[kscherer]

Microsoft has announced Windows 11 and, in a bit of a surprise, is partnering with Amazon to run Android apps. So, Microsoft Windows 11 will run all of the Windows viruses, malware, spyware, and other nasties, AND it will also run all of the Android viruses, malware, spyware, and other nasties. What an awesome feature!

A few times per year I have to deal with Windows in order to transfer data to a Mac. There hasn't been a single time when it was any smoother than dying. Grief! I don't know. This seems like a desperation move to me.

And, in another desperation move, "Please bring iMessage to Windows! Pretty please with sugar on top?"

I absolutely cannot wait to read about all of the data theft that is going to transpire. In fact, my biggest fear regarding Apple is that the government will force them to open up 3rd-party app stores so that we, too, can be subjected to all of that crap.

[turtle]

I mean, from a user standpoint it seems like a good thing. The fact that there is so much bad stuff out there and no vetting of it though, that is troubling. I grabbed a copy of the leaked beta the other day but haven't built a machine with it yet. It will be interesting to see how it really works out. Teams integrated in sounds good... except I work from home and now Teams would be in my face all the time.

Glad my work computer is a VM I can just shutdown.

[PB PM]

Nothing too scary here. If you don’t want Android stuff don’t install the Amazon app. Sounds like lots of under the hood improvements to modernize the OS, dropping old APIs, like Direct X 9-10 (that goes back to 2004-2012 or so). Hmm, wonder if my old Windows games will still work, doubt it. Meh, just keep an old SSD running Windows 10, problem solved.

My personal favorite comments from people are the, “it looks like Mac OS” ones. Clearly those people haven’t really used Mac OS, they look nothing alike.

[chucker]

Centering the taskbar and rounding the Windows are arguably Mac-like cues. (The Windows 7 taskbar also took quite a few cues from the Dock.)

No worries, though, unlike macOS, there's still plenty of layers underneath. Want to repartition your disk? That UI literally hasn't been changed in two decades.

Running Android apps is, well, just as interesting as running iOS apps on M1 Macs. It's not gonna be a great UX, but it does make some apps available that otherwise wouldn't be. I get that they don't want to cooperate with Google on this one, but Amazon? Really?

[turtle]

Yeah, I'm still right clicking to get to the things I need to do on my servers more than hunting through or even searching. Disk Manager, Users and Groups... Decades since those have changed. It will be interesting to see those in the new version.

[turtle]

Do they really need a Desktop icon for the app that's in the Taskbar?

[PB PM]

Do you mean Edge? They are just pushing people, someone, anyone to actually use it. Does anyone use that? I guess if you want to stay Chromish without the Google, but WebKit browsers just an’t my thing.

Sounds like they may have also totally replaced the Control Panel with “settings” now. It needed update
I guess, it hasn’t changed since, what Windows XP?

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by chucker Centering the taskbar and rounding the Windows are arguably Mac-like cues. (The Windows 7 taskbar also took quite a few cues from the Dock.)

Taskbars has always been on the bottom by default, long before there was a dock. Moving the icons is kind of strange, IMO. Hopefully there will be a hack to put it back the old way. From what I’ve read it’s actually more like several Linux distros that go back to 2004, than modern Mac OS in terms of design.

[psmith2.0]

The infinite folding blue vaginas wallpaper is a nice touch.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM Taskbars has always been on the bottom by default, long before there was a dock.

Huh? You're conflating two things there.

Windows 11 moves the taskbar to the center, like Mac OS X's Dock did.

Windows 7 made the taskbar far more icon-focused rather than text-focused, again, like the Dock.

Like, if you think the Windows 7 taskbar wasn't a significant shift away from the Windows 95 taskbar, I don't know what to tell you.

Originally Posted by PB PM Moving the icons is kind of strange, IMO. Hopefully there will be a hack to put it back the old way.

You can set it to left-aligned, I believe.

Originally Posted by PB PM From what I’ve read it’s actually more like several Linux distros that go back to 2004, than modern Mac OS in terms of design.

Yeah, I'm only talking desktop environments people actually use.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by turtle Do they really need a Desktop icon for the app that's in the Taskbar?

This is such a weird theme that keeps running through Windows, like installers that ask you if you want Start Menu shortcuts (sure?), and a Desktop shortcut (what?), and a Quick Launch shortcut (uhhh), and defaulting to adding themselves to the don't-call-it-systray notification area (???).

I'm not sure apps adding a shortcut to the Desktop and/or Quick Launch* should ever have been a thing. Add yourself to the Start Menu (which is already a somewhat flawed approach compared to Mac OS surfacing Applications itself, rather than a weird abstraction on top of it), then make it easy for users to pick their favorite apps themselves.

Some Mac apps do this to, rudely adding themselves to the Dock. Ew.

*) yes, I know Quick Launch basically hasn't been a thing in a long time

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by chucker Huh? You're conflating two things there. Windows 11 moves the taskbar to the center, like Mac OS X's Dock did. Windows 7 made the taskbar far more icon-focused rather than text-focused, again, like the Dock. Like, if you think the Windows 7 taskbar wasn't a significant shift away from the Windows 95 taskbar, I don't know what to tell you.

Fully aware of all of that. Nothing conflating at all. It's a fact, the taskbar has been on the bottom of Windows for, well forever. Regardless of text vs icons. Icons could use used as early as XP (was along with Text). Windows 7 brought Icon only, and having multiple windows under one Icon. In fact I recall Mac users complaining that Apple was "copying" the taskbar when they first saw the dock (Mac World Magazine IIRC said that). Go figure.

You can set it to left-aligned, I believe.

That would be good.

Yeah, I'm only talking desktop environments people actually use.

Irrelevant. I just don't see how moving the start menu to the middle makes it like the dock.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 The infinite folding blue vaginas wallpaper is a nice touch.

I think Bill and Melinda got divorced over that very thing.

[psmith2.0]

I would.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by PB PM Fully aware of all of that. Nothing conflating at all. It's a fact, the taskbar has been on the bottom of Windows for, well forever.

I don't know why you keep bringing up the bottom. I never said the taskbar was previously not on the bottom.

Originally Posted by PB PM Regardless of text vs icons. Icons could use used as early as XP (was along with Text). Windows 7 brought Icon only, and having multiple windows under one Icon. In fact I recall Mac users complaining that Apple was "copying" the taskbar when they first saw the dock (Mac World Magazine IIRC said that). Go figure.

Well, yes. The Dock made Mac OS a bit more Windows- and NeXT-like. The Windows 7 taskbar made Windows a bit more macOS-like.

[kscherer]

Good ideas get copied.

Bad ideas get copied.

To me, Windows is a conglomeration of a few good ideas copied over the top of a kludge of bad ideas that were also copied. I'm glad it's not my problem.

[drewprops]

Hey now, y'all - it's FAST!!




...

[kscherer]

From the eyes of a slug, a tortoise is fast!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by kscherer Good ideas get copied. Bad ideas get copied. To me, Windows is a conglomeration of a few good ideas copied over the top of a kludge of bad ideas that were also copied. I'm glad it's not my problem.

I don't think Windows is that bad. I just think Microsoft still doesn't have someone heading Windows who cares to make it more consistent. The incentive just doesn't seem to be there.

So, to an extent, it's always going to be lipstick on a pig.

[kscherer]

Originally Posted by chucker make it more consistent. The incentive just doesn't seem to be there.

Consistency is one of the most important bits of the OS. I even squabble over Apple's lack of it whenever I see it.

But, in my experience MacOS is mostly consistent, where windows is mostly inconsistent.

[PB PM]

UI elements on both sides are all over the place. There was a time when Mac OS was unified. Then they would add something with a newer look and leave the other stuff looking old. This only got worse once they moved to the yearly upgrade cycle.

Windows has its problems, but slow? Hardly. I have hardware on which Windows (via Bootcamp) is distinctly twice as fast as the most modern version of Mac OS it can run. Why because of all those evil old things, smaller code, that takes less CPU time to get done.

[Batman]

Microsoft's design work in recent years has been — erm, inconsistent at best. I'm led to believe by someone I follow on Twitter that it's because many of their UX folks are brought in as contractors, so the churn is high, and you end up with half-baked ideas and no persistent institutional knowledge.

Interesting to note that they're trying to up the underlying hardware security requirements, at least if you want to get the "yep this'll definitely work and be supported" stamp of approval. 8th Generation Intel processors (or Ryzen 2000) on-up, thank you very much, and if you don't have at least TPM 1.2 (though 2.0 is preferred), they'll wag a finger at you.

The only unforgivable sin (for me) is that they're currently forcing you to keep the taskbar at the bottom of the screen in Windows 11, whereas I'm a "top-taskbar-or-die" apostate. macOS habits die hard when you're living in a Windows world, professionally.

Edit: Two unforgivable sins. They’ve built Teams into the OS.

[PB PM]

Kind of saw Team getting built in, they have already shoved Skype into Windows 10.

TPM isn't a bad idea to require, forcing users to start using UEFI, rather than classic BIOS. For consumer units, 6th Gen Intel chips (Skylake) and newer that support TPM 2.0. 1.2 goes all the way back to Haswell.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Batman Microsoft's design work in recent years has been — erm, inconsistent at best. I'm led to believe by someone I follow on Twitter that it's because many of their UX folks are brought in as contractors, so the churn is high, and you end up with half-baked ideas and no persistent institutional knowledge.

Could be. Whatever the details, someone at the org simply doesn't care.

Basically: https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/...009929220?s=21

That's where Windows is at — some apps have the current UI theme, some have the one from 10 years ago, some the one from 20 years ago.