[kieran]

I completely get that people are against vaccines (I don't understand why, but I get it)

All of the vaccines we have do cause some side affects in a small portion of people that they're administered to.

What I don't understand this time, is that there are a lot of people who were not anti-vaccines prior to the COVID vaccines that are now all of a sudden strongly opposed to them. (I do get it, but politics....)

And regarding the last part about Autism being on the rise, it's more of a case of autism being able to be diagnosed accurately rather than just labeling people different things. I think there was probably always the amount of autistic people in the population that we have, the diagnosis was just scattered amongst a lot of other things.

[psmith2.0]

I got my second jab last Wednesday (Pfizer). After my first one three weeks prior, I just felt sleepy and my upper left arm was a bit tender/sore that night. After my second one, the sleepiness hit me that evening (I went to bed about 8:30 last Wednesday) and my entire body felt slightly achy (not pain, just that almost tickle-like feeling when someone knuckle-punches your muscle...all my bendy parts - knees, ankles, wrist, shoulders, etc. felt that way.

I woke up around 3:30am to pee and all that was gone. I had just the slightest bit of headache in my forehead, but even it was gone when I woke up for good 3-4 hours later. So, on both days, three weeks apart, any effects I had were within 24 hours of my injection (10am both times), weren't severe, didn't lay me out and were completely gone by the following morning.

I was never "anti-" anything, but I also wasn't eager to rush right out and be first in line either. But I'm never that way, period, about anything, so...

Once I saw that people weren't turning purple and their dicks falling off or anything, I dutifully made an appointment on my timetable/comfort level (maintaining the whole masking, social distance, etc. stuff in the meantime). I've done everything asked of me for the past 14 months, so there.

My conscience is clear and I've not been part of the problem. I wasn't at spring break three months ago acting like an unhinged asshole amongst an unmasked, shoulder-to-shoulder crowd of hundreds of strangers. I've not been the cause of fistfights or loud debates in grocery stores re: mask protocol. I've not had the cops called on me to eject me from Outback because I wanted to make a stand on something or other, making myself an annoying pain-in-the-ass to others. I spent last Halloween, Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Year's and my birthday alone for the first time in my entire life. By choice. Because I didn't feel like a big gathering was wise. So, yeah...I've tried to do everything right, to where I can lay my head down at night and at least say "okay, I'm not the reason this stupid shit keeps dragging out...".

And that's still how I feel. I'm double-jabbed and still being smart/careful in my day-to-day. So bug off, world.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by PB PM I can see how some people think that way. If the links my super right wing friend sends me are correct (no chance of that given the sources), 63% of vaccinated people will die of heart failure after three years.

There's very little chance that the left will ever adopt any idea of objective truth. It's harmful to the cause.
But despite raising some right wing bogeyman every time you want to drown out the facts, reality says otherwise.

Evangelicals and Catholics have posted impressive vaccination numbers. It's people without religion who are lagging behind.
Hollywood celebrities have led the antivaxxer cause for years.

The biggest anti-vaxxer of 2020 was Kamala Harris, who went on national/world television to scaremonger that Donald Trump was somehow personally approving the vaccine and that she was hesitant to take a vaccine that had not been properly vetted. Plenty of libs echoed that call, and it's all available for the world to see.

[PB PM]

Always got to bring your gods into it eh? Always insinuating everyone other than you is some mindless left wing commi or something. There are plenty of non-religious right wingers (the person in question is, but that's irrelevant), so not sure where this came from. Nobody said anything about it your religion.

[Frank777]

On the internet, the phrase "super right wing" is almost always code for religious conservative.

And you have previously said in this thread that "all the anti-vaxxers you know are Christians."
The sentiment that Christianity is driving anti-vax sentiments has been expressed a number of times in this thread.

The data we are seeing now seems to profoundly disagree with that assessment.

[PB PM]

The anti-vaxxers I know personally, were, and still are Christians. It's not an assessment, it's fact. Many Christian I know aren't. You seem to have this misconstrued idea that I must hate Christians or something, simply not true. I do not like the Church, totally different things. Also many Christians I know are not super right wing. You have a way of making mountains out of mole hills. I have more than enough Christian friends and never have these problems with them. Anyway this thread is about COVID, not our personal feelings on religion.

[kscherer]

I have an idea: Let's call each other names. That'll fix everything!

FWIW, my cousin is a hard-core atheist and he's one of the most politically conservative people I know.

One of my wife's close friends is a hard-core, way-out-there-in-left-field liberal and she was anti-masking from day one!

Moral of the story: Wrapping people up into neat little boxes will always backfire on you.

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by kscherer I have an idea: Let's call each other names. That'll fix everything!

...

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by kscherer I have an idea: Let's call each other names. That'll fix everything!

Works for me! Let me know when to start.

[Ryan]

My employer just canceled our office re-openings.

[drewprops]

Had a fascinating conversation with someone yesterday who is still "waiting" to get vaccinated, and from the sound of it they will continue to wait indefinitely.

We discussed how some people in the African American community (like him) are not getting vaccinated. I mentioned a conversation I'd had earlier in the day with a friend we have in common (who is also black) who could not understand why younger folks who were well past the Tuskegee generation were resisting vaccination.

That's when the non-vaccinated person shared an interesting blend of factors informing their reluctance. Two standouts were:

1) a distrust in the virus because Trump was the president whose administration launched the funding to acquire vaccinations, and

2) a non-joking reference to the possibility that microchips could be in the vaccines.

The microchip bit prompted an unexpectedly passionate response from me because the person I was speaking to has never exhibited a strong understanding of science or technology - it's just not their bag.

I only understand the silicon chip fabrication process from a layman's perspective, but I described as best I could how leading chip fabricators have been in a race to shrink the components on chips for scalable efficiency and are only just now getting down to 4 nanometers and below for these transistor elements, and that those are just the *elements* on a chip, not a fully functional microchip. My lecture then strayed into yield - the percentage of functional chips produced on each wafer of silicon (which is never 100%).

The cost of manufacturing minuscule chips to be injected into peoples' bodies would be astronomical, and for what purpose? What could those chips actually accomplish without input or output sources? And even if our chip fabrication were advanced enough to manufacture tiny computers designed to travel in bloodstreams and avoid being attached by white blood cells, what could they DO?

Maybe that will be possible one day but we're at least a few years down the road from genocidal murder bots (I did NOT tell him this).

But seriously, they're making new people all the time - you are NOT as important as you think you are to ANYBODY else but maybe your momma and your DOG.

The next bend in the river of things they were concerned about was the percentile of people who have died from the vaccine, which is a number that is more than a zero but seemingly unprovable. The CDC has information on this.

The final argument was that there could be all sorts of other chemicals in the vaccines - things that we don't know about. Another person I know has a mother in law who is very allergic to eggs, and was concerned that the vaccines could contain eggs and couldn't take the vaccine "because they won't tell us what's in the vaccine" which seems reasonable.

The person I was speaking with yesterday didn't articulate their concern as well as the other friend did, but I understood what they were saying.

So basically, they have taken the branch on the decision tree that weighs the unknowns of the vaccine more heavily than the knowns of the virus. Nothing in my conversation will change their mind, but it was an interesting conversation.

And, shit, if they DID die from the vaccine wouldn't I feel like an ass?




...

[PB PM]

Of course the response to fear of allergic issues for your friend with the vaccine is to talk to a doctor, but then I remembered you are in the US where such a visit costs cold hard cash upfront. I’m sure getting testing for such allergies isn’t cheap either for people without medical coverage.

[Ryan]

FYI, the CDC says none of the vaccines contain eggs:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...s/Moderna.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...-BioNTech.html

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...s/Janssen.html

[Capella]

None of the vaccines contain eggs or dairy.

Other vaccines do. Some flu contain egg (not all). The TDAP is cultured on / contains dairy, as does the standalone DP for diptheria-pertussis, so I'm completely unvaccinated for both now after my last TDAP booster attempt ended in anaphylaxis. I was very carefully reading the ingredient lists as each one obtained FDA access auth to make sure I was going to be able to take them; if I couldn't get vaccinated for allergen reasons, and then I got it from some chucklefuck who could didn't get vaccinated because 'microchips' or 'mah freedoms', I would be livid and want to punch their faces in.

[Dr. Bobsky]

The issue with Frank's assessment here is that in the US the causative correlation between right-wing Christian ideology, and right-wing Political ideology is nearly perfect. There may be outliers because nearly perfect is not perfect, but it is best to understand this as a feature of American political life; this holds true for almost all denominations with the US. The Catholic bishops in the US are far more right-wing and politically active than the vatican ever was; same for the anglicans, and other protestant churches. Hell, California Quakers are named after an American state and reflect a right-wing ideology in an what is often a liberal church...

[Frank777]

Again, if you have any real hard data that right-wing Christians, or Christians of any kind, are as a group driving down vaccination rates, feel free to post them.

I've already posted a study showing the opposite.

Studies asking Americans why they remain unvaccinated always seem to bring up Donald Trump's role in overseeing the vaccine program. That doesn't sound like it's being driven by any "right-wing" ideological concerns. That sounds as though a certain party used vaccine misinformation to play politics during a federal election.

And the messaging stuck with a solid portion of their base.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Again, if you have any real hard data that right-wing Christians, or Christians of any kind, are as a group driving down vaccination rates, feel free to post them. I've already posted a study showing the opposite. Studies asking Americans why they remain unvaccinated always seem to bring up Donald Trump's role in overseeing the vaccine program. That doesn't sound like it's being driven by any "right-wing" ideological concerns. That sounds as though a certain party used vaccine misinformation to play politics during a federal election. And the messaging stuck with a solid portion of their base.

You're being obtuse. The vaccination rates are directly proportional to the amount of voter share that Biden won. So it isn't democratic voters driving down vaccination rates, and it isn't democratic states where the outbreaks are taking their toll.

And your claim is easily disproven:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberth...h=4473a6a92ad4

Frank, I know you want to live in a world where the bible is the literal truth, but your faith in your fellow Christian is woefully misplaced...

[kieran]

New York City is now requiring proof of vaccination status in order to partake in any indoor activity.

I'm glad they're doing it. We need to make it clear that not getting vaccinated will cause inconveniences for those people.

[turtle]

I can't be excited about that personally. The government is mandating things that it shouldn't. I get the "reasons" behind it. To me it is handing over freedoms for the sake of safety.

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

We will all get through this pandemic no matter what we do. The human race has been through this crap before just with different names. no I'm not recommending we call just go out and be stupid, but there needs to be less government, not more. More never solved anything.

[Dr. Bobsky]

That’s patently false Tony. We don’t live in the natural state because we’ve agreed to be governed and there are copious benefits to this: common defence, preserved common infrastructure, education systems, safety regulations on food and medicines etc. This sort of hyperbolic pseudo-libertarian statement propagates a wilfully dishonest assessment of reality and makes people who purport it look like they’ve either drunk a bad batch of koolaid or are so entitled that they don’t really understand how any of this works…

[PB PM]

No doubt. If you don’t want government, feel free to not use publicly funded roads, and other services it provides. After all, traffic laws restrict your freedom and liberty. Good luck with that. Also notice that Franklin was talking about temporary safety. Pandemics can last for centuries, and the way this one is going now I wouldn’t be surprised if we are fighting it for a very long time. Doesn’t sound temporary to me.

[kieran]

I'm not entirely thrilled with the government encroachment here either, but in this instance, I'm all for it.

This is a pandemic that is going to continue for years if left to it's own devices.

We have the ability to massively shortly that timeline with a substantial number of unnecessary deaths and infections stopped from happening.

When people refuse to participate in something that will benefit the greater good with substantial consequences, it's time for the government to intervene.

That being said, this isn't taking something necessary away from you if you choose not to get vaccinated. Eating in a restaurant, working out at a gym, going to a movie, etc... are things that plenty of people get by without doing so not that big of a deal in my opinion.

I also don't think this goes far enough in one regard. Vaccines should have been required for air travel as soon as they were available to everyone over 12. It's absurd that we allow people to travel across the country/world without having been vaccinated.

[tomoe]

What is the material difference between having to provide proof of ability to drive and proof of vaccination? They both kind of seem the same to me.

[drewprops]

The people I know who are not getting vaccinated would answer that question by saying that a driver's license doesn't involve putting something into their body.

I personally think these people are foolish for not getting vaccinated.

If my friends or family die because they didn't get vaccinated I may never forgive them.



...

[kieran]

There are more than a few members of my family that are not vaccinated.

I haven’t seen most of my family in almost two years because of Covid.

They want me to go to family gatherings and bring my 2 year old.

I cannot even imagine my anger if I did that and they somehow passed Covid to her.

I’m staying far away from them until they get vaccinated.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky You're being obtuse. The vaccination rates are directly proportional to the amount of voter share that Biden won. So it isn't democratic voters driving down vaccination rates, and it isn't democratic states where the outbreaks are taking their toll.

That's the most unscientific thing I've heard about Covid in a while. You think there's a straight line between Biden voters and vaccination rates?

So the anti-vaxx circles that have ringleaders in Hollywood and other progressive enclaves that were fighting vaccinations years before the Chinese lab leak just magically disappeared? The lower youth vaccination rates mean that the 18-24's have suddenly become Republicans? California's having an extremely hard time with Covid, and last I checked Larry Elder hadn't been elected yet.

Reuters says that CDC data shows it is events that have been driving the outbreaks. Here's what Chicago looked like this past weekend.
Is Chicago suddenly a Republican stronghold?

Maybe instead of trying to use a crisis to demonize a demographic you don't like, just acknowledge the situation is far more complicated than any one group in a country of 350 million. Wariness of big government is baked into much of the American psyche, with good reason. The country's founders left home to escape persecution. One of the nation's best-known historical flashpoints is a harbour-polluting tax protest. To claim that US Christians have some kind of special monopoly on these feelings is silly.

And again, no-one on this board has been able to point to any major Christian leaders in the country that are openly advocating the anti-vaxx position.

There is vaxx hesitancy among Christians. But aside from a few no-name nutcases with YouTube videos saying that it's the Mark of the Beast, there doesn't seem to be any active anti-vaxx movement of any significance among church-going Americans.

I shouldn't have to explain here that just because there's a town in, let's say, Kansas, where there's a pocket of hesitancy and most of the people in that town attend church, it does not mean that church attendance is the driving factor in the hesitancy. That's just basic logic and reasoning.

The overwhelming number of studies I've seen point to Rural/Urban splits and Age splits as deciding factors. And that makes sense because Rural Americans would seem to be much better placed to survive without the vaccine (at least before Delta), and the death rates have clearly broken is favour of anyone younger than 70.

The fact that America's rural states are predominately Christian is true, but someone needs to show how that's relevant the hesitancy. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of intolerant progressives using a crisis as cover to demonize a faith group. And I remember when that used to be a bad thing.

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky Frank, I know you want to live in a world where the bible is the literal truth...

I do live in the world where the Bible is the literal truth. You'll get there eventually.

[drewprops]

I can confirm from conversations with Democratic-voting African American friends and colleagues that "Hesitancy Groups" (HGs) are not politically monolithic. I have not yet ascertained a Christian-based religious connection yet.

People in the HGs that I've spoken with have a lack of trust in the president of the opposing party, a distrust of government in general, and a general distrust of the reliability of scientific messaging.

...

[tomoe]

Proportional != straight line.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by Frank777 That's the most unscientific thing I've heard about Covid in a while. You think there's a straight line between Biden voters and vaccination rates?

There actually is as far as these things go. This is from April, but the trend has continued, it even remains when you look at per county rates. So much for your understanding of any of this.

And the rest of your post is just you arguing with straw men or being batty about your Christian cult's bible. The vaccine hesitancy amongst Christians in the US is almost certainly political motivated so much so religious leaders have felt unmotivated to speak up for vaccinations. To think: Church leaders are offering tacit approval of vaccine deniers because politically it would be unpopular. It looks like it isn't progressives suppressing churches...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Frank777 That's the most unscientific thing I've heard about Covid in a while. You think there's a straight line between Biden voters and vaccination rates?

There absolutely is a strong correlation.

Originally Posted by Frank777 So the anti-vaxx circles that have ringleaders in Hollywood and other progressive enclaves that were fighting vaccinations years before the Chinese lab leak just magically disappeared?

The "Chinese lab leak" isn't really proven, and it's kind of moot. If the Chinese are to blame, all the more reason to protect yourself, no?

No, the esoteric anti-vaxx left wing milieu hasn't disappeared. But the right-wing "just asking questions" "it's experimental" "your risk of COVID is very low" post-hoc rationalization milieu seems to be far greater, as far as correlation to vaccination numbers is concerned.

Originally Posted by Frank777 Wariness of big government is baked into much of the American psyche, with good reason.

Funny how having the largest military budget or being invasive about the female body never counts as big government.