[Kickaha]

Courtesy of turtle2472...

I have to do this even though no one has asked my opinion: Are you really sure you want to drive or even ride the bus to hell? Eternity is a really long time to be making that kind of choice. I guess I just have a hard time hearing people who blatantly choose like that. It's one thing to believe different than I do (Christianity), but to say you are choosing the worst fate of all beliefs seems a bit extreme doesn't it? Ok, I'm off my topic, but please at least think about it.

You're assuming that a) Hell is real, b) I believe in Hell.

I don't. Therefore saying I'm driving the bus to Hell is as fanciful in my mind as saying I'm driving the tour bus to watch Prometheus be picked apart by vultures for offending Zeus. They're about as equally likely in my mind.

You're welcome to your beliefs, but understand that I don't subscribe to the mythos, so when I make such comments they are utterly throwaway jokes in my opinion. Thank you for your concern though.

Which makes for a good lead-in so that this thread has some meaning...

What's your belief of the afterlife? Void? Nirvana? Cyclic? Catholic Heaven and Hell? Protestant Heaven? Just Hell? None of the above?

[curiousuburb]

The good news:

• Bus to Hell is always on time to pick you up

The bad news:

• Eight Track is jammed with "Barney the Dinosaur Plays Britney Spears Greatest Hits"
• Sound system is nails-on-blackboard tweeters and MYNAMEISTINA woofers, fixed at 11
• Seats replaced with electrified, rusty barbed wire and insufficient leg room
• Fuzzy dice replaced with smelly, foetid wooly mammoth testicles
• Every misbehaved kid in history repeatedly kicking your chair from behind
• You have to pay for gas at every stop, and no bathroom breaks

[709]

Cyclic. Intelligent electricity and all that.

[curiousuburb]

Damn... thought this thread was going to be "your views on what the bus to hell would be like"

"Your beliefs on the Afterlife" is such a come-down from a great thread title...

I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[BuonRotto]

When you're dead, you're dead. What I don't get is most people's desire for an afterlife. One is more than I can handle as it is.

[onlyafterdark]

People can believe what they want to believe.

I for one, do not believe in the afterlife and will not be going to Hell or Heaven. I plan on living a great life and when its over, its over.

I think Kick summed it up pretty well.

[Kickaha]

Well, notice what most religions promise... a *paradise*. (Of course, they usually ask for unwavering obedience first, and the paradise is a blind IOU...)

I've never bought the Christian heaven/hell system. "One shot, that's it, if you screw up you're burning for eternity, no chance for redemption." <-- Not the sign of a loving God, if you ask me. A wrathful Judaic Old Testament JHVH, sure, but then, I thought the point of Christianity was Christ and the New Testament. Peace, love, redemption. Irreconcilable in my mind. It's like two opposing religions got smushed together to form this freakishly codependent system. "Love me! Fear me! Don't *make* me hurt you! I do it because I *love* you!" We throw people in jail for that kind of crap against their kids.

*ANY*who...

I also have issues with most reincarnation systems, they seem a little too pat. They sidestep the entire soul issue, as well as the mechanism for deciding who comes back as what.

My guess has always been that someone so steeped in the religion will have an expectation of what to come back as, and they direct themselves, rather a placebo effect. Ditto for Christian heaven and hell. Do you *expect* to go to heaven? Then you'll end up there. Do you feel like you should go to hell? Then you'll end up there. Do you think it's just a void? That's what you'll get. 'Eternity' objectively may only last a few seconds during brain death, but to the individual, they'll see precisely what they expect to see as they fade. *shrug*

So what do I expect? No idea. Could be wondrous, could be nothing. I'll find out when I find out.

[709]

Screw that 70 virgins and 70 wives thing....I expect 70 whores and 70 fluffers.

[Wrao]

I don't believe in the afterlife. I do have some inklings about collective conscious or unconscious or sorta-consciousness, and in that regard, I have a kind of abstract opinion that could sorta be construed as an after-life. But, other than that, I certainly don't believe in hell, and I don't believe in heaven either.

There was a startling theory on this that I heard recently that I really dug. I mean, it's a little wishy washy, but at the same time it's pretty fresh and I could get behind it. Essentially, the concept is that, when you die, your brain goes into a sleep state, and given that dreams can FEEL like eternity but really only take place in a couple of seconds. Well, take that and multiply it by a couple of minutes that your brain is still active after your body dies(not really ACTIVE, just like... trace remnants of activity)

So the idea is that, the 'afterlife' is really just a big lucid dream that lasts for what feels like eternity.

What I like about it, is that it correlates with other interesting byproducts of lucid and vivid dreams. Stuff like, Sleep paralysis and hallucinations, where people hallucinate that there is a god or demon or aliens or monster or cat(I have a good story about this) in the room with them, and since they're mostly in a dream state, it becomes frightfully 'real' and then they wake up to tell everyone "GOD VISITED ME LAST NIGHT WTF!?" Then they go on to use that as the basis for their new book

[Kickaha]

Ah, one thing I forgot to add:

If the fundamentalist Christian view of Heaven and endless Hell *is* correct, then I view that God as a cheap huckster and an abusive (and frankly evil) entity against whom it is only ethical and *right* to stand up and oppose, even if the fight is futile.

So either there really is a Heaven and Hell, and God really is that abusive, and I am doing what is ethically and morally right, or there is no Heaven and Hell, and the afterlife is still an open question.

Obviously, I lean to the latter.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by BuonRotto When you're dead, you're dead. What I don't get is most people's desire for an afterlife. One is more than I can handle as it is.

Right, this is the thought that sent me careening down the path to atheism. It started with realizing that hell isn't real(seriously, that's just silly) then logically, neither is heaven. Then it came to just blah, and it was all downhill from there(or uphill, I dunno) the point is, I still think about this stuff, and I like musing on the various concepts and ideas people have for afterlives, but ultimately, when you're dead, you're dead.

[Maciej]

This might not be exactly what you asked for, but in reference to believing vs. not believing: it would appear to be that the most reasonable risk to take is to believe. Simply for the reason that if you believe and it doesn't exist, you don't really lose much (unless you are a fanatical christian), and if you don't believe, and it does exist, that seems to end pretty shitty in the end.


But to answer your question, I do believe - but not for that reason. I guess I simply believe because that is how I was raised.

[.Hack]

EDIT: this was just a badly worded post, didn't sound the way I wanted it to. My new answer is a few replies down.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kickaha If the fundamentalist Christian view of Heaven and endless Hell *is* correct, then I view that God as a cheap huckster and an abusive (and frankly evil) entity against whom it is only ethical and *right* to stand up and oppose, even if the fight is futile.

You would have made a fine Cathar.

[Kickaha]

I think you misread what I meant. I'm not saying that merely expecting to get there will get you there... because I don't believe 'there' exists. What I meant was that one sees what one expects to see in those final few minutes of brain death. If you're Christian, and consider yourself pious, you'll see pearly gates. If you're Christian and inside think of yourself as a horrible person, you'll see fiery pits. If you're not sure where you'd end up, you'll your judgment looming. If you're Hindu and know you've screwed up, you might get the feeling you're coming back as a mouse. If you're an atheist, you'll read the pretty lights as your optic centers shut down as... your optic centers shutting down.

This is completely and utterly disconnected from what a pastor or any other religious figure might be able to tell me... all that will do is tell me what *they* expect to see on the other side.

BTW, some Christian sects *don't* believe in Hell. Christianity sect A != Christianity sect B. I've been very careful to make sure that I don't lump all Christians together, could you do your fellow sects the courtesy of not speaking for them?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by 709 You would have made a fine Cathar.

Thank you!

I always leaned more towards the Gnostics, myself, but I'll take it as a compliment.

Interesting that such groups were systematically slaughtered, no?

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Maciej This might not be exactly what you asked for, but in reference to believing vs. not believing: it would appear to be that the most reasonable risk to take is to believe. Simply for the reason that if you believe and it doesn't exist, you don't really lose much (unless you are a fanatical christian), and if you don't believe, and it does exist, that seems to end pretty shitty in the end.

Ah, Pascal's Wager... I was waiting for this to come up.

Okay, assume that the Bible is spot on. Disregard all the problems with a loving God dooming billions of historical non-believers to Hell just because they were never exposed to the Message, and assume that it is right.

What have I lost? My own eternity. In the grand scheme of things, over the course of humanity, that's not much.

Now assume that it is false.

What have we *as a species* lost? Think of all the human effort then wasted in the pursuit of this falsehood. Think of the incredible suffering at the hands of those proclaiming to do God's work. Think of all the persecution of those who dared to think outside what the Church told them... the early scientists, for instance. Think of the suffering that goes on *today* because self-proclaimed voices of God tell people that simple population control methods (condoms, birth control) are evil; that the infidels must be crushed; that women are nearly subhuman servants of men; etc etc etc.

You'd have to be a completely selfish bastard to choose your own *maybe* eternity over the *definite* evils perpetuated in this world by such a system... and such self-serving greed would be against the teachings of Christ, no?

Wee problem there, IMO.

If one believes in the behavioural precepts of Christianity, then Pascal's Wager is one of the most evil rationalizations ever for the perpetuation of an unknown quantity.

Believe what one wants to believe, but Pascal's Wager as a justification is the height of cowardice and greed in my book. (Not saying this is you, just that those who use it as the basis for "Oh what the hell..." conformance are truly pathetic.)

[micahgartman]

Originally Posted by Wrao but ultimately, when you're dead, you're dead.

I disagree.

The physical body may be lifeless, but the memory of the person survives and becomes a part of our soul.

Need proof? Just take a look at the top of this page...

[Kickaha]

...

Agreed.

Edit: You know, this sent me into a nice little depression, thinking that it's really sad that Jack is gone, and that I miss him...

...which is really the whole point of belief in an afterlife... wishing that the people we care are still there, still a part of our existence somehow, wishing that we will see them again. It gives us a way of throwing our fists up in the air against the universe and insisting that it will eventually end up our way.

As I see it, the need to believe in an afterlife is a lot like the need for graveyards - face it, they aren't for the dead, they are a comfort for the living, and nothing more. The dead have already found out about the afterlife or lack thereof. They have no need for a belief.

Which isn't to say that I think there is nothing afterwards - there might be. I'm perfectly willing to say "I have no clue." Like I said, I'll find out when I find out.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by micahgartman I disagree. The physical body may be lifeless, but the memory of the person survives and becomes a part of our soul. Need proof? Just take a look at the top of this page...

That... is the other theory that I run with. I should reiterate , I have a lot of thoughts on this matter, so nothing I say is REALLY conclusive at all(obviously)

But yes, that's my other primary theory, that the afterlife is less about a personal afterlife and more about how your memory lives on in other people.... etc..etc...etc.

[709]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I always leaned more towards the Gnostics, myself, but I'll take it as a compliment.

It was meant as one.

[Bryson]

Use of the "Hell Bus" metaphor:

It more efficient and funnier than saying "I know this is wrong, but it's funny."
It sometimes offends Christians.

Thats the choice!

[.Hack]

Sorry I missed your point Kick. Here's my short and sweet answer: I believe there's a heaven and a hell. Sorry if my last post aggrivated you as well, I think it was a miscommunication error, I never meant to aggrivate ya. I didn't mean to sound like I was talking for all Christians either, I was speaking in the mindset of "most christians have at least one common view on getting to heaven." I really didn't mean to sound like my point of view was the same as other christians. Yes, that was a bad generalization. Sorreh.

[Hassan i Sabbah]

The Bus to Hell. Oh, I'm on that bus.

[Banana]

Ok.

Here's my pet peeves-

Why do people insist on making a buffet out of religion/mortality/ethics/afterlife?

It irks me when people says to the effect "I like this" as opposed to objectively evaluating religions.

Seriously.

The most basic thing we can see is that reality is independent of our belief. Earth pulls me down at 9.81 m/s^2 whether I have an active belief, no clue or outright disbelief in gravity. If the reality does not give a squat what I believe, it then follows that religion and their corresponding worldview cannot be just made up and enjoyed then discarded. Rather, the reality pretty much will dictate what religion is true or false, just as it tells us that an object in midair must fall toward a bigger object.

Thus, there is no room to go around with half-baked, vague notions of power that be, and much more just simply because that's what your family believed in.

Only religions that is teneable, fasliflable, testable, and objective is worthy of further consideration in my eyes. So to me, the best thing you can do about your spiritual journey is to put it to test, and be prepared to discard those that don't stand up, even if you liked it, and accept what passes, even if you have personal problems with it.

I guess I'm pretty much saying is that our personal feeling or preconceptions has no place in considering religions/worldviews.

[Amadeus]

Originally Posted by 709 Screw that 70 virgins and 70 wives thing....I expect 70 whores and 70 fluffers.

Didn't you hear the most current information, it is actually 70 Virginians.

I'm a Christian and believe in eternal life with Christ. Christ himself descended into hell and on the third day was raised by the father.

[LudwigVan]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I've never bought the Christian heaven/hell system. "One shot, that's it, if you screw up you're burning for eternity, no chance for redemption." <-- Not the sign of a loving God, if you ask me.

Don't forget that Roman Catholicism has an "out": Purgatory.

[oldmacfan]

I would not say that I am a man of organized religon. I was raised Methodist and ultimately decided that yes there is a high power, but not in any church. My higher power is what I want them to be.

I speak to my higher power all the time. There is no name other than "my friend" for my higher power. My higher power is my equal they are there for me all the time and asks nothing of me. My higher power is not man or women. My higher power doesn't have all the answers.

I have at times used the word God in reference to my higher power, but my higher power is not based on any organized or unorganized religon of any sort.

[turtle]

Since this thread was started in my honor then I feel I should at least enter my thoughts:

Heaven and Hell are both real. Jesus Christ is real. He is as real as the love I have for my wife. He is as real as the wind. While not everyone can see those things, they are there none the less. He did in fact come to this Earth and die on a cross to atone for the sins of the people. He was buried in a tomb that was sealed. Verified dead my the soldiers. He spent three days in hell paying the full price for our sins. He rose again on the third day as was witnessed by many. After which he ascended to Heaven.

Evidence That Demands a Verdict by Josh McDowell...Kickaha, check it out. I happen to think you'll really like it.

[Windswept]

I am hesitant to post in this thread.

Especially after just tangling with Luca in another thread.

But, what the heck. This messageboard is a medium of communication. Communication is the whole point of being here. So...

I was raised in a Christian religion and was in parochial schools at ages 5-7, 12-17.

I feel I have paid my dues and that I have a right to the beliefs I now hold.

I have few beliefs, really.

I believe in being a good person, and not harming anyone in any way. I believe in compassion and in helping others when I can.

That's about it.

Pretty simple and uncluttered.

I don't find a need for all the rules and regulations that religions love to impose. What's the point?

I am posting in the computer room of a rec center right now. There's a guy sitting ten feet away who believes I'm into witchcraft because I asked someone his sign one day. He doesn't speak to me, and thinks I am condemned to eternal damnation for asking someone's sign.

If people involved in a religion spend a great part of their time looking down on and condemning others for their beliefs (or lack thereof), I find that highly contradictory to what "being religious" should be.

I think religions should believe in love and caring for others. Otherwise, what's the point?

People who spend a great part of their time condemning others and finding fault seem to be missing the whole point of religion to me.

I am a good person because I like being that way. It feels right and comfortable to me, *not* because *it's the way to heaven*. I don't live in fear of hell, because I can't imagine thinking along those lines.

I suppose I believe in some kind of higher power, but it's not a power that has all kinds of rules and regulations. If anything, it would be a power that is the essence of goodness. Such a power would not include such things as purgatory and hell. They just wouldn't figure into it in any way.

I guess my formative years involved being exposed to a million rules, regulations, and hours spent memorizing catechism answers. I have simply dismissed all that from my life as of no importance. All that matters is that I am a good person and that I always act as one. Seems pretty simple to me.