[intlplby]

As a foreigner living in China, I was thinking about two of the biggest problems between china and the rest of the world - Censorship and Intellectual Property

If China and Chinese people paid for the massive amounts of intellectual property rights consumed, there would most definitely not be a trade deficit.... in fact America would have a trade surplus.....

Censorship is a huge problem here. Many chinese aren't even aware of it. Internet content should be totally free from governmental, and if China wants to participate it should respect this fact. In addition American companies should not aid China in censoring the internet (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Cisco, etc)


The best solution I can see is to block China from accessing American and European internet sites until it starts to comply.

China is so dependent on the US for information you wouldn't believe it.

All that needs to be done is to check the IP of the person trying to access information in America and instead of allowing them to do so, serve them a page that states that Chinese internet is censored and the problems with censorship and stating the problems with rampant raping of intellectual property......

this should start with everything that is free..... journal articles, patents, research etc..... academia should be the first to start this assault on censorship and raping of intellectual property.......

the universities here would have nothing to teach the students and no research would be done....... you would bring many institutions to their knees..... china would be forced to allow freedom of information or not participate at all......

as bill clinton said "information is power"

[stevegong]

Originally Posted by intlplby Censorship is a huge problem here. Many chinese aren't even aware of it. Internet content should be totally free from governmental

You said so yourself. How do you plan to not allow people in China to access foreign sites? Do you want the US government to stop US sites from being accessed? Oh wait, but internet content should be totally free from "governmental"...

[julesstoop]

I don't believe that starting some sort of 'war on intellectual property' s going to help the Chinese nor the western world, for that matter.

I think we (USA, UK and a few others) have learned by now that it close to impossible to force your ideals upon another culture. We hold freedom of speech and information in very high regard, the chinese - at this moment in time - simply might have other priorities.

I don't think this thread will survive for a long time, by the way

[stevegong]

Originally Posted by intlplby China is so dependent on the US for information you wouldn't believe it.

Oh, and the US is so dependent on China you wouldn't believe it!

[chucker]

Originally Posted by intlplby Censorship is a huge problem here. [..] Internet content should be totally free from governmental, and if China wants to participate it should respect this fact. [..] The best solution I can see is to block China from accessing American and European internet sites until it starts to comply.

Um, you want to fix censorship by censoring the censors?

[stevegong]

Originally Posted by intlplby the universities here would have nothing to teach the students and no research would be done....... you would bring many institutions to their knees..... china would be forced to allow freedom of information or not participate at all......

"to their knees..."

How agressive and bellicose this statement is. It's like you're trying to pick a fight.

But why would other countries even care what is being censored within China? Surely the only people pissed off about a censorship are the ones who are having the information they want censored. Why would someone in America care about what someone in China can access on the internet?

[intlplby]

the government doesn't need to block it..... anyone who runs a webserver would choose to participate.... it would be done by those who run the internet....

the same way there are programs like peerguardian for P2P......

the freedom of speech here in china is not a cultural issue... it's a governmental issue...... this isn't an attack at chinese people .... it's an attack at the way the chinese government conducts itself.....

by serving a page informing citizens here instead of what they were looking for, you are making them aware of the issue......

people here live with horse blinders on about what is done by those higher up

"Um, you want to fix censorship by censoring the censors?"

fire with fire.....

"to their knees..."

it is bellicose, i know..... it would force freedom of speech ....... it's not forcing chinese citizens.... it's forcing the chinese government


regardless of what government it is.... if it forces a government to allow civil rights for it's citizens i would say that's ok.....

it's a lot better than the typical US approach of lobbing bombs and killing people.....

"But why would other countries even care what is being censored within China? "

if you knew the attitude that is being taught to 1.3 billion chinese by the current administration you'd care....

the 22.8 million taiwanese i am sure care
the 127.4 million japanese i am sure care


the power of millions to billions misinformed people is not good

[stevegong]

I'm not sure how big a problem censorship is...what exactly is being censored beyond sites that are politically loaded and pornography?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by intlplby "Um, you want to fix censorship by censoring the censors?" fire with fire.....

That's an extremely outdated view. I'm disappointed that anyone would actually suggest that.

the 22.8 million taiwanese i am sure care the 127.4 million japanese i am sure care

Why would they?

the power of millions to billions misinformed people is not good

That's not another country's business.

[intlplby]

"Why would they?"

Taiwanese - because 1.3 billion chinese are taught that Taiwan is part of the PRC, when in fact it is a separate nation the ROC. They have their own laws, their own government, their own flag, etc.... it has never been part of the PRC and the communist flag has never flown over it.....

Read the China daily and you'll see what kind of distorted world view you have here.... especially read the comments..... they will turn your stomach...
www.chinadaily.com.cn

The japanese should care because Chinese people are taught to be racist and belligerent towards the Japanese...... you had riots this time last year when japanese tourists were attacked.... i've had students on more than one occasion say things like "all japanese must die" in class and the whole class supports them..... i've had them call Japan, "their enemy"

when china decides to take taiwan by force or gets in a conflict with japan over the oil fields in japanese waters, there will not be a voice of dissent against armed conflict.......

in america it's at least fortunate that a large portion of the population is thinking about whether war is the correct answer.... they will also voice that opinion and can voice that opinion.... that would not happen here in china.....


it is another countries business when that disinformation most probably will affect the status quo internationally

it already affects US policy.... go to the CIA factbook at www.cia.gov.... Taiwan is no longer even listed as a soveriegn nation so as not to irritate the PRC.... now i don't know if the CIA already serves up a different page to China, but if I access the CIA factbook from China, I can't even get to Taiwan unless I manually type in "/tw.html" at the end of the URL

[stevegong]

China has every right to be angry at Japan. No one claims that the holocaust did not happen. Japan erases their brutal invasion from their textbooks, and glorifies the generals. This is like glorifying hitler. A lot of people are unaware of the Japanese atrocities in China and Korea.

I don't think anyone in China actually think that Taiwan is being governed by the Chinese government or that they are one economic unity. This topic is more complicated than how you've simplified it to...

[stevegong]

Originally Posted by intlplby when china decides to take taiwan by force or gets in a conflict with japan over the oil fields in japanese waters, there will not be a voice of dissent against armed conflict.......

Give me a break. How many Chinese friends do you actually have? I'm having a hard time believing you really understand the culture or its people.

[stevegong]

A word of advice, and you can take it or leave it:

You might find your stay in China to be more enjoyable if you stop looking at China as the evil enemy. Every country is unique and have good and bad aspects to them. The thing about positive test bias, or confirmantion bias, is that if you already have a preconceived notion about something, you WILL find examples that support your hypothesis. If you go in with a negative attitude about anything, you will find things negative about it.

[intlplby]

Chinese people who are older have every right to be angry at Japan.... WWII was 61 years ago..... people who are like 65 and older have a right to be angry.......

what the japanese did was wrong, but the chinese were doing the same to their own people at the same time.... neither are right both were wrong... but teaching young people the attitude that another nation does not have the right to live is not right, and that is what people learn here...... it's the same with the middle eastern countries saying that israel doesn't have the right to exist......

tell me your wouldn't be disgusted if you heard a 15-20 year old jewish person say "all germans should die".... that's exactly what happens here.....

although i am aware you're just using the typical "ad hominum" attack, i'll address it anyways...... ......

i've lived in china for 1.5 years now including the middle of nowhere china (handan city, hebei)

i know tons about this country, i've read tons about this country, both published by foreigners and chinese nationals....

i go out with chinese people all the time....


"I don't think anyone in China actually think that Taiwan is being governed by the Chinese government or that they are one economic unity. This topic is more complicated than how you've simplified it to..."

actually they do...

educated chinese people are fine as individuals, but in a group, the groupthink is extremely high.

i actually do enjoy my stay in China..... but there are a lot of things that need to change......same as i enjoy the US, but there are things that need to change there...... in fact a lot of countries have problems that need to change...... just because i am critical of china doesn't mean i am not critical of all countries.....

1.5 years ago i didn't arrive with these attitudes at all, this has all occurred since i have been here......i try to like china, but some things here make it so hard to do so......

in fact 99.9% of the things i dislike are a direct or indirect result of what a communist government has done to this country

i'm critical, because if you aren't critical, things don't change

heck, i'm not even american, which you probably assumed about me.


now that i've addressed that, let's get back on the topic of censorship and copyright infringement.

[Brad]

Jesus.

For crying out loud, gsub(/\.+/,".") please.

You hurt my brain.

[Banana]

Isn't there already dissention in China? Underground streams of information? Activists speaking up against their government?

Let them do the job. It's their country. Chinese will be more likely listen to their own people before a blue-eyed foreign devil. Especially that in many ways, European and USA is responsible for making China today.

When King George III raised taxes, the 13 colonies didn't immediately revolt. It was a period of what? 5? 10? years and after considerable amount of efforts spent in talking to King and the Parliment, after they decided to add *more* taxes, along with wars and whatnot that the colonists wanted no part of. Revolution takes time.

As a counterexample, everyone has been busy in 60s and maybe 70s (?) trying to oust Castro, yet he remained in power. Despite all his eccentricity and drive for power, at least he doesn't go around doing stupid things that would piss off Cubans to the point of actually revolting against him. He has provided education and health care so people can't really be that outraged, even if he throw a few unruly people in prison.

China Communist Party is now much more prudent, and in some way, more progressive than they were before the Tiannensen (spelling?) Square Massacre. So far, their economic model is actually shifting toward a free market (albeit with a sort of oversight organization to keep the "ideology" or something), and they've made some significant progress in development of China, which is necessary to keep up with the population.

In short, you can censor information all you want, but if people aren't cared for, you will be ousted. That's what really matter. If they just censored pornography, I really don't think many will really bother, (and for those who really must get their hands dirty, will find a way). If they lied about oh say, economic wellbeing regularly, it eventually will surface to the people that something is amiss. That's what happened under communism.

My $.02.

[intlplby]

Yes there are underground voices of dissention......

they are constantly arrested and jailed ... check out the annual summary as www.rsf.org ... if you want to get an idea of how successful they are...... journalists in any country that are trying to say things the way it is need all the help they can get...... bad things happen when good people do nothing....

i'm not blue-eyed, nor a "foreign devil"

what exactly do you mean that "European and USA is responsible for making China today. ".... please expound on that....

"In short, you can censor information all you want, but if people aren't cared for, you will be ousted. That's what really matter. If they just censored pornography, I really don't think many will really bother, (and for those who really must get their hands dirty, will find a way). If they lied about oh say, economic wellbeing regularly, it eventually will surface to the people that something is amiss. That's what happened under communism."

not necessarily true.... look at north korea..... heck go watch "North Korea: A Day In The Life"


while the party has been progressive in making change, it still does a tons of things which are quite orwellian in nature.....

There are hundreds of revolts in china every year, all of which are quickly and quietly crushed by the PLA..... a bunch of farmers were mowed down by machine gun only a few months ago in the south of china.... none of my students had heard about it...... i forget the figure i last heard, but it's in excess of 1,500 uprisings of some form or another per year in the countryside......

the only thing which has changed since tian'an'men square is that it is more swiftly and quickly dealt with so that most people never even hear about it, either in china or abroad.



in the mid nineties, freedom of speech on the internet was an issue in the US.... one of the reponses were petitions and the blue ribbon campaign...... in the US, petitioning, demonstrations and lobbying is a way to enact social legislative change...... in china that isn't an option.... if you try to exercise that right you go to jail (reference www.rsf.org)...... what i suggested above is an effective to way to force awareness of censorship by authorities upon the populace.....

in america you can see what half a nation of people RDFed into thinking there were WMDs in Iraq has done...... that's over 150 million million people duped that has caused america to enter into an unnecessary armed conflict....... in china the potential is even worse with 1.3 billion and a relatively non-existent dissident voice.....

in addition you have the issue of self-censorship..... the method above defeats both censorship and self-censorship.......

[Banana]

Originally Posted by intlplby Yes there are underground voices of dissention...... snip...bad things happen when good people do nothing....

Government can handle so many uprisings before it eventually collapses. It's a matter of time. However, it's not as simple to get other countries involved. For one thing, it's generally bad manners to be involved in other's internal affairs. Another thing is, both forunately and unfortunately, other countries are dependent on China, and we would have some serious economic problem if China went south. So the countries has a interest in keeping communists in power and hoping that economic progression will pave the way for better government. This has a mixed success so far. IIRC, Hong Kong was given to PRC, but for most puproses, it's still pretty much sovereign.

i'm not blue-eyed, nor a "foreign devil"

My point was simply that like it or not, nationalism still stirs something in people, and they are more likely to listen to their own than someone outside, even if the outsiders has good intention.

what exactly do you mean that "European and USA is responsible for making China today. ".... please expound on that....

This was more rooted in what they did back in early 1900s. They wanted China's goods, but China didn't see a need to trade. So they basically forced themselves into, bought opium to China to offset the deficit, and everyone wanted a piece of China. This pretty much fucked up the society and gave rise to Mao.

while the party has been progressive in making change, it still does a tons of things which are quite orwellian in nature.....

So has many other "developed" and "civilized" countries. You cited USA as being victim of political wrangling that led to war in Iraq. Why should China government be expected to behave better than those "civilized" boys?

There are hundreds of revolts in china every year, all of which are quickly and quietly crushed by the PLA..... a bunch of farmers were mowed down by machine gun only a few months ago in the south of china.... none of my students had heard about it...... i forget the figure i last heard, but it's in excess of 1,500 uprisings of some form or another per year in the countryside......

Interesting. How did you get the info?

in the mid nineties, freedom of speech on the internet was an issue in the US.... one of the reponses were petitions and the blue ribbon campaign...... in the US, petitioning, demonstrations and lobbying is a way to enact social legislative change...... in china that isn't an option.... if you try to exercise that right you go to jail (reference www.rsf.org)...... what i suggested above is an effective to way to force awareness of censorship by authorities upon the populace.....

I believe Chinese Constitution already guarantees thosse rights. Not that means they are actually given to people. USA had bills of right for over 200 years, but they didn't have any meaning to us until only recently. A case in point is Freedom of Speech. In 1920, it was constructed so that speaking about communism didn't afford the proection of 1st Amendment on the reasoning it wasn't against Federal Government. Therefore, people were jailed for being communist activists. Only in 1960s or so, was it given more broader definition that allow people to speak about what they want, in their personal capactity.

in america you can see what half a nation of people RDFed into thinking there were WMDs in Iraq has done...... that's over 150 million million people duped that has caused america to enter into an unnecessary armed conflict....... in china the potential is even worse with 1.3 billion and a relatively non-existent dissident voice.....

I am not really concerned with how many people there are in a country. Even USA, the eminent superpower, has to play nice with other boys and girls. Because if USA doesn't, other kids may tease USA too much and won't let USA plays with their toys or whatever.

As states, they are all equals, however unequal may they be in terms of economic, military, or whatnot power, and they have to treat each other with equal respect. It's the only way to get what they need to remain in power. I think that communist party know that well.

[intlplby]

Hong Kong was given to PRC, but for most puproses, it's still pretty much sovereign.

yes, and no..... Hong Kong is still fairly soreign, but far less so than the PRC said.... the PRC said that it would not interfere at all with the issues in HK before it was returned, and although HK is still extremely different from the PRC, the PRC has definitely not done what it said and left it operating as it was before the return.

This was more rooted in what they did back in early 1900s. They wanted China's goods, but China didn't see a need to trade. So they basically forced themselves into, bought opium to China to offset the deficit, and everyone wanted a piece of China. This pretty much fucked up the society and gave rise to Mao.

this is overly simplifying the issue greatly and reads as "post hoc ergo procter hoc"....... the involvement of the british, french, germans, russians and japanese are contributing factors, but hardly the cause of what china is today....... with the exception of "the unequal treaties" very little has been done to china, that chinese people have not been directly involved in advancing...... there are so many barriers (cultural and linguistic) to doing anything in china, that nothing would be possible without the willful help of chinese people..... even complaints today about western corporations and companies coming to china and causing problems are complete bs since foreigners aren't even allowed more than 49% involvement with any business in china...... at least 51% of all exploitation of chinese people is done by other Chinese people.... China isn't like central and south america under spanish rule in the new world.....Chinese are by and large responsible for China's problems.... Europe and America's involvement was more a catalyst than anything else.

So has many other "developed" and "civilized" countries. You cited USA as being victim of political wrangling that led to war in Iraq. Why should China government be expected to behave better than those "civilized" boys?

i'm not saying that they should be expected to behave better..... i'm not saying there should be a double standard.... neither governments should create a RDF..........

Interesting. How did you get the info?

dozen or so blogs by chinese journalists, word of mouth.... there's no way to confirm the authenticity of course, but they are far more trustworthy than the chinadaily and xinhua...... usually they will pick up on a controversial story.... they are pretty trustworthy to a degree because often times they pick up on a story and the story is confirmed later by chinadaily/xinhua if the story is one that is big enough that beijing can't ignore it and can't silence it..... i.e. the benzene chemical spill in northeast china....... blogs such as peking duck, angrychineseblogger, eastnorthwestsouth, public enemy no. 1, stone camel, echoes, see lai, the horses mouth, glutter, etc.......



i'm not exactly sure how to respond to the last statement, since i don't exactly get what you mean....

[Mac+]

Originally Posted by stevegong China has every right to be angry at Japan. No one claims that the holocaust did not happen. Japan erases their brutal invasion from their textbooks, and glorifies the generals. This is like glorifying hitler. A lot of people are unaware of the Japanese atrocities in China and Korea. I don't think anyone in China actually think that Taiwan is being governed by the Chinese government or that they are one economic unity. This topic is more complicated than how you've simplified it to...

quoted for emphasis

The Nanjing massacre was absolutely horrendous ... I can't put it into words.

In fact, I'm actually surprised by your tone intlplby and find this thread tiring to wade into.

However, I feel duty bound to add my 2 cents.

Censorship is the least of their worries at the moment. As for IP, I am sure they are ruing the fact that a lot of the inventions they gave the world have not been given due respect either ... or maybe, they're not.

To me, they seem to just get on with life. When confronted with an obstacle they simply overcome the problem or find a way around it and move on. In fact, I think this is a typical behavioural trait of the Zhong Guo ren. They are a "can do" nation of people. Many times I've been amazed at how one man will haul a bag of refuse three times his size down the steps at Sun Yat Sen's mausoluem, or how a couple will steer a massively overloaded tricycle cart around the streets of Nanjing full of building materials for some construction zone kilometres away. As I said, these people just get on with it. They don't always put in a stellar performance, mind you, but they simply keep plugging away.

On a personal note, with regard to IP and censorship:

• I have made a conscious decision not to support piracy (no CDs or DVDs purchased) - basically I don't want to condone dishonesty. It's only me, but you have to stand up for what you believe in. I think it would be hypocritical to slap China in the face for their disrespect of IP laws and, at the same time, happily pay only 9 yuan for the latest release (or even yet to be commercially released) DVD.
• To "fight fire with fire" in relation to censorship is myopic. I think it is best to serve as a good example. Although, I would like to bring julesstoop's post on this matter to your attention again:

Originally Posted by julesstoop I think we (USA, UK and a few others) have learned by now that it close to impossible to force your ideals upon another culture. We hold freedom of speech and information in very high regard, the chinese - at this moment in time - simply might have other priorities.

As he said, it's probably not high on their agenda at the moment.

[SKMDC]

National Geographic did a piece about agricultural rebellions a few issues ago and it did seem to be pretty widespread, it seems that city leaders have been taking prime farmland from the locals and selling it to corporate farming concerns for massive payoffs. A few cases of rioting and retaliatory police tactics have been documented.

Only after they realized that western journalists were on to the story did Beijing step in and restore the land rights and punish the corrupt city leaders.

It's a long walk to freedom, and as much as you want snap your fingers and make it happen tomorrow, it's not going to happen that way. The whole world is watching and unfortunately for HK one step backward will eventually mean two steps forward for the PRC. Commerce is addictive.

Keep in mind, less than fifty years ago in the United States, 175 years or so after we declared our Independence based on the notion that all men are created equal, we had separate laws for black people.

They had dogs and firehoses set upon them and were attacked indiscriminately by law enforcement, the whole world was watching then as well.

[intlplby]

The Nanjing massacre was absolutely horrendous ... I can't put it into words.

i wholeheartedly agree, but that is not what this thread is about .....

Censorship is the least of their worries at the moment. As for IP, I am sure they are ruing the fact that a lot of the inventions they gave the world have not been given due respect either ... or maybe, they're not

you could say the same for any inventions prior to the creation of the corporation as an entity allowed to own IP rights regardless of national origin.... we're not exactly paying royalties to the inventor of the wheel are we.

As he said, it's probably not high on their agenda at the moment.

i agree.... not at the moment and culturally not for a long time..... here's something from "My Country and My People" by Lin Yutang on the issue

Here we seem to have laid our finger on the fatal disease of the body politic, and to see the origin of that indifference which explains the proverbial inability of the Chinese people to organize themselves. It would seem that the curing of the disease is simple, by having constitutional protection for people's civil rights. Yet no one has seen the far-reaching consequences of this. No one desires it. No one sincerely wants it.

-Lin Yutang "My Country and My People" p.49 (1929?)


Lin addresses that a major cultural difference between Chinese and the rest of the world is exactly what you pointed out - Their indifference, patience and as he puts it their "old roguery"

it's this attitude that i probably find the most intolerable as a foreigner - the patience and indifference to deal with crap without making the slightest effort to ameliorate the situation....... some may call the level of patience admirable and some may call it outright laziness..... it's probably somewhere in between.... where you stand on the issue is relative to whether you are Chinese or Foreign......

Chinese tend to see this indifference as a virtue...... for obvious cultural differences under which i was raised, i openly admit that i find it stupidly fatalistic and defeatist...it's probably the most frustrating thing to deal with in China.... whenever i address an problem and give suggestions on how it can be improved, i just get the reply that they are aware it's a problem, but "I know [it's bullshit/crap/stupid/etc], but it's China".... especially from my boss......

(i highly recommend the above book. if you read it you will notice it is overtly racist and has much of the tone of racial superiority flaunted by aryans/nazis at times, it dichotomizes to an extreme, it relies heavily on traditional chinese myth, poetry etc... it is rife with logical fallacies over and over again..... however, it makes some astute observations and of most interest is not so much the content, but how the author approaches the content...... it is classically chinese in mindset and approach.... i think it is considered by chinese people to be the best if not the best insight into how chinese think now and thought prior to the communist government...... you'd have to read it to know what i mean....)

anyways.... back to censorship and IP......

what happens there does affect the US....microsoft has even removed blogs located in america that are not in beijing's interests...... we should be holding these companies accountable