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*SPOILER WARNING* Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Reactions/Discussion


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*SPOILER WARNING* Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Reactions/Discussion
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evan
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2007-07-24, 09:36

So... what did everyone think? I finally finished the book late last night and was just completely awe-stricken. Harry Potter is literally the only thing on my mind right now as I trudge through work and I don't see it going away any time soon. The way everything seemed to come together in the end was just pefect, and there couldn't be a better way to end it than a massive battle at hogwarts. absolutely brilliant. I think I need to digest everything a little longer before I talk too much about it, there's still far too much of the book (and previous books) swirling through my head.

But what did you guys think? Feel free to not use the spoiler tags, that's what the title of the thread is for
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 09:48

Initially, I was down on the epilogue -- it seemed to say so little that I wondered why it was even necessary to have it (except to possibly quell any talk of additional sequels).

Then I thought about it -- the epilogue does three important things:

(1) It shows that Harry finally gets the one thing he never really had: a family.
(2) You find out that Harry has learned a lot about people (giving his son the middle name of Severus and the way he speaks about him).
(3) It doesn't pretend that "everyone just becomes friends" once the threat is gone (Draco and Potter's bare acknowledgment of each other).

I've seen complaints that it doesn't say enough --- but all the stuff "missing" isn't necessary to the themes of the book or the series. What jobs do the characters have when they grow up (who cares? what does that have to do with anything?)? Who's the Minister for Magic (again... this pertains to the core themes how, exactly?)? and so on.
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Kickaha
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2007-07-24, 10:10

The one scene that rang false to me was when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were on the run, and Dean, Ted Tonks, Griphook & Co just *happened* to end up next to them and divulge a major plot point. That bugged me.

Other than that? Nicely done.
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evan
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2007-07-24, 10:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
The one scene that rang false to me was when Harry, Ron, and Hermione were on the run, and Dean, Ted Tonks, Griphook & Co just *happened* to end up next to them and divulge a major plot point. That bugged me.

Other than that? Nicely done.
haha yeah, it was like in LOST when...

they find the parachute lady and the russian dude just HAPPENS to still be alive and run through, and just HAPPENS to be a field medic... then leaves and says to never speak of his appearance there...

but I mean from what I remember hte only thing they told the gang was that the sword in gringotts was a fake... which only gave them hope for the real sword. Snape ended up giving it to them regardless, so it's not like that little bit of eavesdropping really helped that much.

Last edited by Brad : 2007-07-24 at 10:23. Reason: Spoiler tag removed. Really, we don't need them here.
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mlipkin
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2007-07-24, 10:23

My main problem with the epilogue was just how it was written. I understand there needed to be one to tie things up and that somethings (like jobs) were unnecesary, but the fact that Rowling wrote it years ago shows. It sounds more like fanfic than the rest of the book. She should have rewritten it no matter how attached she was to the original draft.

Also, was it just me or did Lupin and Tonk's death seem really hollow? Maybe it was because so many other people died or just how she brushed over it but I didn't get the same sense of "oomph" as when, say, Dobby died.
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 10:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKrzyzewski View Post
but I mean from what I remember hte only thing they told the gang was that the sword in gringotts was a fake... which only gave them hope for the real sword. Snape ended up giving it to them regardless, so it's not like that little bit of eavesdropping really helped that much.
Which of course makes that scene even more kinda awkward and pointless.

I got a little fatigued with all the wand theory stuff; it felt needlessly technical. But overall, I really did enjoy the book. I was surprised to find myself quite emotional when Dobby died...
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Kickaha
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2007-07-24, 10:35

I have to admit, I liked having some of the deaths happen offscreen, as it were. (Thinking of Lupin and Tonks, and how pissed some fans are.) That's how life works. Battles don't stop for everyone to say their goodbyes, gather round, and have a last hearty handshake... people just die, quickly if they're lucky, and usually when you're not there. No big battle to watch, no speeches to listen to, just a belated "OMG, they're *dead*?" and that's all you get.
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mattf
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2007-07-24, 10:40

I liked it generally, but there were a number of editorial cock-ups that jarred. The most obvious one off the top of my head:

Early in the book:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermione
“I’ve also modified my parents’ memories so that they’re convinced they’re really called Wendell and Monica Wilkins, and that their life’s ambition is to move to Australia, which they have now done. That’s to make it more difficult for Voldemort to track them down and interrogate them about me – or you, because unfortunately, I’ve told them quite a bit about you.
A little later in the book:
Quote:
“You’re the boss,” said Ron, sounding profoundly relieved. “But I’ve never down a Memory Charm.”
“Nor have I,” said Hermione, “but I know the theory.”
She took a deep, calming breath, then pointed her wand at Dolohov’s forehead and said, “Obliviate.”
Maybe there was a joke there by Rowling. Perhaps Hermione managed to modify her own memory too!

Also. Percy's return jarred too much. It just seemed too convenient that the first person Percy thought to contact was Aberforth!

Perhaps it's my veggie instincts, but I thought Hedwig's death was totally unnecessary. Everybody else was fair game

But as I say, I generally enjoyed it. Lots of things came together.
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 10:58

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I have to admit, I liked having some of the deaths happen offscreen, as it were. (Thinking of Lupin and Tonks, and how pissed some fans are.) That's how life works. Battles don't stop for everyone to say their goodbyes, gather round, and have a last hearty handshake... people just die, quickly if they're lucky, and usually when you're not there. No big battle to watch, no speeches to listen to, just a belated "OMG, they're *dead*?" and that's all you get.
I completely agree. And I find the fans' reaction to this (and all the "unanswered questions") to be very illuminating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlipkin View Post
but the fact that Rowling wrote it years ago shows. It sounds more like fanfic than the rest of the book. She should have rewritten it no matter how attached she was to the original draft.
Amen. I pointed out the things I liked about the epilogue above, but the change in writing style was jarring. Unfortunately, Rowling is uneditable, given her clout... so no one was really in a position to convince her to do a revision.
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Kickaha
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2007-07-24, 11:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Joe View Post
I completely agree. And I find the fans' reaction to this (and all the "unanswered questions") to be very illuminating.
Agreed. The kids? Well, these are lessons.

But the *adult* fans who want everything handed to them on a silver platter, with all loose ends tied up, all questions answered, and a nice shiny happy ending? Wow.
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Robo
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2007-07-24, 11:57

There's a difference between a happy ending and a satisfying one, Kick.

I'm totally fine with bittersweet endings - or even downright depressing ones, on occasion. In fact, the only thing I hate more than a sugary-sweet ending is an unfulfilling one. What is an ending, if not the resolution of the plot?

I'm not saying all the questions should be answered (because they shouldn't - magic isn't magic if it's a science), but there were definite parts of the plot that just felt ignored to me.

As for the "offscreen" deaths, that might be realistic, but to a certain extent, stories aren't supposed to be realistic. For example, there aren't supposed to be coincidences in fiction - you demonstrated that when you pointed out how the eerily convenient overheard conversation "rang false" to you. Do coincidences like that happen in real life? On occasion - but building a story upon them is considered bad form. Likewise, characters usually don't just die at random in stories - name a serious story where a major character is suddenly struck by lightning at the end and dies. That would be, well, a coincidence, would it not?

There's a difference between a sudden/realistic/"OMG!" death and a hollow one. I'll give you a guess as to which one is usually considered bad form.

Even if you want to applaud Rowling for, um, suddenly deciding to teach kids "how life works," there are three things that I don't think are debatable:

1) The sudden life lesson is inconsistent with the previous six books of the series, where no characters die without good reason;
2) The didacticism gets in the way of what is generally considered good storytelling, as described above; and
3) If she was trying to prove a point, she did it more than enough throughout the book (Moody, Lupin, and Tonks all die "offscreen," Hedwig and George both die incredibly suddenly, etc.). I can understand trying to demonstrate the widespread, often senseless losses of a war, but the when out-of-the-blue, unresolved deaths outnumber ones that actually feel necessary to the plot, the story suffers as a result.

And Harry Potter is, first and foremost, a story. Not a lesson about life. If the final chapters honestly feel like:

P. S. By the way, Lupin dies.

P. P. S. Tonks too. Doesn't life suck?

...that's just bad storytelling, no matter how "realistic" it is.

(Who the hell reads Harry Potter for realism, anyway?)

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 12:07

Can't disagree more, I'm afraid Roboman. No good reason? They died in the cause of war. Not even comparable to the "randomly struck by lightning" example you gave. That would be pointless, I agree.

And important characters do die "off the page" in books... especially war books, conveniently.

As such, I have to disagree on points 1 and 3 in particular, because the context is different in book 7 than it is in the first six books. And I think that Harry Potter is a story that is a lesson about life. And about death.
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torifile
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2007-07-24, 12:15

My quick impression is that I was satisfied with it but annoyed slightly by the writing style: All those damned coloned sentences got to me. It seemed lazy: It felt almost rushed.
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Robo
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2007-07-24, 12:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Joe View Post
Can't disagree more, I'm afraid Roboman. No good reason? They died in the cause of war. Not even comparable to the "randomly struck by lightning" example you gave. That would be pointless, I agree.

And important characters do die "off the page" in books... especially war books, conveniently.

As such, I have to disagree on points 1 and 3 in particular, because the context is different in book 7 than it is in the first six books. And I think that Harry Potter is a story that is a lesson about life. And about death.
1. Hedwig didn't die in the cause of war.

2. Harry Potter isn't a war series - or at least it wasn't until this one. Readers relate to characters in a fantasy story differently than to soldiers in a war story. When you give readers six volumes to grow close to your characters and then kill them off like a random soldier in a war story, readers feel cheated.

3. And I don't deny that Harry Potter contains lessons, but it is, foremost, a story to entertain - not to instruct. Any lessons it contains shouldn't get in the way of the plot.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 12:33

1. Poor Hedwig.

2. I didn't feel cheated. The only negative thing I had to say was that I was pissed at Tonks for leaving her child to be with her husband (she didn't join the battle because of the greater cause - her motivation was to be with Lupin, as her own actions illustrated). That choice left their child parentless.

3. Well, you and I will just have to agree to disagree, then... because I didn't think that the lessons got in the way of the plot -- I thought they were very much the crux of the plot as Harry had to face death, not just in others, but in himself.
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mlipkin
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2007-07-24, 12:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Joe View Post
The only negative thing I had to say was that I was pissed at Tonks for leaving her child to be with her husband (she didn't join the battle because of the greater cause - her motivation was to be with Lupin, as her own actions illustrated). That choice left their child parentless.
You know, I never thought about it that way, but now that you mention it, it does seem to be an egregious error. For the most part Rowling is good with her characterizations (like Lupin being afraid for his child or Sirius's frustration at being pent up) but that just seems careless. After 7 books about Harry's parents and their love for him....
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evan
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2007-07-24, 12:55

I don't think tonks and lupin could have lived with themselves if they had stayed home while others died in their stead. I see their rationale as if you're not willing to fight (and die) for your child's future, there's no point in living anyway.
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alcimedes
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2007-07-24, 12:57

To me I guess that was a major point of the book. Harry was feeling terrible about all these people dying to save him, so he went and tried to sacrifice himself.

The entire book he's trying to stop Volodmort, who in turn is working to build his power base.

Harry actually tried to avoid a war, but everyone else was ready to fight and his plan got away from him.

He planned on going to hogwarts, getting in and then getting out. Everyone else decided to make their stand to give him more time though.

You end up with a huge battle breaking out that your main character worked very hard to avoid. The deaths from that battle were the key in making him decide that sacrificing himself was the right thing to do.

Google is your frenemy.
Caveat Emptor - Latin for tough titty
I tend to interpret things in the way that's most hilarious to me
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Engine Joe
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2007-07-24, 13:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKrzyzewski View Post
I don't think tonks and lupin could have lived with themselves if they had stayed home while others died in their stead. I see their rationale as if you're not willing to fight (and die) for your child's future, there's no point in living anyway.
But Tonks was only concerned with where Lupin was and what he was doing. Her goal at that moment was to be with her husband, not fight for the cause. If I had the book in front of me, I'd point you to the passage in the book that makes this clear, but I'm at work (she's basically distracted and wants to know where he is, then when she finds out, she takes off to be with him... rather than going to where she is actually needed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alc
You end up with a huge battle breaking out that your main character worked very hard to avoid. The deaths from that battle were the key in making him decide that sacrificing himself was the right thing to do.
Exactly. Generally speaking, all the deaths were key to Harry's ultimate decision. I just wish Tonks had shown up (if she was going to at all instead of staying with her child) and acted more like, say, everyone else. Contrast her with Mrs. Weasley, or, more tellingly, Lily Potter.

Last edited by Engine Joe : 2007-07-24 at 13:19.
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Kickaha
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2007-07-24, 13:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
Even if you want to applaud Rowling for, um, suddenly deciding to teach kids "how life works," there are three things that I don't think are debatable:

1) The sudden life lesson is inconsistent with the previous six books of the series, where no characters die without good reason;
Since this seems to be the hinging point on which our views differ, I'll concentrate on it.

I could not disagree with you more. Go back and read the series again, putting your self into the shoes of someone reading it when they're the same age as Harry - they are *littered* with age-appropriate lessons and little slices of life that will ring true with that age. To me, that's the real coup that Rowling has pulled off. The writing? Eh, it's pretty good, but not great by any means. The plotting? She needs help in that sometimes.

But the characters, their actions (good and bad, altruistic, snotty, mopey, rebellious, touching, caring, etc) and their internal states are dead on. Seriously, this is a series I wish I'd had as a kid - it would have taught me a lot more about what was going on in my own head and heart than my environment did.

I don't see this as anything 'sudden' in laying out life lessons, quite the opposite.



That's okay, I saw someone's post today on another site where they said they were livid, because Rowling's message was to blindly trust in your leaders.

I have *NO* idea where the hell she got that from - Dumbledore was finally shown to be very human, and quite flawed, and in the end, his plan *didn't* work. It was Harry, who pieced together the bits about the wandlore, the ordering of events, and his hunches, who saved the day *despite* Dumbledore's plan going awry.

To me, the message was 180deg opposite: realize that even the people you look up to the most, those you trust the most, those you love the most... are human too. They are not perfect, but that doesn't mean that some of them aren't worth trusting. But in the end, trust yourself.
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709
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2007-07-24, 13:38

I haven't read the book yet, but I'm kind of imagining these death reactions to be something like I felt watching that genetically engineered shark movie with Samuel L. Motherfucking Jackson. He got chomped within, like, 30 seconds into the film. I was like, "What the fuck? I have to sit through this whole movie without Samuel L. Motherfucking Jackson?"

Well, maybe it's not exactly the same, but that sucked.

So it goes.
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Wrao
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2007-07-24, 14:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine Joe View Post
(Draco and Potter's bare acknowledgment of each other).
.
For whatever reason this scene has stuck in my mind ever since I read the book. Peculiarly, the way I envision it is very specific and detailed. I can't say the same of all the set-ups in that book, or any book.
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Wrao
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2007-07-24, 14:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattf View Post
I
Early in the book:


A little later in the book:


Maybe there was a joke there by Rowling. Perhaps Hermione managed to modify her own memory too!

Rowling is definitely not above making errors like that. There have been a handful in the course of the series, usually corrected by later printings, and usually having to do with dates. Somehow though, I want to believe that this 'error' was intentional. Largely because it bites of the same type of extremely subtle humor Rowling excels at(which is not to say the subtleness is the sole source of comedy in the series, it's just something she does well).
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Wrao
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2007-07-24, 14:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman View Post
There's a difference between a sudden/realistic/"OMG!" death and a hollow one.
How about a sudden/realistic/OMG death and a Hallow one?
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Kickaha
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2007-07-24, 14:42

That was awful.

Shamerius!
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turbulentfurball
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2007-07-24, 14:44

I've literally just finished reading it. I'm really happy with how it ended. Lots of questions I had in my mind have been answered.

However, I feel a little empty now. I need some serious consoling
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Wrao
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2007-07-24, 14:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
That was awful.

Shamerius!

Accio Go fuck yourself


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PKIDelirium
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2007-07-24, 14:55

That might not have the intended effect....
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Wrao
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2007-07-24, 14:57

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Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
That might not have the intended effect....
Expellidamnit
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turbulentfurball
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2007-07-24, 14:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
Accio Go fuck yourself


Quote:
Originally Posted by PKIDelirium View Post
That might not have the intended effect....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
Expellidamnit


Yeah, I actually lolled at this. Fantastic!
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