[Kickaha]

Antibody resistance has absolutely nothing to do with vaccine 'resistance' (which is absolutely a horrible term).

Antibody resistance is due to overuse of antibiotics when unneeded causing widespread kill off of many, many species of bacteria and pathogens. (Of course, we all understand that antibiotics are useless against viruses, RIGHT?) Those critters that survive, for whatever reason, are now the *only* critters of their species left standing in the biome that is your body, and they flood the environment to refill that ecological niche in your tissues. You now have a mutation of the original that is slightly resistant to the antibiotic, and more of them will survive next time the antibiotic is administered, leading to a more robust version. Lather, rinse, repeat, you end up with a form of the pathogen that is utterly resistant to that antibiotic.

Antibiotic resistance is due to idiots thinking they need antibiotics for every sniffle.

Vaccine 'resistance' on the other hand, has nothing to do with use, or non-use, of the vaccine. Vaccines did not 'clear the decks' or in any way cause mutations of the virus. They can't. A vaccine does not kill off pathogens, it trains the body to recognize them and kill them off itself. There is no interaction between the vaccine and the pathogen. The vaccine is administered before the body meets the pathogen. Nothing about antibiotics and vaccines are similar.

Vaccine 'resistance' is due to all the idiots out there who decided that locking down was too boring, and caused widespread infection. Every infection is a mass reproduction opportunity for the virus, to the tune of millions or billions of reproduction events. Each reproduction is an opportunity for a mutation to be introduced that makes it worse. Unlike bacteria, viruses cannot reproduce without infection, so there is no mutation, and no strain creation, without infection.

The more infections -> the more reproductions -> the more mutations -> the more strains we have to deal with.

Even asymptomatic infections cause the mutations. This is why all the 'fuck it, I gots a strong immune system!' morons are the reason we're having to deal with this now.

Vaccines train the body against very specific proteins on the exterior of the pathogen. If a pathogen mutates to change those protein structures, it sneaks past the immune system as now unrecognized.

The vaccine is now useless against that strain, and we're back to square one.

Every single strain reducing effectiveness of the vaccines, and stretching the pandemic out by months or years, affecting our health, mental state, economies, and lives... every single strain, was avoidable.

I can honestly say that this year I have gone from a personal philosophy that we need to act as a common society for the common good, to letting evolution weed out the fundamentally stupid and selfish. I truly, honestly, do not care what happens to the people who cannot find it within their brains or hearts to do the obvious. If they die in agony, I'm actually now fine with that. They have earned my eternal disgust and ire that they are causing the deaths of others, and as far as I am concerned, they have no relevance or place in a just and sane society.

My empathy for the terminally stupid and narcissistic is utterly burned out.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by _Ω_ So Operation Warp Speed is now bad?

Not even close to what I referenced. This is an ongoing situation, not every aspect of which has to be viewed through a partisan lens.

Originally Posted by Elysium Po-ta-to... pah-tah-coconut? Non peer reviewed publication aside, yes variants of a virus do have chance to still infect person by evading antibodies with enough changes to the protein spikes that allow them to latch onto cells. However, the long term end game is that T cells trained by the vaccine and original virus can recognize the internal structure of the virus and enact the last line of defense of destroying infected cells before the virus can spread out of control. Peer reviewed research already confirms this.

Originally Posted by PB PM While worrying, this is nothing new and was already known from data coming out of South Africa months ago. That is why Pfizer, and Moderna, are working on a boosters to provide better protection from the South African variant. A booster may be needed with any new variant that comes up, which is why preventing the spread, which leads to more variants, is such a big deal. Just as you need shots for different variants and strains of the flue each year, we may well need COVID shots yearly, too hard to tell yet.

Yes, I know we're working on it. Just pointing out short term roadblocks that are showing up. I didn't link to it, but companies are working on the Covid vaccine in pill form. I think this will also help turn the tide.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Antibody resistance has absolutely nothing to do with vaccine 'resistance' (which is absolutely a horrible term).

Maybe I missed it, but who are you taking about? Who in this thread mentioned vaccine 'resistance'?

I know there's plenty of vaccine hesitancy around, which is a term being used even by public health authorities up here.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Frank777 Maybe I missed it, but who are you taking about? Who in this thread mentioned vaccine 'resistance'?

It's a term I've seen thrown around in other circles (including news articles where simple fact-checking would be assumed) and one you sidled up to here: "Now our bigger problem is wondering if the vaccines have simply served to clear the decks for super-versions of the virus, in the same way our overuse of antibiotics have cleared the way for highly-resistant superbugs." by tying together antibiotic resistance with the (incorrect) hypothesis that vaccines lead to strain production.

You didn't use the term directly, but I hope it's clear what was meant by it.

I know there's plenty of vaccine hesitancy around, which is a term being used even by public health authorities up here.

Aaaaaaaand apparently not. Not even remotely related.

LOL 'Vaccine hesitancy' is one of the all-time great euphemisms, up there with 'economic anxiety'.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Kickaha It's a term I've seen thrown around in other circles (including news articles where simple fact-checking would be assumed) and one you sidled up to here: "Now our bigger problem is wondering if the vaccines have simply served to clear the decks for super-versions of the virus, in the same way our overuse of antibiotics have cleared the way for highly-resistant superbugs." by tying together antibiotic resistance with the (incorrect) hypothesis that vaccines lead to strain production. You didn't use the term directly, but I hope it's clear what was meant by it.

I simply linked to an article showing that our most promising vaccine is coming up short in the fight against the South African variant. Data and clinical study is not something to be feared or discuss only in hushed tones. My post did not advocate any 'resistance' to the vaccine, and I am patiently waiting for my turn to receive it.

Traditionally, vaccines have been about giving people a weakened version of the virus in order to jumpstart the body's ability to fight it. If our attempt to kill COVID-19 could have unwittingly led to more dangerous versions spreading more widely and quickly, I'd think that would be worth discussing. Maybe we go faster with the boosters or adjust our other responses accordingly. But just calling people 'idiots' on the internet isn't likely to help.

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by Frank777 I know there's plenty of vaccine hesitancy around, which is a term being used even by public health authorities up here.

Given the Canadian media's way of talking about the extremely minor issues with the Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine, I don't doubt some people are confused/hesitant to take a vaccine. Of course some only read headlines and not look into to things, it would be easy to be scared if that's the only news you take in. People have about as much to worry about from the AstraZeneca vaccine as they do from taking extra strength Acetaminophen (extended use at full doses could cause kidney failure in some people), but minor issues in the vaccine is made to sound like the world is going to end. Health officials up here are doing their job, looking at all the data, and they get new data all the time. The media takes that 3% and turns it into a death sentence for all who come, all for clicks, the joy of the 24 hour news cycle.

[Kickaha]

Traditionally, vaccines have been about giving people a weakened version of the virus in order to jumpstart the body's ability to fight it. If our attempt to kill COVID-19 could have unwittingly led to more dangerous versions spreading more widely and quickly, I'd think that would be worth discussing.

By weakened you mean inactive. As in deactivated, unable to cause infection or reproduce. (Very few 'live' (attenuated is the term) vaccines still exist, and they are given in select cases only.) They still, in no way, shape or form, can lead to the rise of mutated forms *UNLESS* 1) the production screwed up, and a live version was administered, 2) the amount was enough to cross the critical threshold to create a full blown infection in the recipient, 3) the resulting reproduction just happened to lead to that one critical mutation for creating a more powerful strain, 4) the patient spread it to others.

Very, very, very low chance. Ridiculously low.

That was the entire point of the mRNA vaccines is that there isn't even a deactivated (think 'dead', although the term does not apply to viruses) form of the virus in the mix.

It's even further removed from 'capable of causing a new strain to arise', to the point of impossibility, and no, not worth having a discussion over other than to state why it's an impossibility, and move on.

Maybe we go faster with the boosters or adjust our other responses accordingly.

Or maybe, just maybe, people could have acted like rational human beings and done the obvious from Day 1. Now it's a running battle.

*slow clap* humanity, *slow clap*.

But just calling people 'idiots' on the internet isn't likely to help.

Obviously, neither is trying to educate them, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I'm perfectly happy trying the public shaming route at this point.

If they're idiots, they're idiots. I'm now settled with the idea that some people are simply reality resistant, and I'm ready to move on from the goal of educating them or bringing them along.

[Frank777]

Originally Posted by Kickaha By weakened you mean inactive. As in deactivated, unable to cause infection or reproduce. (Very few 'live' (attenuated is the term) vaccines still exist, and they are given in select cases only.) They still, in no way, shape or form, can lead to the rise of mutated forms *UNLESS* 1) the production screwed up, and a live version was administered, 2) the amount was enough to cross the critical threshold to create a full blown infection in the recipient, 3) the resulting reproduction just happened to lead to that one critical mutation for creating a more powerful strain, 4) the patient spread it to others. Very, very, very low chance. Ridiculously low. That was the entire point of the mRNA vaccines is that there isn't even a deactivated (think 'dead', although the term does not apply to viruses) form of the virus in the mix. It's even further removed from 'capable of causing a new strain to arise', to the point of impossibility, and no, not worth having a discussion over other than to state why it's an impossibility, and move on.

Once again, my post did not state the vaccine was causing the dangerous variants. I mused that in clearing the field of the original virus, only the more dangerous variants are left unhindered and those would then become more widespread, pervasive threats. And so data definitively showing the vaccine does not protect against the SA variant is a significant roadblock to ending this ordeal.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Frank777 data definitively showing the vaccine does not protect against the SA variant is a significant roadblock to ending this ordeal.

It would be, but such conclusive data doesn’t exist at this point.

[Frank777]

Point taken.

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I can honestly say that this year I have gone from a personal philosophy that we need to act as a common society for the common good, to letting evolution weed out the fundamentally stupid and selfish. I truly, honestly, do not care what happens to the people who cannot find it within their brains or hearts to do the obvious. If they die in agony, I'm actually now fine with that. They have earned my eternal disgust and ire that they are causing the deaths of others, and as far as I am concerned, they have no relevance or place in a just and sane society. My empathy for the terminally stupid and narcissistic is utterly burned out.

1) must we reach 75% herd immunity globally?
2) how long could that take to achieve?
3) how will immunization fatigue affect participation?
4) at what point are we left with haves & have nots?
5) won’t natural selection still win out?
6) if so, does that mean that anti-maskers win, even if they die?


...

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by chucker It would be, but such conclusive data doesn’t exist at this point.

I think there is clear data that the SA variant is more adept at getting around present vaccines than the Kent or British variant. It might not mean much practically, since even moderate protection can change the course of the disease, disrupt its transmission, reduce chances of it evolving in long-term sick patients etc.

That said: we're not going to get rid of Covid-19... it will be a bad cold forever and ever with seasonal waves like any other cold or flu virus.

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky That said: we're not going to get rid of Covid-19... it will be a bad cold forever and ever with seasonal waves like any other cold or flu virus.

Knowing this... having known this all along, it's difficult to accept that we're going to continue to have Covid units in hospitals "forever" because that just seems so unfeasible. Of course humanity has always adapted to new things. I'm not the most Orthodox of Covid quarantiners, but I'm darned well close to the top of the class. So, with a year of hiding in the bunker well under my belt, it's tough to take my fully immunized self very far out in the world even as I see photos of a younger, not-quite-fully-vaccinated friend taking selfies with her out of state friends at Disneyworld over the weekend. Forget about the friends for whom Covid never really happened, who will *never* appreciate the sacrifice many of us made in an effort to reduce the spread and dampen the impact on hospitals.

The "returning to the world" conversation is happening among other friends and we all agree that many of us have been mentally injured by our year in quarantine. It's a conversation that I apparently need to have a lot of, to help me understand what I'm facing in the next year.

Also, thanks to all for the perspective on how to interpret the Israeli results as not a failure, exactly.

[Ryan]

Drew said exactly what's been on my mind.

Frankly I've been starting to spiral downwards ever since I hit the one-year mark of quarantine. My alcohol and substance use has gone up dramatically in the last month.

[turtle]

Today I went out to buy a gallon of paint. My contractor needed just one more and I could go get it so he would be done sooner or add another hour+ to his time so he could go get it. I went. I didn't bring a mask.

As I parked and realized it I though "crap guess I need to go back home and get one". I also realized I'm just going to be fine. I'm going to keep my distance from others and avoid anyone making "I'm sick" sounds. Other than the interaction at the counter with a sheet of plexiglass between me and the clerk I was easily more than 9' form everyone around.

I'm so ready to be back to normal. I love my life and I don't feel scared by the lockdown... but just generally walking around is something I've missed and I hate shopping.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by turtle Today I went out to buy a gallon of paint. My contractor needed just one more and I could go get it so he would be done sooner or add another hour+ to his time so he could go get it. I went. I didn't bring a mask. As I parked and realized it I though "crap guess I need to go back home and get one". I also realized I'm just going to be fine. I'm going to keep my distance from others and avoid anyone making "I'm sick" sounds. Other than the interaction at the counter with a sheet of plexiglass between me and the clerk I was easily more than 9' form everyone around. I'm so ready to be back to normal. I love my life and I don't feel scared by the lockdown... but just generally walking around is something I've missed and I hate shopping.

I can't even fathom acting like this, at this point.

1) Even if you're vaccinated, it is unclear whether you can be an unwitting spreader. (Signs point to yes.) Mask protects others, too. I think about others as well.

2) Your state doesn't have a mask requirement? Lovely.

3) This is so far from 'over', it isn't funny, but everyone's acting like it is. (Which is precisely why this is far from over.)

4) Throw a few spare masks in your glove compartment.

[PB PM]

I too chuckle when I hear people saying it will be over and back to normal soon. Until we have long term data on how well the vaccines work, and how affective they are with new varieties that will surely come, all bets of it being over are, nonsense.

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by turtle I'm so ready to be back to normal. I love my life and I don't feel scared by the lockdown... but just generally walking around is something I've missed and I hate shopping.

ONE TIME during last year I found myself ready to pick up a to go order from a Mexican restaurant and realized that I didn't have a mask in the car that I'd taken. I was able to use one of my Mountain Hardwear cold weather caps as a mask (the built in GoreTex liner is not virus stopping level) and between that, the empty restaurant, and the plexiglas I felt terrified that I was still going to catch it but I needed that food (mentally more than nutritionally) and I did it.

But Kick's questions are really important.

Everything you wrote about that trip and the way you think about it is summed up in your final sentence.

YOU are ready to be back to normal.
YOU are not scared by the lockdown.
YOU miss walking around like normal.
YOU felt compelled to shop even though you hate it.

All of these things are centered on YOU.

And this is the same with all of my friends (conservative AND liberal) who are not being careful.

One of my very good friends has crippling FOMA and has been performing with his band during the pandemic in crowded maskless bars.

ALL FIVE of their crew (the band and the sound guy) got Covid the same night at one bar.

I am a highly social person and not being able to be out on the town has been a heavy burden.

But this thing was never about me, it was about protecting my 90 year old mom AND every single vulnerable person who might come into contact with me.

I may never get to be Batman, but by damn I sure fought for my city.


Let's all be as safe as we can.

...

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by PB PM I too chuckle when I hear people saying it will be over and back to normal soon. Until we have long term data on how well the vaccines work, and how affective they are with new varieties that will surely come, all bets of it being over are, nonsense.

The Uk is the grand experiment right now.... but even then, i am wary of leaving my house without a mask, and businesses are taking precautions because they know that if the reopening is reversed because of poor behavior it just means an ever more prolonged lockdown...

[turtle]

It's ok guys. I'll be the whipping boy for all of you. I really don't mind. I'll pretend that I'm bothered if you would prefer?

In the end I'm still keeping my distance as well as doing all the things that you can generally do day to day. Am I going to be an anti-masker? Nope. I'm supportive of them and wear them normally. I'm just not going to stop life because I forgot it one time.

Interestingly enough, I'm sure I'm not the only one who has gone out without one on these forums. I just understand the risks. While I *could* be infected and spread it without knowing, given the specifics of my life that is a near impossibility. I work from home and avoid outside contact. Do I have contractors over to my house or even talk to a delivery person when they come by, yep. Could I theoretically get it from them... yep. Reality though, no.

So feel free to vent about how irresponsible I was for going into a store without a mask one time. I can handle it.

[drewprops]

turtle
Whipping Boy
Formerly Lord of the Rant
Formerly turtle2472


Listen, we're all being frank in here (especially Frank777). Everybody has their cherry-picked version of safe behavior, science, and common sense.

I wish that I could declare that I'm not going to live my life in fear, but that would be a lie. A lady from our church died from Covid. A work colleague was in the hospital for weeks, nearly going on a vent. A traveling nurse I know has had some tough mental struggles from all he's been through - a few months back he found himself cornering an old lady anti-masker in a parking lot to tell her how many bodies he had to put into refrigerated containers in New Jersey.

When mom fell and broke her hip in November I was *terrified* that she had gone into the hospital where she was most likely to catch it. Thank god she didn't need surgery and healed in time to be cautiously walking by her 90th birthday, having passed through the system without catching Covid.

Time will move past fearful bunker folk and the anti-maskers alike, but by damn it's going to be tough to understand the parameters of our new normal and we're going to have to try and understand the people around us to find the new social mean.

Hopefully without being assholes to each other.

Pandemics are hard.

...

[turtle]

At this point in time it is safe to say all of us know someone who has died or suffered horribly from Covid. I am sure we also know a number of people who didn't really suffer but were just a little under-the-weather from it. Covid sucks and I don't wish it on anyone, even those I don't like (like my ex-wife).

Fear really is the point isn't it? I'm not talking being foolhardy but not living in fear is critical to a good life. So you (we) take precautions and we do our part. Was me going in a store without a mask "doing my part", nope. I'm still going to go on with my life and take that chance. I'm not saying everyone needs to let down their guard and have a mask burning party, but we cannot live in fear to the point of paralysis.

I intentionally avoid places of congestion even with masks. Farmer's markets (open air) are common around here and yet we waited until it was almost over before going near booths when there were far less people. Why? We limited our chances of being exposed.

Sure I can limit my exposure to zero percent by having everything delivered and sanitizing everything that comes in. That is not living though. That is surviving. It isn't that bad out there. So what do you do? You find the balance that works for you. Some exposure level is considered safe and that point is up to each of us, within our governments parameters.

My state has cleared the hurdles and opened completely. No masks required by the state level. However we still wear masks nearly 99% of the time when near others. I don't wear a mask in the park, or when I'm pumping gas... but no one is near me either and the wind is a marvelous thing. Inside, or garden center that is open but condensed populous, I will wear a mask.

Basically, I'm not going to live in fear but I'm going to weight the chances. I know I'm clean, I have no idea about anyone outside of my walls though. Those are who I'm concerned about.

[tomoe]

Originally Posted by turtle At this point in time it is safe to say all of us know someone who has died or suffered horribly from Covid. I am sure we also know a number of people who didn't really suffer but were just a little under-the-weather from it. Covid sucks and I don't wish it on anyone, even those I don't like (like my ex-wife). Fear really is the point isn't it? I'm not talking being foolhardy but not living in fear is critical to a good life. So you (we) take precautions and we do our part. Was me going in a store without a mask "doing my part", nope. I'm still going to go on with my life and take that chance. I'm not saying everyone needs to let down their guard and have a mask burning party, but we cannot live in fear to the point of paralysis. I intentionally avoid places of congestion even with masks. Farmer's markets (open air) are common around here and yet we waited until it was almost over before going near booths when there were far less people. Why? We limited our chances of being exposed. Sure I can limit my exposure to zero percent by having everything delivered and sanitizing everything that comes in. That is not living though. That is surviving. It isn't that bad out there. So what do you do? You find the balance that works for you. Some exposure level is considered safe and that point is up to each of us, within our governments parameters. My state has cleared the hurdles and opened completely. No masks required by the state level. However we still wear masks nearly 99% of the time when near others. I don't wear a mask in the park, or when I'm pumping gas... but no one is near me either and the wind is a marvelous thing. Inside, or garden center that is open but condensed populous, I will wear a mask. Basically, I'm not going to live in fear but I'm going to weight the chances. I know I'm clean, I have no idea about anyone outside of my walls though. Those are who I'm concerned about.

This is incredibly selfish and irresponsible, but you do you.

[turtle]

What is so selfish about it, dare I ask?

The 1% of the time I don’t wear a mask? I mean, I do wear a mask when remotely near others. I wash my hands and avoid touching things in public. I avoid putting myself into public places with others. Heck, when my allergies are acting up I stay out of public because I don’t want to have my snot dripping in my mask and everyone thinking I’m infected with Covid.

So what of what is written in my last post is so selfish?

[PB PM]

Originally Posted by turtle What is so selfish about it, dare I ask? The 1% of the time I don’t wear a mask? I mean, I do wear a mask when remotely near others. I wash my hands and avoid touching things in public. I avoid putting myself into public places with others. Heck, when my allergies are acting up I stay out of public because I don’t want to have my snot dripping in my mask and everyone thinking I’m infected with Covid. So what of what is written in my last post is so selfish?

Maybe it was this line that trigger it?

Originally Posted by turtle I know I'm clean, I have no idea about anyone outside of my walls though. Those are who I'm concerned about.

I'm not judging you, because there is no point. I just ask you to consider this, you have no way to know you're clean, because you could be completely asymptomatic and still be a transmitter. I have to remind myself of that too, because sometimes I forget that important detail.

I don't think anyone is asking you to live in fear, I don't. Fearing COVID isn't going to hep us get through this pandemic, but being cautious, thinking of people other than ourselves, and being calm will. I would say for the most part it sounds like you are.

[drewprops]

The notion of assuming that we're not sick is the prime trigger for me as well – because a person just can't know if they're sick if they're an asymptomatic carrier – I mean, it's IN THE NAME!

You realize we're not going to solve this or change anybody's behavior by shaming them, and I certainly don't want to talk down to you T.



...

[chucker]

I think people are overreacting just a tad to what turtle is saying.

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by chucker I think people are overreacting just a tad to what turtle is saying.

I think this comes down to a different sense of politics and individual display of it and how Canada and the US responded very differently than Europe to the virus...

By not wearing a mask and proclaiming that your concern is only for your household, Tony can be construed to fall into the "Trump-tard" category (it's Trump's movement after all). People are responding to that as much as they are responding to what Tony's writing... The US's infection rate is as high as it is because of people who behaved and acted as Tony is...

[drewprops]

Originally Posted by chucker I think people are overreacting just a tad to what turtle is saying.

Indeed. I sure did. The way we talk about safe behavior has been divisive, often unintentionally. People associate the declaration of "I'm not going to live in fear" with people who refuse to wear a mask in public. It's a trigger phrase.


...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky I think this comes down to a different sense of politics and individual display of it and how Canada and the US responded very differently than Europe to the virus...

Did it? France, for example, is currently doing worse than the US in terms of cases per capita.

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky By not wearing a mask and proclaiming that your concern is only for your household, Tony falls into the Trump-tard category (it's Trump's movement after all).

This… really distorts what Turtle said (it's not like he's never wearing a mask), and then proceeds to personally attack him. Good job.

Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky People are responding to that as much as they are responding to what Tony's writing... The US's infection rate is as high as it is because of people who behaved and acted as Tony is...

If everyone in the US wore masks "nearly 99% of the time when near others", I don't think the problem would be as bad. And also, that's hardly US-specific.