User Name
Password
AppleNova Forums » AppleOutsider »

Anyone here good with grape vines?


Register Members List Calendar Search FAQ Posting Guidelines
Anyone here good with grape vines?
Thread Tools
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-05, 12:56

Mrs T and I want to grow some grapes. I make wine and we figure why buy juice when we can control all of it. Plus, who doesn't like good grapes off of the vine?

So right now I have two established vines that are large planter based. We still need to build a trellis system for them to get them in the ground. One is Scuppernong and the other Muscadine. I'm looking at the Two Wire Four Cane Kniffin system for the trellis I have yet to build. Before I commit and buy the material and dig holes I figured I'd check with others to see what input there might be out there for this.

I'm in the plant hardiness zone 7a so this is supposed to be a good system for the climate here. The more YouTube videos I watch the more I realize how little I know about growing grapes. Like the pruning I'm supposed to do! What grew the grapes this year will be a cane next year. I had no idea. I'm really astounded at how little I know right now.

Anyway, I figured I'd tap into the collective knowledge here and see what input y'all had for something like this.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-05, 14:48

I have a grapevine my dad planted when I was young and while I have pruned it in prior years it was previously too shady to produce good grapes. I thought that it has developed a disease (as it produces ugly little micro-grapes) but now I realize that I have zero idea what the problem was.


...
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-05, 14:55

The thing I'm learning is that if you want REAL grapes from it you HAVE to prune it back to just about nothing every year. I mean, sure it will produce grapes until it dies, but if you plan to harvest from it you really want to knock it down to the production canes each year in late winter before the spring thaw when the sap starts running.

Watching some of the videos of it you see where there is so little grapevine left before the spring thaw following proper pruning. This is nothing like I've seen in people's backyard on an arbor like setup.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-08, 10:00

Yes, heavy pruning of grape vines during late winter/early spring will provide the best growth and fruiting. Most of what you see in peoples yards are ornamental grape vines, but the practice is similar to keep them looking good. The best results really depend on the weather, if it is really wet when the plant is flowering, you won't get a lot of grapes, since just as any fruit tree, they need pollinators. Putting some perennials or annuals that are highly attractive to pollinators near it will be very helpful (Echinacea, Cat Mint, English Lavender, Salvia, Marigolds, and Zinnia are usually a good bet). Some of those will need deadheading to keep flowering, but if you want grapes, it will be worth it. Luckily grapes hide their flowers under the leaves for the most part (my experience anyway), which means if the bees and other pollinators hide in it on wet days, they might still work on them. Once established in the ground they are extremely aggressive growers, pots really limit what they will produce, and need pruning throughout the growing season if appearance matters at all to you. It's not hard to avoid pruning the fruiting parts of the plants once you know what to look for.
  quote
Anonymous Coward
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-05-08, 17:34

In my experience, the most attractive flowers for bees are borage. An advantage to borage is that although it is not perennial, it reseeds readily.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-08, 20:31

I suppose, if you have space, it is a rather large plant.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-09, 21:23

So I have a REAL advantage right now with this whole grapes in the ground thing... I have beehives literally across the street. Like, less that 100' from where the trellises are built. I'm sure I don't need to put extra flowers near the grapes, but I'll do what I need if I have to.

The poles are in the ground and I have the wire but I'm waiting for the anchor vise to get delivered. Then the wires get pulled across. I'm going to go with the Single-Wire Bilateral Cordon System instead of the Two-Wire 4 Cane Kniffin System. Basically it will produce what I'm after with these Muscadines and will be easy to maintain as well. I'm pulling two wires because I'm going to run a soaker hose on the low wire for watering the ground while allowing me to mow as needed near the vines though we are going to cover the ground with something to limit other growth near the bases of the vines.

That is 40' from end to end with the vines so they will have 10' on either side of the wire to spread.
The one on the left is an Albemarle Muscadine with the one on the right being a Scuppernong Muscadine. The one on the left pollinates the one on the right.




That Scuppernong is ready! I'm not thinking we will get anything really useful from it this year, but it is very possible. This is year three for it, maybe four, but it has been in a large pot until today.


Clearly, I'm going to have to really train and then prune in late winter next year. The Scuppernong is bushy and we just let it do it's thing in the pot. Now that it is in the ground, we can't shape it because we are in the sap running time for it and I don't want to hurt the vine.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-09, 23:38

Interesting setup, I've only ever worked on grape vines on arbors. It will be interesting to see how the wire holds up, since the grape vines do grow very aggressively (I typically prune a clients vine 1-2 times a month from June-September/October for example). First year in the ground shouldn't be too bad though. A few vines aren't very heavy, but when it all adds up, there is some weight to it. Of course I'm used to dealing with 20+ year old vines, so they are well established. Hope all goes well.

The only big advantage of the companion plants is it keeps the pollinators interested in the area, so they notice the grape vine is flowering, that's about it. If the bees are already hanging around, due to say wildflowers near by, it's likely not needed.
  quote
drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-10, 01:00

Dammit. I will have to post photos of my setup for comedic relief.


...
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-10, 08:47

When we were originally looking at building something for the grapes it was more of an arbor type setup. The thing we realized is that is a royal pain to try to harvest something from though!

When looking through the different systems out there that vineyards use we figured out that we are looking for something more like that over an arbor. Then we had to come down to what system was best for our home and grape type. I ended up going back to the one-wire because it is very prevalent and does everything we need while producing a good crop. I found this guy building one and it makes sense. If he can do runs WAY longer than mine and they work, then 40' will easily be supported by this system.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-10, 23:27

Yes, if you were doing to do an arbor, it would have to be custom. We did that for one client, built it over a fence around their pool, not the tall arching type that you might see a clematis, climbing rose, or hydrangea on, that would be too tall. A good wire should work, since as you noted pro growers do it.

  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-11, 08:25

That fence idea looks really cool actually! It clearly needs pruning and looks like the kind of vine "rats nest" I'm used to seeing on grape vines. We are thinking about building a patio/fire pit area and running grapes around it might work well with something like that.

I am totally over the idea of grapes overhead now though. That is just not a good plan if you actually want the grapes from the vine.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-11, 09:41

Yes, it did need more work. That was the last prune in the fall last year, if we don’t leave that much the wind takes what’s left off the arbor and damages the canes, a lot more came out in the spring. Clients always have ideas about how long things should take, so it is never ideal. Working on it is not easy at that height, the top is just over 6ft, and it loves growing into a nearby tree (out of frame).
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-05-11, 09:46

I just now saw/noticed this thread. Pretty cool stuff. My granddad had grapes and tomatoes the entire time I was growing up. I bet I've eaten 40 million little purple grapes from his backyard.

I like that pic above, that fencing around the pool.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-11, 10:10

So for my vines I should look at a fall prune and then late winter or just do late winter given I expect to maintain it every year? I'm expecting to have to prune around March every year as of now.

Yeah, Mrs T wants plenty to fresh stuff out of the ground and I make wine so... We have grapes now too! We have tomatoes and such though we are "in the sticks" and not willing to fence off a section of the yard so we are doing smaller "grape tomatoes" because we lost so many beefsteak tomatoes last year. Bugs and animals just ruined most of the crop. I think we have somewhere near 36 blueberry bushes and 15 various raspberry bushes.

But what there is more!

We also have Currents, Elderberries, Gooseberries, pecan trees, apple trees, peach, pear....

I might just hate cutting my grass going forward.

On the bight side, that set of hives across the street won't have to go far! Mrs T and I even threw the idea out there about us running our own hives.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-11, 10:17

You don’t have to prune in the fall, we mostly do it for appearance sake, nothing hanging down and such. It is better for the plant to remove the dead leaves, reduces the chance of fungal infections from forming on the rotting bits. We have really wet winters, so that’s an issue here.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-13, 20:51

The wire vise came in today and I got the wire strung across. It looks more like a grape trellis now! I really like these anchor vise too. Sure makes getting the wire pulled and be able to tension later a breeze!




The next step was to get the vines on the wires with the goal of them being a single vine up to the top wire there there will be a split and then the two canes that come off of that left and right. This is where they are now after some minor pruning and shaping.
Albemarle:



Scuppernong:



I really want to prune more back to allow all the effort to go up but I'm concerned about pruning more than is safe for the plant. I'm not expecting a big crop this year at all, but I don't know how much I can get away with on the pruning side. We have been staying in the 60's for highs lately but have already hit 80 a couple of times. The Scuppernong is the one I'm most concerned about being able to beat back. It is so bushy and way to many unmanaged shoots on it. For those who know plants, how much can I really get away with shaping this thing so late in spring?

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-05-15, 17:13

I'm so surprised that nobody saw fit to make a Marvin Gaye joke, way early on.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-19, 09:12

So according to this guy (who's family has only been doing grapes since the 1930's) I can prune back pretty hard now! This is great because I feel like I need to so the vine will take the form I want it to take on the trellis.

Guess what I'm going to be doing today after work!

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2021-05-21, 09:50

So based on that video I did some pruning:
Albemarle

Scuppernong


Far less bushy that it was but this should cause it to put all the effort into growing the cordons down the trellis. If I killed these vines then at least it would only cost me $20 per vine and a year of growth. Better than another year because I lose all this year's growth having to beat it back in late winter.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2021-05-21, 14:37

You’ll likely see growth from the nodes that were cut, that would be a typical response for a vine (including grapes). Usually three or more shoots each. It will have more energy for the remaining branches without a doubt.
  quote
Posting Rules Navigation
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Post Reply

Forum Jump
Thread Tools
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Moogs loves Stewart's Grape Soda Moogs AppleOutsider 20 2008-08-21 11:14
"Treatment? Nah, I'm good. Yeah I'm good with prostate cancer, it's all good. Bye." murbot AppleOutsider 40 2007-01-13 05:56
good DVD-R(W) for ppb? davidpark Purchasing Advice 4 2006-01-29 09:46
Is this any good? jonnycherry Purchasing Advice 2 2006-01-11 13:40
We don't know how good we have it... pscates2.0 General Discussion 51 2004-07-23 12:07


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2021, AppleNova