[Chinney]

Do they exist?

I know that certain relatively small or maybe even mid-sized businesses run networks of Macs. (Personally, I have seen a couple of small businesses in ‘creative’ fields that do.) But are there any large corporations or government branches that run primarily with Macs (other than, presumably, Apple Inc.)?

Is it possible to run a large corporation on Macs? I assume the answer is generally, theoretically, “yes”, but it may depend on any general need, in a particular business, for specialized software that is still not available for OS X.

I work in the legal field and see no barriers at my workplace. Day in, day out, the MS Office Suite is the bread and butter of almost all of us here. There are a few specialized applications that I use (for research, time and file management, and personnel issues), but these are now all web-based, so I can’t see any barrier to using them with a Mac. There may be a few specialized accounting applications that our financial people use (I am not sure about that) that I suppose might not be available for Macs. Also, I don’t know if any network security features we would need might pose barriers.

What would be the financial implications of running a Mac network involving hundreds or (low) thousands of networked computers? Presumably there would be a higher start up cost (although I think that the needs of almost all of the networked computers in my field could easily be met with Minis).

How about keeping the network running? I remember reading on AN or AI a couple of years ago that the maintenance costs of a Mac network are far lower (fewer computer experts needed to keep the system running) than for networks of Windows-based computers, but I have no idea if that is actually true.

[danielsza]

Originally Posted by Chinney How about keeping the network running? I remember reading on AN or AI a couple of years ago that the maintenance costs of a Mac network are far lower (fewer computer experts needed to keep the system running) than for networks of Windows-based computers, but I have no idea if that is actually true.

Do school's count? They are businesses, and often have large networks.

As for keeping them running, there is less work... no need for anti-virus software... no need to remove any malware... no need to remove software that users installed, that shouldn't be installed.

If you run Mac OS X Server, and Apple Remote Desktop it's easy to keep all the computers running... without having to do much. Updates and software installs can be done to all computers at the same time remotely. And having UNIX permissions helps so much... And ACL (Access Control Lists) are also great for shared resources. And you can enable SSH if need be. Also adding things like shared printers is easy, especially if you use Bonjour.

I find that with Mac's( and for that matter Unix/Linux/BSD...) your not fixing so many problems as you are with windows based computers... With the windows computers it seems that every so often you end up just re-imaging the machines.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by danielsza Do school's count? They are businesses, and often have large networks.

Are there in fact universities running on Mac networks? Specific examples?

[danielsza]

I was talking more about public school boards...

Specifically I can tell you that DPCDSB, I think it's something like a 142 sites (141 schools) and at one point something like 118 of them were Mac only... now I think that they have gone mostly windows/ibm (but I can't remember at the moment, I could ask one of my friends who works there if you want to know)... But at I believe at the other 24 sites they are all mixed networks.

[Barto]

My university has Windows, Mac OS X and Linux student networks. The Linux network is the smallest with about 100 computers, the Mac and Windows networks have a few hundred computers each.

[rasmits]

Well some high profile companies like BBC, Disney World Resorts, Deutsche Bank, US Postal Service, TIAA-CREF, Adobe (and many more) operate some or all of their web services using Web Objects, so I imagine they've all got some Apple servers.

As for some universities operating large Web Objects servers (and hence, OS X Servers) there's the University of Michigan, University of Oslo, and others.

So to answer your question, yes they exist.

[kretara]

I worked at WGBH (as a web developer) in Boston for 4 years and the entire company was pretty much all Mac. There were a few windows test machines and some big iron Sun's. But, virtually all of the 1100 employees were on a Mac.

The University that I just left was not very Apple friendly at all. Some of the IT people, creative types and alot of professors (non CS, since the CS dept. was practically bought out by MS) wanted Macs but the head of IT wanted nothing to do with them and would not support them.

I now work for a massive data warehousing company and the desktops are windows. When I interviewed there they asked me why I was using a Mac since XP had left OS 9 in the dust years ago. That got a big shake of the head. Their servers are mostly a mix of HP, Sun and Linux.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by rasmits Well some high profile companies like BBC, Disney World Resorts, Deutsche Bank, US Postal Service, TIAA-CREF, Adobe (and many more) operate some or all of their web services using Web Objects, so I imagine they've all got some Apple servers. As for some universities operating large Web Objects servers (and hence, OS X Servers) there's the University of Michigan, University of Oslo, and others. So to answer your question, yes they exist.

Do OS X servers necessarily mean Mac networks? Similarly, do web services using OS X servers mean Mac networks for the companies' operations?

I am not necessarily implying that they do not, I am just asking.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by kretara I worked at WGBH (as a web developer) in Boston for 4 years and the entire company was pretty much all Mac. There were a few windows test machines and some big iron Sun's. But, virtually all of the 1100 employees were on a Mac. [...]

That is the sort of example I was looking for. What was their experience with a large Mac network? Do you know if they still use one?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Chinney Do OS X servers necessarily mean Mac networks? Similarly, do web services using OS X servers mean Mac networks for the companies' operations?

What is a "Mac network" in your opinion?

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by chucker What is a "Mac network" in your opinion?

Uh, yes. I should have specified. I am not necessarily talking about servers running on OS X. I was thinking more of the end-user experience...i.e. Macs on all of the desktops. But I suppose that having both the server and the desktops on OS X would be the 'full meal deal'. I am not sure of the exact relationship of OS X server to OS X on the networked machines, but I never thought that one necessarily implied the other. I would be happy for any clarification.

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Chinney That is the sort of example I was looking for. What was their experience with a large Mac network? Do you know if they still use one?

I worked there back in the 8.6-10.1 days. As far as I know they are still using Macs for most everything.

The department that I worked in (Interactive) was close to 120 people. We had 2 people who supported 140+ desktops/laptops and a few fileservers. These same 2 people also did alot of video compression work, managed to speak at a few MacWorlds about quicktime (one was a frigging quicktime/video compression wizard), one of them was a technical director and they also did some coding. They did all the tape backups (desktop and fileservers), restores and desktop setups/rebuilds. These 2 guys were busy, but they were nowhere near as busy as they department level IT people (who were really very good at what they did) at the university that I just left.

Contrast that with the University that I just left. The department that I worked for had 2.75 FTE's (2.75 fulltime people hours spread over 4 people) doing nothing but supporting windows. We had 140 or so windows machines (something like 45 or so in labs, 75+ desktops/laptops and 15 2003 servers). I worked in the IT department as a web master so I got to see how much effort they had to put into windows. They were running constantly, the never got a break from windows crap. They were also far more automated than WGBH was. At the University they use ghost to quickly rebuild desktops, GPO's to push out updates and a MS update server to put out win patches. The 2.75 FTE's does not include the person who had to backup to tape all the boxes.

The main windows admin (in our department) at the university had been asking for the past 1.5 years to switch everyone over to Macs because of how easy they are to admin and use (good for me, I helped convert him), but he was totally stonewalled at every chance.

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[chucker]

Originally Posted by Chinney I am not sure of the exact relationship of OS X server to OS X on the networked machines, but I never thought that one necessarily implied the other.

Indeed they don't. You could use a Mac OS X client in a Windows Server environment just like you could use a Windows XP client in a Mac OS X Server environment.

[intlplby]

i would assume that some design companies would be all mac.... FCP and Photoshop based....

i don't know how large they would be . ... mainly boutique operations....

contact apple and ask them ..

[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by Chinney Do they exist?

Let me put it this way:

Usually, Apple's chief motivation in doing most anything is to satisfy a need that their employees have, be it for personal or professional life. That's why the products tend to be so amazing--because the employees and developers feel passionate about their products. Most companies can only wish for that.

So yeah, I'd say Apple uses an all-Mac network, between Xserves and the Mac lineup. If you consider 15,000+ employees "Big Business," then these networks exist in at least one place.

I'm sure there are others.

[Kraetos]

I work in the IT department at my college and I can say that we are about half and half. But let me tell you, while we get a fried Dell Optiplex in about once a week (what is it with the power supplies on those things?), I can't remember the last time a Mac came in. When I applied for the job, they said it was fine that I prefer Macs, but since they so rarely come in, it was more important that I know PCs. Thankfully, I did.

We replace computers every four years, and a huge chunk of them are going to be replaced this summer. I have suggested that rather than replace the Dells with more Dells, we replace them with Boot Camped minis. My boss thought it was a great idea, because on top of the fact that the mini is a very reliable little machine, it is actually cheaper than a comprable Optiplex. Reason being, while you can get an Optiplex for less than a mini, if you actually attempt to equalize the specs, the mini is less. You cant even get an Optiplex with a C2D for less than $1000 - spec wise, this Optiplex is about the same as the $800 mini.

Unfortunately, there are a handful of very pro-Microsoft (yes, they do exist) morons running around in our bureaucracy, so our suggestion might get shot down, but its worth a try. These are the same people that suggested we go with Exchange instead of going with a FOSS IMAP server like Dovecot or Cyrus on the basis that we needed support. (Actually, if they had agreed to Cyrus, I would have pointed them at OS X Server...) Of course, the first time the server borks, we call Microsoft and they tell us that "its not our problem, must have something to do with the Macs on your network. Call Apple."

Idiocy abounds. And the amazing thing is, people will actually pay you to be an idiot. Case in point: the "ColdFusion Expert" we just hired to rework our website. ColdFusion?

Thats what I get for working in the IT department at a hippie school.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Idiocy abounds. And the amazing thing is, people will actually pay you to be an idiot. Case in point: the "ColdFusion Expert" we just hired to rework our website. ColdFusion? Thats what I get for working in the IT department at a hippie school.

I work in Web development at a bit of a hippie school, and we use CF as well. Maybe it's a hippie thing. (I actually rather like it, but I do my personal away-from-work development in PHP.)

[kretara]

Originally Posted by Kraetos But let me tell you, while we get a fried Dell Optiplex in about once a week (what is it with the power supplies on those things?), I can't remember the last time a Mac came in.

We also had a fairly high power supply failure rate in the optiplex's in our University department. A lot of our GX260's and GX270's developed motherboard issues. The optical drive failure rate was absolutely crazy. Our C640's and D620's (Dell laptops -- I think the names are correct) were just falling apart. I was simply amazed that our IT director kept going with Dell's despite saying that he disliked both Dell and Microsoft.

Our Dell servers had all sorts of issues. Bad RAM, bad RAID controller cards, failing power supplies and broken CD-ROM's.

I swear that we had Dell out 2-3 times every month to fix something (which they sometimes even managed to do).

[kretara]

Originally Posted by fcgriz I work in Web development at a bit of a hippie school, and we use CF as well. Maybe it's a hippie thing. (I actually rather like it, but I do my personal away-from-work development in PHP.)

When I started as a Web Master at the University that was my last job they wanted me to start using CF. I told them they were crazy. No way would I use CF for anything. I did most of my site in PHP with all heavy lifting done in perl. They also wanted me to run XP as my web/database server. I laughed them out of the room. They were afraid of spending money, so I got some outdated Sun X1's and got them up and running in a few days. They served as my web server for 1.5 years and were still running strong when I was forced to upgrade to an Intel platform (running Gentoo).

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by fcgriz I work in Web development at a bit of a hippie school, and we use CF as well. Maybe it's a hippie thing. (I actually rather like it, but I do my personal away-from-work development in PHP.)

Well yeah, from what I hear CF is easy to use. Problem is, its weak and inflexible. And expensive. Because it isn't free. Which it should be.

Originally Posted by kretara When I started as a Web Master at the University that was my last job they wanted me to start using CF. I told them they were crazy. No way would I use CF for anything. I did most of my site in PHP with all heavy lifting done in perl. They also wanted me to run XP as my web/database server. I laughed them out of the room. They were afraid of spending money, so I got some outdated Sun X1's and got them up and running in a few days. They served as my web server for 1.5 years and were still running strong when I was forced to upgrade to an Intel platform (running Gentoo).

ColdFusion was cool in 1999. It's a joke. I told them to do it in PHP. I even offered to help if they were a little rusty with their PHP.

Then it came out that most of our web guys dont *know* PHP.

At which point I declared that it was hopeless and resigned to learning the basics of CF, because I feel like they are going to need my help. And even if they dont, it will likely be my responsibility to learn the ins and outs of the CMS we are using because I usually work on the end user side of things.

The thing is, its entirely possible to make a living as an awful web designer, so why bother learning anything new?