[Yochanan]

Creative's new Zen Vision:M (with video)






Creative Zen Vision:M 30GB ¥39,800

2.5 inches (320×240 pixel)
Music playback: Maximum approximately 11 hours
Animated picture playback: Maximum approximately 4 hours
Size: 62 ×104 ×19 mm
Weight: Approximately 166g

Plays 4 hours of video (or image playback) in MPEG-1/2/4, WMV, Motion JPEG, DivX 4/5 and Xvid formats.

iPod 30GB ¥34,800

2.5 inches (320×240 pixel)
Music playback: Maximum approximately 14 hours
Animated picture playback time: Maximum approximately 2 hours
Size: 61.8 × 103.5 × 11 mm
Weight: Approximately 136g

[psmith2.0]

Wow, that goes pretty far.

In addition to the general shape/appearance of the unit itself, you've got that green Aqua-like battery icon, the blue menu highlights. And in the photography of the product, you've got those Apple-y glossy table reflections below the product.

Definitely looks to be trading on the iPod vibe, no doubt.

A higher corner radius and reworked navigation scheme (what is that blue icon in the lower right for?) are about the only two things I see that make it different.

I guess it appeals to some folks (the FM tuner and so forth), but why go with a wannabe, and not the real thing? The iPod seems to beat the Creative product in every spec (except for "animated picture playback"...2 vs. 4 hours).

Whoop-di-doo...



Are we sure this isn't a mockup or gag? How ballsy - or dim - would Creative have to be? They could've made it silver or something, just to help offset it some.

[scratt]

*sniffs* .... Lawsuit smell?

[sirnick4]

Nice try Creative, but it still isn't an iPod

[Yochanan]

I found it on Engadget today. They included a link to the Japanese website Apple Brothers (Babel Fished of course).

I think Creative, after saying they were at war with iPod, are banking on the success of their patenting of the UI.

It plays DivX, and XviD etc. in that it has the advantage over the iPod.

Check their old version compared to the old iPod:



p.s. I have no idea what any of the buttons do on the new Zen.

[Yochanan]

Back in 2004, this is how it was:

[alcimedes]

Imitation is the sincearest form of flattery.

[psmith2.0]

Basically looks like they (like a lot of folks these days) sit around, watch what Apple does and then reacts accordingly.

And by "reacts accordingly", I mean "rip the idea completely off, but only in an uglier, clunkier fashion and outfit it with a navigation scheme a few degrees this side of supremely idiotic and useless...but make it look enough like the standard-bearer (but not so much that they get their balls sued sideways) in hopes that the Clueless Among Us™ just see something white and square-ish that plays digital music, and don't ask many more questions beyond that".



If Apple unveiled a piece of wood at MWSF, called it iBoard and sold it for $59, in 3-4 months you'd have about 8-15 takes on it, by everyone from Creative (of course) to Radio Shack. They might be cut slightly different, and maybe have some different grain or thickness. But it would still be a piece of wood, only not as handsome and smooth as Apple's.

And some dumb-butt would buy it because it supports some obscure, barely-used sanding technique, favored by 0.2% of the woodworking geek population, and no one else.

Then, at seven months, it's discontinued.

[psmith2.0]

You guys can take all your car analogies...and drive them right off a cliff!

I just made a woodworking analogy...top THAT.

[Dorian Gray]

Is Creative being not very creative again? The interesting detail is that the Creative model is nearly twice as thick as the iPod, yet costs more. Much as I like Apple, I don't want to see it become a Microsoft-like monopoly, so let's hope Creative fires its designers/industrial spies and hires somebody decent. The company's infamous "war" against Apple isn't going too well.

[Yochanan]

Off-Topic

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Is it weird that I've got a thing for the woman in the overstock.com commercials?

No, no it's not. She's pretty hot, but I have no idea who she is. Overstock doesn't have any info about her on their website, at least they didn't when I had money last.

[709]

I already get wood when buying an Apple product.

[chucker]

Creative fans, of course, will argue that this product is obviously superior because of included FM tuner and audio recorder, as well as vastly better video playback battery time. On the other hand, what's the downsides to Creative's choice? Slightly worse audio playback battery life, 73% more thickness, 22% more weight and even a slightly higher price. Not to mention what the customer won't notice: the clickwheel will provide a far better user experience in the long run than the vertical scroll wheel could.

What's left? The Creative probably lets you replace the battery in an easier way. A nice extra, but evidently not something most customers find terribly important. (Notice how many customers prefer proprietary batteries in thin digital cameras over AA batteries in thicker digital cameras. I personally don't, by the way.)

What's left? The two 'features', FM radio and voice recorder. I know there's extras for the iPod to add either of these features, but I don't think there's anything that provides both at a time; in addition, there's probably no solution that lets you use these (via the Dock connector) and yet have the iPod connected to a power outlet. A minor point, to be sure.

Is Creative going to sue Apple for the UI now, seeing as Creative has a patent on it? That would be... crazy.

[ast3r3x]

If these are out for christmas, some uninformed parents will get this for this kid when they ask for an iPod. Imagine the dismay of the kid when he opens his present and find this in there.

I'm not saying this is a bad product, it's pretty clean, and I think would function just fine...minus the annoyance of not having a scroll wheel. But it can't really compare to the iPod. It still has a big advantage nothing else has...iTunes.

[sunrain]

Originally Posted by alcimedes Imitation is the sincearest form of flattery.

I dunno...I think the bouquet of this is more like desperation.

None of these companies will make a dent until they can bring a slick package, soup to nuts.

[psmith2.0]

The two previous posts hit the nail on the head, IMO.

These other companies can put out tricked-out devices all they want (and some will go for it, I'm sure). Fine.

But most folks AREN'T ultra-geeks, given to constantly tinkering, mixing-and-matching, forever making sure their Brand A player works with Brand B software and Brand C download service.

That's just true.

There's just something nice, seamless and idiot-proof about the Apple solution that MOST folks are drawn to, and appreciate.

Some don't like it, I realize that.

But the sales figures and marketshare stats show that most DO.

So until these other guys can come out with an "iTunes killer" (which ain't gonna happen, IMO), they're always going to be runner-ups, constantly playing catch-up to Apple's "whole widget" offering.

Apple has such a strong foothold at this point: they were first out of the gate in a serious way. AND they have a powerful three-barrel attack: the player, the software AND the service. And as long as they do, they're the 800 pound gorilla in this field.

[ast3r3x]

Do you guys think something will topple the iPod within the next couple years? Ever?

I am just wondering because every minute that there isn't something stealing away market share from the iPod, it is becoming more ingrained in the way people handle their music. The iPod isn't the only investment you make when you buy it. You invest your time into controlling your music library from iTunes, and many people as we've seen are investing their $ into songs that only (yeah fairplay has a workaround) the iPod can play. What is going to make people start giving that up? A new format is one of the only things to get people to repurchase their music. As far as digital music goes, well there are different formats, but you only need to modify software to support something new. You do not always need a new player like physical formats. So what's going to topple the iPod? Apple can always incorporate a new codec to store music in the future.

Of course I don't buy from the iTMS because the quality isn't good enough. I am not a snob, I listen to 128kbps aac files even mp3s if no other is available. However I can't see buying lots of music in such quality.

[psmith2.0]

Originally Posted by ast3r3x Do you guys think something will topple the iPod within the next couple years? Ever?

No. And no.

Certainly not in the next couple years (how could it?). And even beyond then, for the very reasons you give, probably not.

I really think Apple has had a repeat, nearly 20 years later, of that whole PageMaker/Postscript/Laserwriter union that launched desktop publishing, and forever changed printing, graphic design, etc.

Only this time, all those elements are under one roof. We probably don't think much about it now, but in a decade or two, we'll look back to this "early 2000's period" as a huge turning point in how people bought, stored, shared, listened and enjoyed music...AND photos...AND home movies...AND most entertainment in general.

And Apple, as in 1984-1985, will be at the center of it.

But the cool thing is that THIS time it's an area of much wider impact and interest, compared to the "desktop publishing revolution" of the mid-80's.

Not everyone is a designer or typographer or works in the printing industry. But EVERYONE listens to music, takes photos, enjoys watching movies or TV, etc.

Apple's foothold into all this is so strong...I don't know how they could mess it up (but I'm sure they could...).

[Dorian Gray]

Come on, vanishingly few first-time buyers choose a portable music player because of the software that is bundled with it. A few more might go home and install iTunes and think it's nice, but they didn't walk around the shop looking at the players and thinking, "but does it come with good software?" Second-time buyers (still a minority: most people are buying their first iPod) are more likely to consider the software, but it will still play a distant second to the hardware itself.

iTunes is also far from perfect and, while not trivial, it would be well within the capability of a decent small software house to come up with a more consistent, less "black box" approach, while making the interface even simpler and more intuitive. (One obvious problem with iTunes: you can't encode a song in your library to a format other than the one you have specified in the import preferences. This is not easily discoverable.) I am stunned by the general level of design ineptitude embodied in most commercial software. Apple realises the importance of simplicity more than any other software company but even Apple's products are littered with idiotic inconsistencies that anyone on this board could spot in a moment. I can only imagine that the apparent failure of large companies to produce good software is a "can't see the wood for the trees" problem due to the complicated nature of getting a large team to work together.

The main reason for Apple's success is simply vastly better hardware than the competition. To be honest there's nothing technically brilliant about the iPod (with the important exception of the packaging, as highlighted by Creative's much larger player), but the iPod is drop-dead gorgeous and the competition is in complete disarray. Creative, losing money by the bucket-load, has spat out two dozen crap designs in an attempt to randomly find something that sticks (like Motorola's phone division), while iriver has demonstrated all the business acumen of Aunt Barbara's family soap-making operation (look at the bloody website for a start! ). Sony is incomprehensibly unable to design something with iconic potential, despite all its design know-how, and the company has made a catalogue of plain daft (sorry) decisions regarding proprietary formats and DRM. This has allowed Apple to build up a good head of steam, and it's now taking full advantage of its huge market share by buying up Flash memory (obviously the future for portable players of all capacities) at enormous discounts, which allows it to sell the iPod at a lower price than competing devices which are twice the size. The only consumers that remain for competitors are the ignorant parents duped by the colour white, and anti-Apple geeks.

Clearly Apple will be untouchable in the music arena for years to come, but make no mistake about it: this was a hardware victory.

[psmith2.0]

Well, I view it as a two-tier situation (or, rather, two groups...one isn't necessarily higher than the other):

1. Us "old-timers", who latched onto iTunes early on...before the iPod even existed. Maybe folks like us tend to place a bit more importance on that end of it than...

2. The recent iPod buyers and fans, with no previous Apple or iTunes experience. They get an iPod because it's "the thing to get", and they install the software it came with (or download it from Apple), and that's their experience. It's what they know. And they seem to like it.

Even the many PC-users I know who don't own an iPod are still using iTunes and iTMS, and most with no input/push from me. They've figured it out on their own, or have been intrigued by the dancing silhouettes or whatever.

But to me, I can't separate them...iTunes is a critical part of the mix (even more so since iTMS came into play), and I was into the software end of it WAY before I ever laid eyes - or hands - on an iPod.

I loved, and used, iTunes first. For a good long while. The iPod was merely a hardware afterthought that meant I could enjoy all that music I'd amassed and organized with iTunes in more places than at my desk, in front of my Mac.



But you're right...the recent comers were wowed by the hardware first, and everything else comes after. I agree.

But I bet they dig it to not end, the software component, and appreciate the "whole package" aspect of it...even if they can't quite point out why. I doubt many of them are earnestly "searching for something better", software-wise.

Probably a pleasant change for many of them, just to have everything work together - hardware AND software - like it should. We tend to take that granted as Mac users, don't we?

[macgeek2006]

NO. THIS ISN'T RIGHT. FUCKING HELL. THAT'S NOT GOOD. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP COPYING APPLE.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by macgeek2006 NO. THIS ISN'T RIGHT. FUCKING HELL. THAT'S NOT GOOD. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP COPYING APPLE.

WE'RE ALL GONNA DIEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by macgeek2006 NO. THIS ISN'T RIGHT. FUCKING HELL. THAT'S NOT GOOD. PEOPLE NEED TO STOP COPYING APPLE.

It's the key just above shift, with the light on. Just FYI.

Anyway, I think this is a little game of Brinkmanship that Creative are playing here. Just how close can they get it before Apple bites? It's almost as if they think they can win the case, and thereby break some of the stranglehold.

Interesting to see how it pans out.

[SledgeHammer]

Here ya go, pscates. She is Sabine Ehrenfeld.

[ast3r3x]

Your correct Dorian, I didn't mean to imply people were picking this because of iTunes. What I am saying is they are liking it so much because of iTunes. Other players have advantages and disadvantages, however from my experience— and that isn't very much, other players aren't as easy to manage as the iPod…because of iTunes.

Sorry…
A lot of people will go shopping around for a car when they want to purchase one, however some owners who have been treated well and pleased in every aspect during the ownership of their last car will go directly to the Bentley dealer and compare ONLY Bentley's. <- My brand of choice…but not my brand of affordability

[rasmits]

So, people wont buy your product because it's not an iPod. What do you do? Trick them into thinking they're buying an iPod!

[Batman]

Originally Posted by Yochanan Off-Topic No, no it's not. She's pretty hot, but I have no idea who she is. Overstock doesn't have any info about her on their website, at least they didn't when I had money last.

Her name is Sabine Ehrenfeld. There is some more info in this thread over at Macrumors.com

[Reid]

But does it play Ogg?

[Moogs]

I suppose Apple could call 'em on it in terms of look and feel but in terms of the interface, it still sucks bad. That thumbstrip or whateverTF it is looks pretty cheezy compared to Apple's. Unless they are way less expensive I don't know why anyone would buy that POS.

[Yochanan]

Originally Posted by Reid But does it play Ogg?

You know, I went to their excuse for a website and I still can't find that info.

I also have the Mac on mute. You'll see when you go there.