long story short, get apple care. Sure, they don't appear to fail as much, but that shouldn't be turned into a false sense of security.

That said, the current ibooks and powerbooks seem to be very solid. Right now I'm trying to get a new windows machine and initially wanted a laptop, but I was so dismayed with the crap available for <$1500 that I decided to just build a tower.

[Luca]

How many times have you called them regarding the loud fans? I think they should fix them. If they weren't loud before, they owe it to you. After all, you purchased AppleCare!

[madmaxmedia]

Originally Posted by Roboman I think that, if the iBook gets upped to 14" and 15" screen sizes, as it's rumored to in the next generation, Apple might introduce a 12" "iBook mini" (er, sorry, "nano") for $799 or so.

Something like that might be very possible. I agree Apple shouldn't totally cheapen the Mac experience, but when the PowerBooks and iBooks go Intel, there will be more room at the bottom. Right now the iBooks are a good overall value, but have been given slower CPU's and slow hard drives in order to differentiate from the PowerBook.

So I could see the lowest iBook being in the $700 price range. And as someone already pointed out, there are very inexpensive refurbs avaiable at Apple.com too.