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Steve's reality distortion field
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unixguru
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Join Date: Aug 2004
 
2006-01-10, 18:03

I watched a little of Steve's talk today about the new Intel based machines. Be careful of the RDF(R). He compared a single-processor iMac G5 to a dual-core Duo and showed the results of the multiprocessor SPEC benchmarks. He also used the Intel compiler. There have been a lot of questions raised about what the Intel compiler does to create better scores on the SPEC marks. More importantly, nearly all apps will be compiled with GCC 4.0, not ICC. So I doubt the Core Duo iMac is 2-3x faster than the iMacG5. I'm betting it will be more like 1.5x-2x on many things... but when it comes to anything graphics related, it might not be faster at all, especially considering it lacks a dedicated vector unit.

All that said, the machine is dual core now, and that's good. But what about price? These things are the same price as the old ones. Are Intel's processors just as expensive as IBM's? Or is Apple's gross margin going to go up? Now that Apple's machines have the exact same processor and chipset as Dell's, it's much easier to compare the two and see how much more Apple's stuff costs for the same performance as Dell.
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morningstarrising
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Philadelphia, PA
 
2006-01-10, 18:08

Keeping them both at the same price gives people a choice. Those that still want a G5 can get one. Those that want a Dual Core..can get that. Either way, your paying the same, so there isn't any pressure or conflict there.

Of course the G5s will only be there till the supply runs out(Speculation)...Whenever that is only Apple(and IBM) knows..

The real question is what will sell more next quarter...

Jebus Google, just buy Apple already...
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JLL
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
 
2006-01-10, 18:10

Do you expect that a single core machine would cost more than a dual core machine?
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Jerman
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Siloam Springs, AR
 
2006-01-10, 18:23

Well, it's no lie that the 970fx isn't exactly cheap... Wouldn't be surprised if it WAS more, especially if you add in cost of motherboard etc, which I would think costs at least a bit less now now that it has more standard parts.
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Kyros
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Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-01-10, 18:41

Why does everyone think that intel's processors are cheaper? Is there actual numbers to back this up (I mean prices at the quantity Apple would be buying them, not just by the thousand or whatever some people have quoted).
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
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2006-01-10, 18:49

I am very unhappy with what went down today. Apple is demonstrating an unwillingness to give up the exorbitant "Mac tax," but at the same time they're sticking more and more generic hardware into their pretty cases.

Now, the cases are pretty. But that's not worth the expense. The OS itself was partial justification, but the other part of that justification was that Mac users were somehow getting "superior" hardware, at least in theory. PPC is a better architecture than x86, plain and simple. The only reason it's not so good at the moment is because x86 has had trillions of dollars in R&D thrown into it over the decades (yes, decades). If the same money were spent on developing newer, better processor architectures like PPC and others, we'd all have much faster computers right now. So as some have said, PPC was better in theory and x86 was better in practice.

With the new x86 Macs, we're losing that. We don't even get AMD processors. AMD has proven itself to be capable of innovation and competition even within the confines of x86, and even when pitted against the titanic force that is Intel.

But at least everything's cheaper, right? Oh wait. No, it's not any cheaper. We're still paying the Mac tax, but more and more benefits of said tax are being stripped away. Before long, we'll basically be paying hundreds, even thousands of dollars extra for the sole privilege of being allowed to boot into the Mac OS.

It's a disturbing trend. Macs are getting cheaper, but they're not getting any less expensive, and they're not getting any better either. With fewer and fewer benefits to being a Mac user, I have to say that I will not be buying any new Macs. I'll keep the ones I have or possibly replace them with other PPC Macs, but I will definitely not pander to Apple's desires and spend hundreds more just so I can run a particular operating system. Once my current Macs are no longer able to serve me, I'll just start using Linux. Oh well.

Oh, and thanks for calling it the "MacBook Pro" Apple. You've guaranteed that I will NEVER buy one of those, EVER.
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mrkamputee
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Join Date: Sep 2005
 
2006-01-10, 18:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Oh, and thanks for calling it the "MacBook Pro" Apple. You've guaranteed that I will NEVER buy one of those, EVER.
What are you after, a nicely functional piece of technology, or a name? Maybe it was time, the powerbook brand alongside it's "contemporaries" has become an oxymoron of sorts.
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Luca
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2006-01-10, 19:00

Obviously I would rather have a functional piece of technology than a nice name, but as the rest of my post was trying to explain, I don't think the MacBook Pro is an especially great piece of technology. More like a rehash of generic PC crap.

The PowerBook brand name was extremely well recognized and even well-loved. It has been around since Apple started making laptops (not counting the Portable, which wouldn't really fit on the average person's lap anyway). Doing away with the PowerBook name is akin to IBM (now Lenovo) changing the name of the ThinkPad to something much stupider. If I thought the MacBook Pro was a worthwhile piece of technology, I might be more supportive of it, but I can't see myself encouraging Apple by actually spending money for a product called a "MacBook Pro." The very thought makes me feel dirty.

PowerBooks are awesome. MacBooks are not. And I'm not just talking about the names.
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turbulentfurball
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2006-01-10, 19:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by morningstarrising
Keeping them both at the same price gives people a choice.
The intel iMac is more expensive than the G5 on the UK store... £30, which isn't much but it contradicts what Steve said at the presentation
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Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2006-01-10, 19:09

Oh, stop it, Luca. You're making me scared that Apple will start going downhill

But you have some points. As much as I'd like to think that the "MacBook Pro" is merely a stop-gap solution to appease the fans that demanded an Intel Mac at Macworld - as much as I'd like to believe that at Paris Apple will knock our socks off with an all-new Merom-based Powerbook - I can't.

But at the same time, it's hard to imagine Apple without the Powerbook, either...

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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nsousa
Liar. Ignore me.
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2006-01-10, 19:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca

Oh, and thanks for calling it the "MacBook Pro" Apple. You've guaranteed that I will NEVER buy one of those, EVER.
Apple doesn't cater to cheapo-linuxlovers-tech-freaks.
It's all about making money. They could call it the gimme_ur_money_bitch mac pro and it would still be a great machine.

Grow up, dude !
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flail
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2006-01-10, 19:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboman
as much as I'd like to believe that at Paris Apple will knock our socks off with an all-new Merom-based Powerbook
Yeah, it's not gonna happen. MacBook is here to stay. I think it is a surprsing move too, but Steve said he wanted Mac in the name, which I understand. But still, I think PowerBook should have stayed.
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Skaffen
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Join Date: Mar 2005
 
2006-01-10, 19:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
The only reason it's not so good at the moment is because x86 has had trillions of dollars in R&D thrown into it over the decades (yes, decades). If the same money were spent on developing newer, better processor architectures like PPC and others, we'd all have much faster computers right now. So as some have said, PPC was better in theory and x86 was better in practice.
So what's the problem? x86 has had a LOT more research money poured into it and Intel's Israeli department has actually made some very, very good chips. What should Apple do, stick with PPC because it could have been a better chip? The laptop line was going to get absolutely killed this year if they'd stuck with the G4, and there wasn't much progress on a portable G5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
But at least everything's cheaper, right? Oh wait. No, it's not any cheaper. We're still paying the Mac tax, but more and more benefits of said tax are being stripped away. Before long, we'll basically be paying hundreds, even thousands of dollars extra for the sole privilege of being allowed to boot into the Mac OS.
From what I've seen the Intel Core Duo chips are likely to be costing Apple more than they were paying for G4s, and they're certainly getting a lot more processor for their money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Macs are getting cheaper, but they're not getting any less expensive, and they're not getting any better either.
How are they not getting any better? This new laptop is going to be a lot faster than the previous G4s, it's dual core with a much faster FSB. How is that not better? Because it isn't using as *elegant* a chip? So you'd rather pay more, for a slower computer because it's theoretically *better*?

I like using a Mac because of the software, both the OS and the available apps. I like the GUI better and I like the approach better. Isn't that the important distinction?
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trans3062
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Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2006-01-10, 20:56

As bad as I have to say, I agree with you Luca.

I really don't care if they call it "Little Stevie's Typewriter" or whatever.

Quote:
But at least everything's cheaper, right? Oh wait. No, it's not any cheaper. We're still paying the Mac tax, but more and more benefits of said tax are being stripped away. Before long, we'll basically be paying hundreds, even thousands of dollars extra for the sole privilege of being allowed to boot into the Mac OS.
My PowerBook G4 400 has only had to have the keyboard replaced but the Mini we bought has been back to the Columbus Apple store three times in less than a year. Apple had to completely replace the wife's iBook. If you are going to give me eMachine hardware charge me eMachine prices.
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Luca
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Join Date: May 2004
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2006-01-10, 21:21

Skaffen, what I'm getting at is that during the PPC era, Macs at least had an excuse for costing more. Now maybe some people disagreed with that, but at least you could say that part of the reason Macs were so expensive was because they were using more specialized components. Another part of the reason is because of the expected quality of the products Apple made back then.

But what I'm saying is that now, we don't have the first excuse. Once Macs start using Intel processors, the guts become even more generic than they already are. More PC-like. That's not a bad thing, but it removes one of Apple's excuses for charging so much. When Apple's using all the same parts that Toshiba and Sony are using in their notebooks, what reason do they have to charge more than their competitors. Even Apple's overall quality has dipped significantly in recent years, so you can't point to that so much anymore. That leaves the software as the main factor. And while I love the Mac OS and recognize it as being probably the best consumer OS in the world, it's also not worth the full brunt of the Mac Tax. PCs are just so much cheaper for the same things that Apple is essentially charging an extra 50% for pretty cases and a very good OS. To me, it's simply not worth it.
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BuonRotto
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2006-01-10, 21:29

Cost relates more to volume of supply, I doubt that these newfangled duo core Intel chips are cheap/generic. They're not so much generic as they are ubiquitous, but those are two different things really. I don't think it's fair to Intel to think of them as the TJ Maxx of processors. They're not at all. And it's only one part of a whole design, very reductive to put it in those terms.

Still, I'm so not surprised in the least that people are disappointed and fooled themselves into thinking these machines would be much cheaper. Frankly, it was foolish to htink that from day one. but people manage to convince themselves anyway and this is what comes of it.
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jonnycherry
New Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-10, 21:30

Just posted this in another thread but it's more releveant here, macBook pro sounds so bad, why on earth call it that? sure i understand that having "mac" in the name is a bonus but they could have been a bit more creative.

How about this for a product line...

iMac
proMac (instead of powermac)

iMac nano (instead of ibook)
proMac nano (instead of powerbook / macBook pro *shudder*)

iPod
IPod nano

proPod (some kind of uber tablet pda media device)

not sure where to place the mac mini in all that though
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RobM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2006-01-10, 21:30

I can agree with you Luca - we'll see what dirty little Mike offers next month with his versions and see where the prices are. Apples with Dells - yeah i know - but we'll see how he specs them out.
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scratt
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2006-01-10, 21:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Oh, and thanks for calling it the "MacBook Pro" Apple. You've guaranteed that I will NEVER buy one of those, EVER.
I will buy one.. Eventually...

I may pick up an end of line PowerBook first though...

Although I have to admit I am currently developing for the Mac so I may well have to bite the bullet and pick up one of the Intel based machines...

When that happens I will go into the store and look at the salesman and say "I'd like a new Intel Powerbook, please... Model x y z".

I will give him a look that makes it very clear that I want an Intel Powerbook very clearly so that he get's the gist of why I am saying Intel Powerbook.

Assuming he gives me what I want without saying anything else I'll pay and leave the store happy.

If the tries to correct me and mentions the *other* name at any point I will beat the crap out of him until he is dead, and then move on to the next store and try again, until I get what I want...

'Remember, measure life by the moments that take your breath away, not by how many breaths you take'
Extreme Sports Cafe | ESC's blog | scratt's blog | @thescratt
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RobM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2006-01-10, 21:41

"If the tries to correct me and mentions the *other* name at any point I will beat the crap out of him until he is dead, and then move on to the next store and try again, until I get what I want..."

rotflmao
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Skaffen
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Join Date: Mar 2005
 
2006-01-10, 21:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Once Macs start using Intel processors, the guts become even more generic than they already are. More PC-like. That's not a bad thing...
That did appear to be what you're complaining about most though, that the Mac Book Pro is "more generic". I costed some similarly specced machines from Dell and Acer earlier in the day and you are seriously off the mark to say that there's a 50% Apple tax going on. In the end it worked out with the Dell machine being about £30 cheaper, having a larger screen but being twice as thick and a kilo heavier. The Acer worked out about £170 cheaper, but is thicker, heavier and certainly doesn't look as well finished. I'm sure a lot of people would find the weight and size savings worth that much cash alone, let alone taking the Mac OS and iLife etc into the equation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
Even Apple's overall quality has dipped significantly in recent years, so you can't point to that so much anymore.
I don't know, I have a PowerBook 5300 and a new iBook and I certainly know which is a higher quality piece of kit. My fiancee also has a Toshiba laptop that her work gave her and the quality of that isn't a patch on the iBook and they're similarly priced machines (the Toshiba works out around £100 cheaper but is a LOT more bulky).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca
charging an extra 50% for pretty cases and a very good OS. To me, it's simply not worth it.
I think 50% would indeed be pushing it, if that's what they're charging, but from a quick look around it's between 1% and 10% and that's not taking into account things like weight, size and design.
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xyzzy
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Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2006-01-10, 21:44

Let's see, we get 4x the CPU performance, vastly improved display, the next generation of graphics card...for the same price as we were paying for the old model yesterday, and you see that as a negative step? As a fairly large volume PC hardware buyer I can assure you that the new dual core based machines I'm getting quotes on are not cheap either. ALL systems equipped with the latest CPUs command a significant premium for the first leg of their life cycle.

Apple has finally brought their Pro laptop into a range where it's not an embarassment, and it's a good thing. Embrace it.
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naren
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2006-01-10, 21:53

The new name still stinks!
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wyman
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2006-01-10, 21:57

The Acer 8200 (http://news.designtechnica.com/article9232.html) described here is very, very similar to the new Mac notebook introduced today. (As pointed out by Wrao over in a General Discussion thread)

The article states that "pricing starts at $1999," so it does not seem that Apple is overpricing the MacBook Pro at all.
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NaMo4184
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2006-01-10, 21:59

Luca I think its awesome that you aren't drinking the Kool-Aid. Like they say, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

I don't see how people can eat up the Mac tax with out so much as batting an eyelash. I love Mac OS X but if prices are more that 10% of their competitors then I will be switching back to windows.

John Coltrane's 'Giant Steps'
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Dorian Gray
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2006-01-10, 22:00

Luca, no offence, but I've always wondered why you (and certain others on this forum) use Macs. Your aesthetic tastes seem to be a bit at odds with Apple's, you don't place a lot of value on the last one-tenth of an inch that Apple shaved off the MacBook's thickness, you actually think Linux is a usable OS. Why bother with a Mac in the first place? Get a hideous fat piece of grey plastic, complete with mismatched panels, recessed touch-pad, 1 cm rubber feet, shitty keyboard with small key-surfaces and trenches between the keys, blue (blue!!!) LEDs to tell you your computer is switched on, and all the latest and best part numbers, then install a Linux distro of your choice. Why pay what you perceive to be an unwarranted tax for little things like MagSafe?

As for me, the MagSafe feature and 0.1 inch less thickness is why I love Apple products, as well as things such as what I think is an incomparable OS, incomparable industrial design and incomparable user satisfaction. I would pay a £100 premium just for that aluminium case. If you on the other hand attach zero value to the aluminium case, why are you using Apple in the first place? I'm curious!

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyman
The Acer 8200... ...is very, very similar to the new Mac notebook introduced today
Have you gone quite mad? Consider yourself a new member of my "certain others on this forum" class.
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Mac Donald
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Join Date: Dec 2005
 
2006-01-10, 22:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by flail
Yeah, it's not gonna happen. MacBook is here to stay. I think it is a surprsing move too, but Steve said he wanted Mac in the name, which I understand.
If you believe that explanation I have a real nice bridge I can sell you. How much you want to bet that the iBook (which does not have Mac in the name) will retain its name. Dropping the PowerBook name was about Steve killing the last remnant of the era when he was in exile. Luca makes some good points --- with the specs on the current MacBook Pro (God that name sucks ), you could get a PC laptop for 1500 bucks, I think (including the cam in bezel). So, we are paying 500 bucks for the OS and the better looks. Makes you wonder about those who pay the premium for a Vaio -- same price as an Apple but with Windows.

But in the end, I ordered mine today. Guess I am happy paying the premium, and getting taken advantage of.

Someone hacked my signature. I demand an investigation.
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xyzzy
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Join Date: Oct 2005
 
2006-01-10, 22:01

Also check out the Dell M70. It's only a single core Pentium M, but it's the closest they have, so it will have to do for the comparison. The base price for this 15" laptop is $2,520 with 512MB ram, 15" display, 80 HD, etc.

People are worried about being taken now, when Apple was bending you over for third world technology (G4) for the same price? I think you have it backwards. lol
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scratt
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2006-01-10, 22:09

So what will the PowerMac be renamed to?

PowerBook = MacBook (ugh!)

PowerMac = MacMac !?!??!
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FFL
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2006-01-10, 22:21

Luca, I think the polarity of your RDF Filter needs to be reversed.


Seriously, I understand why you are upset at the moment, but I think this new hardware will grow on you eventually.

The performance has increased substantially. The RAM is faster - the video is better - the bus speed is faster - the processor is faster AND it's dual-core. What, besides the lack of it being a proprietary chipset instead of a commodity one, is the problem?

Now, the name "MacBook Pro" I'm not so sure about. I have been in the Mac business since before the first PowerBooks came out, and I've owned a lot of them myself, starting with the 540c which did not have a PowerPC chip. "PowerBook" has been the name for every Mac notebook ever made, and it's sad to see it go.

However, if this is a sacrifice needed to get cutting-edge performance in a notebook, I'm on board 100%.

It is quite gratifying to see the emotion brought out by the name change. What Dell or Sony or Toshiba user has ever given a shit whether their notebook is called an Inspiron or a Satellite....
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