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thegelding
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2004-09-01, 17:56

ok, 64 mb of ram is likely more than i need...but....

do you think we will find that the iMac's graphics card can be updated?
or will we be given a BTO option soon? revision B?

i don't "need" a new computer (just like i didn't need that iPod mini)...but i will likely get a 20" iMac (20 inch lcd and G5 computer for the price i paid for my iMac FP 15" computer 2 plus years ago!!!)...anyway, can wait for revision b or whatever, but waiting really isn't much fun...

love the 1.8 G5, will be fine for the life of the computer (4 to 6 years i usually run them)
love the HD (will get the 250 gig one)...will, likely, be fine for the life of the computer
love love the screen size...i've played with the 20" apple ACD and like the real estate greatly....will be fine for the life of the computer
love the ram...an idiot like me could never need more than 2 gigs

so the only question is the graphics card...64 is great now...and will be fine for at least a couple of years....but will i get 4 to 6 years out of it??

of course i still run a 1999 iMac DV with it's graphics card...

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
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DMBand0026
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2004-09-01, 19:05

Are you gaming on the computer? If not, the card in there will be more than fine.
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InactionMan
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2004-09-01, 20:15

Here's the official list o' things you can replace from the new iMac:

Quote:
Think you need a new part? You can replace many of your iMac G5's parts yourself.

The iMac G5 is designed to make it easy for you to install replacement parts if you need to. The parts you can install yourself are:

AirPort Extreme Card

Memory - DDR 400 MHz (PC3200) SDRAM

Hard drive

Optical drive

Power supply

LCD display

Modem card

Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, and so forth).
Here be the link...http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86812

It seems that Apple will let you replace just about anything inside so why not the Graphics card. Now I just have to decide between the 17 or 20 inch.
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iCreate
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2004-09-01, 20:56

I would of thought something better than a 5200 Ultra would of been offered on the high-end, but then anything higher than that would need a fan to cool the GPU.
Which is probably why it wasn't an option. On a PC a 5200 Ultra is really nothing even with DX9 support built into the cards. Don't know how OpenGL support translates into performance on the Mac vs PC.
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Messiahtosh
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2004-09-01, 21:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by iCreate
I would of thought something better than a 5200 Ultra would of been offered on the high-end, but then anything higher than that would need a fan to cool the GPU.
Which is probably why it wasn't an option. On a PC a 5200 Ultra is really nothing even with DX9 support built into the cards. Don't know how OpenGL support translates into performance on the Mac vs PC.
And it might eat into PM sales.
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InactionMan
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2004-09-01, 21:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiahtosh
And it might eat into PM sales.
I don't think it would. Even with a better GPU the iMac would still have a 2GB limit on RAM, a single processor and none of the expansion of the PowerMac.
It sounds like Apple will let the user replace everything, including the processor (when and if companies start offering upgrades). And didn't Schiller say in the keynote that it was a standard AGP 8x or whatever?
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Patchouly
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2004-09-01, 22:32

If the issue was heat and not having to put a fan on the GPU, then they should have at least made it 128MB (I don't thinks it's all about heat though. You see very powerful 128MB GPUs in Notebooks and portable desktop monsters and most of them do not use separate GPU fans).

I've seen various benchmarks with various graphics cards that show that there is a significant increase in performance (with the same GPU) going from 64MB to 128MB. However, there is only marginal performance gains going from 128MB to 256MB. So the way I see it, a 128MB GPU (even if not the greatest) is the sweet spot in terms of video memory. Why Apple skimped and didn't go with this inexpensive option on the 20" is beyond me, especially when Tiger will dipping into the GPU more so than Panther (allegedly).

I love the new iMac, but I am going to wait until Revision B. I am hoping that in this revision they will improve on the current weak spots. I think they deliberately went with weaker specs this time around so that they can offer a decent update the next time around.

I predict this for the 20" iMac G5 RevB:


2GHz G5 (reasonable next step upgrade)
160GB HD (same drive, same upgrade option to 250GB is fine)
512MB RAM (it's a bit absurd that they are actually shipping to stores with 256MB!)
128MB GPU (or the option to add one)
8X SuperDrive (they are widely available now and are in many PC Notebooks)

…if and when this model is released, I am pressing that order button!

...open up your eyes and look around, it's just an illusion.
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psmith2.0
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2004-09-01, 22:42

You realize that'll probably be next spring, at the earliest, right?

But yeah, that's probably a good run-down of Rev. B specs/features. Is that drive being mounted vertically the reason these went with 4x SuperDrives instead of 8x? I'm guessing so. The eMac, for crying out loud, has an 8x SuperDrive...



What, exactly, makes this included nVidia card the bane of everyone's existence here and at other boards? It's, by far, been the source of the loudest griping and complaining.

Non-geek that I can be, I don't follow the "graphic card wars" as much as others. What gives? Is everything Apple is saying on their iMac pages regarding gameplay and all false? Or misleading? Or is this an area particularly given to Specwhoreitis, and it's gotta be high-end ATi 128MB or nothing?



What, specifically, makes this nVidia card so "sucky" and a target for scorn?
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thegelding
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2004-09-01, 23:16

very os advancement seems to be shunting more and more functions to the graphics card...over the next couple of years i expect the graphics card to be equal to the processor, if not more so...

64 is fine for me, but if i could BTO up to 128 i would in a heartbeat and feel better for it

just IMHO

g

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everything is food if you chew hard enough
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Messiahtosh
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2004-09-01, 23:32

An upgrade would be nice, considering a now slightly aging line of PowerBooks has an option for 128.

Not a big issue for me though, I'll need 3.5 to 4 years out of it for nothing more than video editing, photo, web-page stuff design, etc.

"We are reviewing some 9,000 recent UNHCR referrals from Syria. We are receiving roughly a thousand new ones each month, and we expect admissions from Syria to surge in 2015 and beyond." - Anne C. Richard, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration
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CrowFreak
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2004-09-02, 00:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0
Is that drive being mounted vertically the reason these went with 4x SuperDrives instead of 8x? I'm guessing so. The eMac, for crying out loud, has an 8x SuperDrive...
I'm pretty sure that the reason the drive is only 4X is the because it is a slim drive (also used in powerbooks). After doing a google search I couldn't find any slim DVD Burners that went beyond 4X. They may exist, I just couldn't find any. So it seems that was another sacrifice made to have the iMac be as thin as it is.
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Gizzer
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2004-09-02, 05:42

I think the non-upgradable graphics could become a real issue. For starters, in Tiger, if you don't have the right GPU, Core Graphics won't work as advertised at WWDC unless you have a compatible card.

Also, Motion only offers realtime effects (it's selling point) if you have the right card. It's similar to Panther's reliance on Quartz Extreme - it only works if you have the right card.

As Apple are beginning to heavily rely on the GPU just to run the OS, I think not being able to upgrade it could become a real pain.

For now, the new iMac GPU is fine, but what about when OS 10.7 is released?


What will be really cool, is if in January 2005, at MWSF when Steve offers the the latest revision of the iMac (probably too soon by January, but bear with me), he then says the new iMac now comes with a 2.0Ghz G5 and a nVidia Geforce 6xxx. We are also offering a replacement 6xxx module for all earlier G5 iMacs. That would be cool - the Mobo actually HAS upgradable graphics but they didn't tell us!

...On the other hand, it probably isn't a module and we are all shafted as per normal

Last edited by Gizzer : 2004-09-02 at 05:56.
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Brad
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2004-09-02, 07:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizzer
For now, the new iMac GPU is fine, but what about when OS 10.7 is released?
At the current rate of 1.5 years between major releases (Apple said it was slowing down releases), that would put it being in 2009 or 2010. A consumer-level Apple computer that stays up to date with the latest OS and can handle all of its features after five or more years? Surely you jest.

Quote:
...On the other hand, it probably isn't a module and we are all shafted as per normal
Of course! Apple doesn't want you to have a computer that will do everything until the end of time! Apple lives by selling computers. It can't stay alive if all existing users can upgrade through third parties instead of plunking down a new pile of cash every few years.

That's the thing people forget when they complain about Apple's limited options. Sure, it may be bad for the consumer, but it's a necessary evil for Apple. Offering more upgradable options in the lower end will result in some shape or form of lost sales (or delayed sales) in the future.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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thegelding
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2004-09-02, 08:08

damn you, stop being logical and let me bitch about not being able to BTO up to 128 mb graphics

g
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thegelding
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2004-09-02, 09:38

second generation---

128 MB graphics

and

back to colors

snow, "metal", and variation of iPod mini colors

g
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InactionMan
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2004-09-02, 10:18

Quote:
Mid-plane assembly (contains the main logic board, the G5 processor, fans, and so forth).
If Apple is allowing the end user to replace this chunk of the iMac, I think they are going to allow users to upgrade both the G5processor and the GPU. Has this level of access to the guts of the computer ever been allowed in an iMac?
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LudwigVan
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2004-09-02, 10:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan
Here's the official list o' things you can replace from the new iMac

(List snipped])

Here be the link...http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86812

It seems that Apple will let you replace just about anything inside so why not the Graphics card. Now I just have to decide between the 17 or 20 inch.
This is a question I've asked myself too since the iMac's revelation, as well as what other card is out there that can be inserted into new computer (anything Mac-compatible with greater oomph apparently needs a fan, with the possible exception of the ATI Radeon 9600 XT one can get for a PowerMac).

On another note, as I look at the photo of the computer's innards, I can't seem to find where the graphic card is. Perhaps I'm blind; can somebody point it out for me (if it's visible)?
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kscherer
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2004-09-02, 14:24

Keep in mind that according to Apple's support site at http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86812, they list the parts that the CONSUMER can replace by themselves! It says nothing about what a certified Mac-chanic might be able to replace in the old shopolla!

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psmith2.0
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2004-09-02, 14:28

At what point does official word become known on the ability of this GPU to be upgraded? Does someone just accidentally stumble across this fact one day? Is it not stated, yes or no, anywhere at apple.com?
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Luca
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2004-09-02, 14:33

How could you possibly upgrade the GPU in an all-in-one? First of all, it's not like there's a regular video card soldered onto the motherboard. The parts to the video card (GPU, VRAM, traces, heat sink, capacitors, etc) are all part of the iMac's motherboard. You could probably make a roughly rectangular area on the motherboard that is occupied by the video. Secondly, even if it was just a soldered-on video card, there's no AGP slot to put in a new card, and there's no video connector to connect to the video card's outputs. Is there a little internal cable inside the iMac with a DVI connector that connects to a DVI port on this fabled internal graphics card? I don't think so, it probably just hooks right into the video system and doesn't bother with a connector.

The only way you can possibly do video card upgrades for an all-in-one computer would be to have a daughtercard on the motherboard that can be removed and replaced with a new daughtercard. However, you wouldn't be able to use industry-standard AGP video cards, so upgrades would be expensive, difficult to produce, and unusable in anything but the machine they were built for.

PS: There are some older Dell laptops that have upgradable GPUs. Just so you know it has been done before. But it's not popular because the upgrades were very expensive, difficult to install, and sometimes didn't work quite right.
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psmith2.0
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2004-09-02, 14:37

Okay then, well this thread's closed. See ya!
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Moogs
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2004-09-02, 15:33

I don't think a 64MB video card is more than anybody needs if they're using OS X. Not at all. And VRAM is only going to become more and more important (as will the card's processing power) with Tiger and future releases. My next card will be 256MB for sure (skipping 128). Between how demanding games have gotten, and the system-level benefits we'll be able to derive from it (Core Image, etc.), it's going to be the next most important thing on your system after the Processing power (assuming you have a reasonable - or unreasonably large - amount of RAM).

...into the light of a dark black night.
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oldmacfan
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2004-09-02, 15:38

Well, what I can't seem to see is where the video ram slot is. If there is a slot then we have a glimmer of hope of replacing the 64 with 128.

On another note, Both Nvidia and ATI are working on PCIe Graphics cards for laptops that will be replaceable. It will not be like the PCIe slot on a regular motherboard. This technology will start getting used in PC laptops about the first of the year and maybe when the Rev B's hit the stands it will have been adopted by Apple.

I still believe that Monitor spanning should be a given with all Macs.

Mile 1
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Messiahtosh
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2004-09-02, 15:41

http://cio-today.newsfactor.com/stor...story_id=26707

From CIO Today, Apple's Tom Boger, director of worldwide product marketing.

Apple Faces Graphics Chip Criticism

Mr. Boger addressed criticism that the graphics processor on the iMac G5 is the same as what was on the older flat-panel iMac and not powerful enough for many game titles by saying the NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra graphics processor is "very capable and is the right solution for gaming on a consumer iMac. We're pleased with this solution. We think this card handles most capabilities."

When criticized for it small amount of graphics memory -- 64MB -- Mr. Boger defended the decision saying "hard core gamers" need to realize the G5 professional system might be a better answer for them. "If you want the pinnacle of gaming, you need to look at the Power Mac G5."

"We are reviewing some 9,000 recent UNHCR referrals from Syria. We are receiving roughly a thousand new ones each month, and we expect admissions from Syria to surge in 2015 and beyond." - Anne C. Richard, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration
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Chinney
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2004-09-02, 15:50

I’m not a gamer, but I think Apple’s logic here is just silly. If Apple really wants to capture part of that market, games should be able to work very well on mid-level desktops, like the new iMac. Why not put out a ‘gaming-optimized’version of the iMac and sell it for just a bit more. I see an intentional ‘cripple’ strategy here. I am not sure that Apple is doing itself any favours in doing this.

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JagSeal
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2004-09-02, 15:50

We aren't talking about the "Pinnacle" of gaming, we're talking about a basic gaming machine. Apple could have easily put a 64 or 128 MB Radeon 9x00 Mobility in the iMac.
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Messiahtosh
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2004-09-02, 16:06

Oh well, they didnt, but I'm still buying one.

I don't play games anyway, how many Mac users really do that much gaming anyway?
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Moogs
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2004-09-02, 16:12

oldmacfan: there is no "slot" for VRAM per se. VRAM is soldered onto whichever video card you have / purchase.
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applenut
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2004-09-02, 17:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs
oldmacfan: there is no "slot" for VRAM per se. VRAM is soldered onto whichever video card you have / purchase.
wasn't always like that.

the original imac could have its VRAM upgraded to 6MBs from 2.

as for the "pinnacle of gaming".....it also ships with the same graphic chip as the imac.
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oldmacfan
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2004-09-02, 17:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs
oldmacfan: there is no "slot" for VRAM per se. VRAM is soldered onto whichever video card you have / purchase.
Not always on a mac. Some of the original imacs had a vram slot in which the vram was removable/replaceable.
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