[Oddball_Inc.]

It's been a long time since I've used a Mac, but I'm considering jumping back in.

I would like to purchase a G5 tower and wanted some advice regarding which box has the best price/performance characteristics...

Thanks in advance,
OB

[Oddball_Inc.]

I should add...

I use the machine for many things:
1. Photo/Video editing
2. Word processing, email, etc..
3. Some gaming
4. *nix work related stuff...

[Mac+]

OB - There are so many variables to consider.

Do you have a monitor to use, or should that be added to the cost? Performance can improve by adding RAM, have you budgeted for that?

For those things you mentioned, any G5 tower should do the job. Although, Luca will be able to tell you more about the gaming capabilities of the Mac - especially wrt graphics cards.

Generally speaking, though, in terms of bang-for-the-buck, I think with the G5 PM, the advice is stay away from the top end. Those that want be on the bleeding edge of technology usually pay a premium for it.

Also, does it have to be brand new? If you can locate an older dual 2GHz PM, that could be a great buy for you.

If you provide some more info in terms of your budget, we may be able to paint a clearer picture for you.

[Oddball_Inc.]

Originally Posted by Mac+ OB - There are so many variables to consider. Do you have a monitor to use, or should that be added to the cost? Performance can improve by adding RAM, have you budgeted for that? For those things you mentioned, any G5 tower should do the job. Although, Luca will be able to tell you more about the gaming capabilities of the Mac - especially wrt graphics cards. Generally speaking, though, in terms of bang-for-the-buck, I think with the G5 PM, the advice is stay away from the top end. Those that want be on the bleeding edge of technology usually pay a premium for it. Also, does it have to be brand new? If you can locate an older dual 2GHz PM, that could be a great buy for you. If you provide some more info in terms of your budget, we may be able to paint a clearer picture for you.

Thaks for your reply...

I would probably be inclined to purchase a new machine. I'm looking in the budget category of under 2k...Obvioiusly the more cost effective the better...

[Mac+]

OK then, I presume you are in the US and do not have access to education pricing. If you do have access to education pricing then these prices become cheaper.

A quick look at the Apple Store web page here reveals the sad fact that you don't have too many options.

Prices start at $1999.

Dual 2.0 GHz - $1999.00
Dual 2.3 GHz - $2499.00
Dual 2.7 GHz - $2999.00

Go second hand, in that case - or maybe look for a refurbished deal with a warranty.

I presume you already have a monitor to use with it as well.

[Oddball_Inc.]

All of your presumption were correct

I was afraid that those were my only options. I may wait until Sep. to see if any new hardware platforms are announced.

By the way, an iMac is out of the question as I have several machines on a kvm switch...Any recommendation on where to locate refurbs?

[Mac+]

If you go to the Apple Store web page I linked to in my previous post and scroll down the page, you should see this on the right hand side.

That's normally a good place to start.

[Mac+]

From the link above - prices current as at time of posting.

Apple Certified Power Mac G5 Power Mac G5 1.6 GHz 256MB/ 80GB/ SuperDrive/ GigE/ 56K - Apple Certified Refurbished Learn More • Save 41% off the original price Original price: $1,999.00 Your price: $1,199.00 Estimated Ship: 3-5 business days Free Shipping Add Power Mac G5 1.8 GHz/ 256MB/ 80GB/ SuperDrive/ GigE/ 56K - Apple Certified Refurbished Learn More • Save 14% off the original price Original price: $1,499.00 Your price: $1,299.00 Estimated Ship: 1-2 business days Free Shipping Add Power Mac G5 DUAL 1.8GHz/ 256MB/ 80G/ SuperDrive/ PCI/ GeFr5200/ GigE/ 56K - Apple Certified Refurbished Learn More • Save 26% off the original price Original price: $1,999.00 Your price: $1,499.00 Estimated Ship: 1-2 business days Free Shipping Add Power Mac G5 Dual 2GHz SuperDrive - Apple Certified Refurbished 512MB DDR400 SDRAM 160GB Serial ATA 16x SuperDrive (double-layer) Three PCI Slots ATI Radeon 9600 Learn More • Save 11% off the original price Original price: $1,999.00 Your price: $1,799.00 Estimated Ship: 1-2 business days Free Shipping Add Power Mac G5 Dual 2.3GHz SuperDrive - Apple Certified Refurbished 512MB DDR400 SDRAM 250GB Serial ATA 16x SuperDrive (double-layer) Three PCI Slots ATI Radeon 9600 Learn More • Save 13% off the original price Original price: $2,499.00 Your price: $2,199.00 Estimated Ship: 1-2 business days Free Shipping Add Power Mac G5 DUAL 2.5GHz/ 512MB/ 160GB/ 8x SuperDrive/ PCI-X/ Rad9600XT - Apple Certified Refurbished Learn More • Save 24% off the original price Original price: $2,999.00 Your price: $2,299.00 Estimated Ship: 1-2 business days Free Shipping

[Oddball_Inc.]

Mac+,

Thanks for your help and patience...

I see this machine and it looks appealing (I would have to spend money on RAM) and I have a nice video card I could add:
Product Details:
- Apple Certified Refurbished Power Mac G5
- Dual 1.8GHz PowerPC G5 processor
- 900MHz frontside bus/processor
- 256MB DDR400 SDRAM
- 80GB Serial ATA
- 8x SuperDrive
- Three PCI Slots
- NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
- 64MB DDR video memory
- 56K internal modem

Do you have any idea how this performance would relate to a Intel/AMD pc? It seems that dual procs and a 64 bit os and fast front side bus would allow this box decent performance...

Any thoughts?

[Mac+]

Hey OB no probs - happy to help where I can.

As for comparisons with an Intel/AMD, I'm sorry I can't be of any help to you as I have never used those systems. I might add, though, that flat out comparisons on hardware are ridiculously hard to make, b/c - again - there are so many variables ... not the least being the quality of the OS.

As an aside, I do use and love OS X, so I can vouch that it is an elegant and intuitive OS - but this is not a scientifically proven fact, just my humble opinion.

Anyway, back on track: any G5PM should be able to handle what you want to throw at it. If it is a dual processor model then all the better (especially) if the applications you want to use can utilise both processors.

A point to remember, though, is that OS X loves RAM - so if you can afford it, buy suitable RAM for your machine (not from Apple though, they're too expensive ... try NewEgg or crucial) and you should notice an improvement in "zippiness", or responsiveness.

One more thing - you do know that Apple will be migrating to Intel processors (which they plan to have completed by the end of 2007) don't you? Your G5PM will, of course, still serve you perfectly well - and nobody can tell what the quality control of the first generation "MacIntel" will be like - but I thought you should be made aware of it at least.

For further info, you can read this sticky thread.

[stonyc]

Originally Posted by Oddball_Inc. I see this machine and it looks appealing (I would have to spend money on RAM) and I have a nice video card I could add:

Make sure (if I'm reading you correctly) that the video card is compatible with Macs... if made for a PC, it needs to be flashed or something correct?

[Luca]

Yeah, you might THINK you have a nice video card you can add to it but are you sure it's Mac compatible? With a few rare exceptions, video cards are either Mac-compatible or PC-compatible, never both.

And yes, my knowledge of Mac graphics cards (and Mac gaming) is extensive. What sort of games would you be playing and what kind of performance are you expecting? Because if you think you'll be able to play UT2k4 with maxed settings, you'll be very disappointed. Generally I don't recommend Macs for gaming at all... even the highest end Macs only make passable gaming machines, and for the price they are abysmal.

[Oddball_Inc.]

Luca...

I have an extra ati 9600 that I could use...could've sworn that it's compatible.

Your experience with gaming is interesting, I would have thought the platform to be more robust...(what do I know?)

For 2k I'm starting to think that I may just spend $1500 on an Alienware/Planet Computers box and use the additional $500 for an Mac Mini to play with...

[Luca]

NOOOO no no no. Alienware sucks. Here's what you should do:

- Get either a Mac mini (nicely equipped, but don't go overboard... the extras add up REALLY quick) or one of those refurb PowerMacs. And don't bother upgrading the video. The FX5200 is a slow dog of a graphics card but it'll do if you're not gaming.
- Use the extra money left in your $2,000 budget ($700-$1300 or so, depending on which Mac you get) to build a PC to use for gaming. For $700 you can easily get one that'll beat a $1000 Alienware. Or hell, at least buy a Dell! Dell isn't great but at least they're cheap for what you get. Alienware, on the other hand, is horribly overpriced, even more so than Apple because at least Macs have the intangible added value of OS X.

Unless your Radeon 9600 is specifically a Mac-compatible version, it will not work. The only Mac-compatible Radeon 9600s have blue printed circuit boards, so that's an easy way to tell, but basically, unless you pulled it from a PowerMac G5, it's not going to be Mac compatible.

Let me now explain a few points that I went over... I wanted to first make it clear that I'm strongly opposed to Alienware (and to some extent, all pre-built PCs, though some of them are fine). Basically, while Macs may be a better platform for gaming and other graphics-related things in theory, in reality games are really poorly written and make heavy use of Windows-only code. Even Windows games are not very well optimized, yet they run much better than Mac games. The reason Mac games are slow and crappy isn't because Macs are bad, it's because 99.9% of Mac games are just simple porting jobs.

I've gotten in numerous discussions with various people on this subject. Games are interesting, because they're clearly some of the least efficient software written today. In a perfect world, Mac games would be written for Macs from the ground up and they'd probably be pretty good (faster on a Mac than on an equivalent PC). But games are written to basically take only raw power into account, and they're written for Windows, so PCs are just better gaming machines.

*phew*

Okay, that may not have been organized real well. Let me sum up my points into a simple, bulleted list (everyone loves bulleted lists!):

- Macs are exceptional computers, great at just about everything, and they offer a lot of elegance and ease of use that Windows PCs simply can't hope to match, ever.
- PCs, especially homebuilt ones, represent an excellent value as far as how much power you can get for the money. $400-$700 is a reasonable amount to spend on a low-end to midrange gaming PC.
- Games are poorly written pieces of software, but they still run much better on PCs than on Macs. Basically, you shouldn't buy a Mac to play games. You can buy a Mac with enough power to do anything you want, and then you can try loading some games on it and see how they go, but don't expect anything.
- Because of the above points, you can get a decent gaming PC for $700 or even less, if you put it together yourself. A $700 PC with the right amount of money invested in the right components will easily beat a Mac that costs 2-3x as much, at gaming at least.

Any other questions? I have built several PCs myself over the last few years, and I have also gone through a lot of Macs. I even switched entirely from my Mac to a PC about a year ago, but I switched back within six months. Throughout these ordeals, I have learned a great deal about computer gaming, PC building, and so on.

[Oddball_Inc.]

Luca,

Thanks for taking me to school...It's funny you mention this subject, because after looking at Alienware, I noticed that I could build a machine with better *all around* components than what was available from them...For some reason, I recall them having a better price/performance ratio than what I saw today...

I'll probably build something with an Athlon 64x, and rip the audigy sound card and dvd burner out of my current machine, purchase a couple of sata drives, 1GB memory and be done with it...Dual boot xp/linux flavor of the month (currently for me it's Ubuntu) and the world is happy again.

I'll wait to see if there is any credence to the Intel based Mini, hopefully, this will control the price (I'm not holding my breath) and I'll get to play wit OSX then...

Thanks again for your explanations..
OB

[Luca]

I think a system like that should be inexpensive enough that you should be able to afford a Mac mini as well. If you're just getting back into Macs, maybe it's best to start small anyway?

[Mac+]

If you save some money building your own PC, then definitely go the Mac mini route OddBall_Inc. (great name, btw) ... you will love using OS X! I feel like I can practically *guarantee* it!

[HezMah19]

I WILL Guarantee it.
OS X is (in my opinion) the BEST OS in existence.
Mac Mini...come on, you know you want one...

[Lee_Roy]

There is a dual PC/Mac card now. Not the best but its a step in the right direction. And I believe once Macs start becoming Intel inside it will get better with more cards if not all being both platforms. It would be cheaper on ATi's end to manufacture one card verses two.

http://apps.ati.com/ir/PressReleaseT...aseID=74805 5