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Jobs: "New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level"
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Wrao
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Join Date: May 2004
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2010-01-31, 15:36

Quote:
- New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level
This kind of worries me. Apple has already suggested that their idea of 'the next level' is consumer electronics and computing appliances. I'd rather they stayed at the same level and just made them better.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2010-01-31, 15:41

How, specifically? In what ways would they suddenly suck if - if - "next level" means what you're saying? What are they going to do - or, rather, undo - to their Macs that would make you worry?

They're certainly not going to "iPad-icize" them, right? I doubt it means touch-anything, and I don't think he's talking in terms of OS or any sort of interface/file system overhauls (or making Macs based on the iPhone OS).

I take it to mean the latest processors and graphics, and perhaps some more aggressive pricing? Push an iMac model down to that $999 neighborhood (we know they can). Maybe that new interface that was being talked about (Light Peak?). Maybe new, redesigned (slightly overdue, as it's been six-and-a-half years with the same case) Mac Pros?

Probably just an annual boilerplate statement. Every year something has to be taken to the "next level", otherwise it'll feel like you're just running in place.

I wouldn't worry about it.
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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2010-01-31, 15:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
This kind of worries me. Apple has already suggested that their idea of 'the next level' is consumer electronics and computing appliances. I'd rather they stayed at the same level and just made them better.
I don't think he meant it in an iPhone way. I think he meant it in a shock n' awe hammertime way.



Speaking of Steve. Is it just me or has he gone into overdrive the last few days here? Seems like he's willing to pick a fight with anyone stupid enough to get in the pit with him.
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
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2010-01-31, 16:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
How, specifically? In what ways would they suddenly suck if - if - "next level" means what you're saying? What are they going to do - or, rather, undo - to their Macs that would make you worry?

They're certainly not going to "iPad-icize" them, right? I doubt it means touch-anything, and I don't think he's talking in terms of OS or any sort of interface/file system overhauls (or making Macs based on the iPhone OS).
I think the general fear is that Mac OS X is (eventually) on the way out in favor of something like iPhone/iPod/iPad's OS model where users are locked into Apple's model of everything. It's about the death of customization, of the freedom to really do what you want with your own devices, and of "tinkering".

See related: Tinkerer's Sunset
Quote:
When DVD Jon was arrested after breaking the CSS encryption algorithm, he was charged with “unauthorized computer trespassing.” That led his lawyers to ask the obvious question, “On whose computer did he trespass?” The prosecutor’s answer: “his own.”

If that doesn’t make your heart skip a beat, you can stop reading now.

When I was growing up, “trespassing” was something you could only do to other people’s computers. But let’s set that aside and come back to it.

...

Now, I am aware that you will be able to develop your own programs for the iPad, the same way you can develop for the iPhone today. Anyone can develop! All you need is a Mac, XCode, an iPhone “simulator,” and $99 for an auto-expiring developer certificate. The “developer certificate” is really a cryptographic key that (temporarily) allows you (slightly) elevated access to... your own computer. And that’s fine — or at least workable — for the developers of today, because they already know that they’re developers. But the developers of tomorrow don’t know it yet. And without the freedom to tinker, some of them never will.

...

And I know, I know, I know you can “jailbreak” your iPhone, (re)gain root access, and run anything that can motherfucking run. And I have no doubt that someone will figure out how to “jailbreak” the iPad, too. But I don’t want to live in a world where you have to break into your own computer before you can start tinkering. And I certainly don’t want to live in a world where tinkering with your own computer is illegal. (DVD Jon was acquitted, by the way. The prosecutor appealed, and he was acquitted again. But who needs the law when you have public key cryptography on your side?)

Once upon a time, Apple made the machines that made me who I am. I became who I am by tinkering. Now it seems they’re doing everything in their power to stop my kids from finding that sense of wonder. Apple has declared war on the tinkerers of the world. With every software update, the previous generation of “jailbreaks” stop working, and people have to find new ways to break into their own computers. There won’t ever be a MacsBug for the iPad. There won’t be a ResEdit, or a Copy ][+ sector editor, or an iPad Peeks & Pokes Chart. And that’s a real loss. Maybe not to you, but to somebody who doesn’t even know it yet.
That last paragraph describes me and I'm sure countless other big-time Mac developers and Mac aficionados, and to a T it describes the same concerns I have about the iPhone/iPod/iPad/future Mac OS X.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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Wrao
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2010-01-31, 16:08

I don't think Apple would ever ditch some level of customization. But what I fear happening is OS X Home edition and OS X Pro edition. Ya know?
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2010-01-31, 16:18

I don't think so, OS X is already pretty locked down compared to Windows and let's not get to far into the thought that all future computing has to be as simple as the iPad. There has never been as many power users as there are today, they will demand power and Apple will supply it or see someone else take their market.

If anything the iPad will be the new "Home OS X", but don't count on seeing it on your MacBook anytime soon.
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Brad
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2010-01-31, 16:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
I don't think Apple would ever ditch some level of customization. But what I fear happening is OS X Home edition and OS X Pro edition. Ya know?
This is exactly the logical path that Apple would be taking given the precedents it is setting with the iPod/iPhone/iPad, and it does actually make sense for Apple to "dumb down" Mac OS X to something more consumer-friendly. I would actually be in support of this, as today's OSes are still way more complicated than they should be for average users. The filesystem? Needs to go away and be abstracted to something using metadata. Application installation? Disk images are a nightmare for novices. Application removal? Drag-to-trash is great, but the user has to clean up preferences and application support files, assuming he even knows about them. These are all problems that the iPhone/iPod/iPad OS has great solutions for.

But then there are the frightening things that the iPhone/iPod/iPad OS brings with it, namely the requirement of using the Apple-approved app store and the locking out of the user from modifying his own device. Apple can't completely enforce this across all Macs because at some level Apple has to allow deeper access for the people who are writing the software. Consumers need not play with the filesystem, but developers do. Consumers need not access the System folder, but developers do.

This is where I expect different "editions" of Mac OS (I hesitate to call it Mac OS "X" because things will be so different) to enter the picture at some not-too-distant future point. You have your consumer-level OS that comes on all devices and then you have your developer-level OS that comes with a contract and fee, like we have today for the iPhone/iPod/iPad development model.

Pessimistic? Maybe, but I don't think it's a far stretch.

edit: Now, I'm not suggesting the iPhone/iPod/iPad OS will literally be transitioned over as the default consumer-level Mac OS but that some evolution between that and what we know today as Mac OS X will be.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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noleli2
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2010-01-31, 17:32

This is also reminiscent of Simple Finder. Last time, it was too restrictive, even for the non-geek, though, IIRC.

As for Flash, I want to see it die as much as anyone, but Apple had better tread carefully, because Adobe has the ultimate ammo: pulling support for the Creative Suite after 10.6. That would kill the Mac.
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PB PM
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2010-01-31, 17:56

Quote:
Originally Posted by noleli2 View Post
This is also reminiscent of Simple Finder. Last time, it was too restrictive, even for the non-geek, though, IIRC.

As for Flash, I want to see it die as much as anyone, but Apple had better tread carefully, because Adobe has the ultimate ammo: pulling support for the Creative Suite after 10.6. That would kill the Mac.
Adobe would be shooting itself in the foot, I doubt they will pull support over flash.
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Chinney
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2010-01-31, 21:58

Adobe must be seeing a future beyond Flash themselves...and my prediction is that they would not pull that sort of stunt.

As for Brad's suggestion, I am not sure that I see the realistic basis for that being Steve's vision. Nightmare, yes. Reality, no.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
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Chinney
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2010-01-31, 22:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinney View Post

As for Brad's suggestion, I am not sure that I see the realistic basis for that being Steve's vision. Nightmare, yes. Reality, no.
On the other hand, a worthwhile read, from another thread, may undermine my point;

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Here's another really good article about all this stuff, and how things might wind up over time. An interesting read, which I agree with for the most part.
  quote
Brad
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2010-02-01, 10:56

Split from Steve Jobs at Apple town hall meeting talks about Google, Adobe, next iPhone, etc..
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Kickaha
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2010-02-01, 11:07

Quote:
With every software update, the previous generation of “jailbreaks” stop working, and people have to find new ways to break into their own computers.
I have to say, this sounds like *EXACTLY* the kind of cat and mouse that led to the strongest tinkering back in the 70s. *This is tinkering!*

What is tinkering if not working around blocks?

Yeah, it may block the script kiddies, but come on - anyone actually interested in continual tinkering is going to *have* to learn more just to do it. Like the old days. The folks I see getting weeded out by this through frustration are the ones that want a simple *programming* experience. There really isn't any such thing. You roll up your sleeves, you dive in with both hands, and you get grease under your nails. Or you go home.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that line amuses the hell out of me in the middle of a worthwhile discussion over an admittedly worrisome trend.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2010-02-01 at 11:23.
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bassplayinMacFiend
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Join Date: Jun 2004
 
2010-02-01, 11:35

The problem is that today, there's the DMCA to stop healthy tinkering if the guy decides to tell his friend about it or show him/her how to do it. The 70s was the era of the Magnusson-Moss Act, where it was codified by law that third party parts could not negate an entire warranty, the warranty could only be negated if the manufacturer could prove the problem was caused by the third party parts. So in the 70s, there was wide recognition of a right to tinker, but today, there's only IP infringement, copy protection cracking and other charges designed to drain a normal person's bank account if the company decides to wage a legal attack against a person.
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Kickaha
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2010-02-01, 11:46

Oh, I agree. The DMCA is an evil piece of law that needs to die in a fire. No doubt about that.

But to have essentially a line that says "They're making hacking haaaaaaaard..." just hit my funnybone.
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Brad
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2010-02-01, 11:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by bassplayinMacFiend View Post
The problem is that today, there's the DMCA to stop healthy tinkering if the guy decides to tell his friend about it or show him/her how to do it. The 70s was the era of the Magnusson-Moss Act, where it was codified by law that third party parts could not negate an entire warranty, the warranty could only be negated if the manufacturer could prove the problem was caused by the third party parts. So in the 70s, there was wide recognition of a right to tinker, but today, there's only IP infringement, copy protection cracking and other charges designed to drain a normal person's bank account if the company decides to wage a legal attack against a person.
This is what worries me, not so much the technical limitations, and is the main reason I quoted Mark Pilgrim's blog post here.
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Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2010-02-01, 11:52

Geeze, thanks BARD, but I'm not that worried.
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2010-02-01, 11:58

With their "vertical integration model," Apple has already made it frustrating and difficult to use anything other than Apple hardware and software at every level. Sure, the experience is great if you use Apple stuff for everything... use an iPod with your iMac, and you had better be using iTunes and QuickTime for all your media needs, and you can take videos with your iPod and display photos, but you had better be using iMovie and iPhoto and nothing else. But if you stray from that model even a little, things get dicey.

My fear is that "the next level" will switch that from "difficult" to "impossible."
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hmurchison
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2010-02-01, 12:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by noleli2 View Post
This is also reminiscent of Simple Finder. Last time, it was too restrictive, even for the non-geek, though, IIRC.

As for Flash, I want to see it die as much as anyone, but Apple had better tread carefully, because Adobe has the ultimate ammo: pulling support for the Creative Suite after 10.6. That would kill the Mac.
LOL. Creative Suite is small potatoes. I could walk down the street and ask 100 random Mac users if they have Creative Suite and 90 something percent would probably tell me no. While Apple sells a lot of Mac with the user intention of doing design with Adobe CS that vertical in no way is the lifeblood of the platform. Mobile devices and SAAS (Mobileme, iwork.com, quattro etc) are going to power Apple profits in the future and the Mac will be the central device that's controlling the whole shebang. We've moved beyond "Macs are good for graphics" a long time ago. Besides Adobe couldn't give up the profits on CS for Mac and they wouldn't want Apple to roll their own anyways.



I'm not really concerned at all about Job's comments or the future of the Mac. Tinkering is fun if you're a computer geek but even that gets a bit old after a while. What's fun to me is this burgeoning platform duopoly. I suppose by next year I'll have the 2010 iPhone, and iPad and a 27" iMac Quad Core and they'll all be in sync regarding data. What's important to me about computing today is my data and how I access it. There will always be ways of making something look beautiful or different but that's auxiliary to my goal of having all my desired information at my fingertips.

omgwtfbbq
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evan
Formerly CoachKrzyzewski
 
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2010-02-01, 12:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
LOL. Creative Suite is small potatoes. I could walk down the street and ask 100 random Mac users if they have Creative Suite and 90 something percent would probably tell me no. While Apple sells a lot of Mac with the user intention of doing design with Adobe CS that vertical in no way is the lifeblood of the platform. Mobile devices and SAAS (Mobileme, iwork.com, quattro etc) are going to power Apple profits in the future and the Mac will be the central device that's controlling the whole shebang. We've moved beyond "Macs are good for graphics" a long time ago. Besides Adobe couldn't give up the profits on CS for Mac and they wouldn't want Apple to roll their own anyways.



I'm not really concerned at all about Job's comments or the future of the Mac. Tinkering is fun if you're a computer geek but even that gets a bit old after a while. What's fun to me is this burgeoning platform duopoly. I suppose by next year I'll have the 2010 iPhone, and iPad and a 27" iMac Quad Core and they'll all be in sync regarding data. What's important to me about computing today is my data and how I access it. There will always be ways of making something look beautiful or different but that's auxiliary to my goal of having all my desired information at my fingertips.
agreed. I could certainly see myself at the beginning of next school year in possession of iPhone, iPad, iMac, with everything having its own role but at the same time working in complete harmony. For any limitations that come up from being tied exclusively to apple (and their "lockdown" tactics), I think it would be worth it for seamless integration between all my systems.
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Luca
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2010-02-01, 12:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
LOL. Creative Suite is small potatoes. I could walk down the street and ask 100 random Mac users if they have Creative Suite and 90 something percent would probably tell me no. While Apple sells a lot of Mac with the user intention of doing design with Adobe CS that vertical in no way is the lifeblood of the platform.
I guess Apple may as well just ditch anyone who wants to use a Mac to do any real work. Are the die-hard Mac + Photoshop people going to hold onto their Macs until they die? Will Apple finally buy into the stereotype that Macs are toys and nothing more?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachKrzyzewski View Post
agreed. I could certainly see myself at the beginning of next school year in possession of iPhone, iPad, iMac, with everything having its own role but at the same time working in complete harmony. For any limitations that come up from being tied exclusively to apple (and their "lockdown" tactics), I think it would be worth it for seamless integration between all my systems.
It's just a question of if you want Apple to control your life or not. If you like the way they control your life, then enjoy. And don't take that the wrong way - I basically let Google control my life. Difference being that Google's products are free.
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BuonRotto
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2010-02-01, 12:52

Getting back to the the original post, I think as long as Apple is in the content creation business, they will offer Macs. I don't see them going away. I do see Macs becoming a kind of back-end to the consumer offerings: create more "pro" content on Macs eventually (though it's worth pointing out that iLife as a consumer product is still only available on the Mac) and that gets passed up to the content consuming devices like the iPad. I don't see Apple abandoning the Mac in that sense, just narrowing its focus over time. That probably means fewer developers for the Mac eventually, which is somewhat worrying. Apple seems to be weakest trying to understand that segment though. So we'll see I guess. Seems like a clear concept to me though without sacrificing the platform.
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hmurchison
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2010-02-01, 13:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
I guess Apple may as well just ditch anyone who wants to use a Mac to do any real work. Are the die-hard Mac + Photoshop people going to hold onto their Macs until they die? Will Apple finally buy into the stereotype that Macs are toys and nothing more?

It's just a question of if you want Apple to control your life or not. If you like the way they control your life, then enjoy. And don't take that the wrong way - I basically let Google control my life. Difference being that Google's products are free.
Yes "free" as in. Come into my house and eat my food after a body search. To some their personal information valuation is "free" mine cost a bit more. I can't demand anything of Google if I'm dining on free meals. I can, however, be reasonably demanding about MobileMe because I'm a paying customer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BuonRotto View Post
Getting back to the the original post, I think as long as Apple is in the content creation business, they will offer Macs. I don't see them going away. I do see Macs becoming a kind of back-end to the consumer offerings: create more "pro" content on Macs eventually (though it's worth pointing out that iLife as a consumer product is still only available on the Mac) and that gets passed up to the content consuming devices like the iPad. I don't see Apple abandoning the Mac in that sense, just narrowing its focus over time. That probably means fewer developers for the Mac eventually, which is somewhat worrying. Apple seems to be weakest trying to understand that segment though. So we'll see I guess. Seems like a clear concept to me though without sacrificing the platform.
I think Apple likes it the way it is.

The iMac is becoming a lifestyle Mac. It's now up to 27" meaning it can function like a small TV yet still manage all the peripherals and ancillary items you need (which Apple hopes includes iPods, iPhones and iPads)

The Mac Pro will continue to be the Power Users Mac and I see no reason for Apple to sell their Pro apps off. Those of us who wish to run Final Cut Studio, Aperture and Logic Pro will continue to pine for a high end iMac and Mac Pro.

Next step will likely be an update to the Apple TV with either an A4 or another PA Semi designed variant.

omgwtfbbq
  quote
psmith2.0
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2010-02-01, 13:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
I guess Apple may as well just ditch anyone who wants to use a Mac to do any real work. Are the die-hard Mac + Photoshop people going to hold onto their Macs until they die? Will Apple finally buy into the stereotype that Macs are toys and nothing more?
But do you really see that happening anytime soon? Seriously?

Macs, as we know them, will be around for a good while. We know this. And all this handwringing and worrying about "the future" just seems a bit...odd.



Get a grip, folks. You'll be able to buy a kick-ass iMac or MacBook in 2015, to run Adobe CS 7 on.

I think everyone has applied their own personal "nightmare scenario" to something Steve never even said. You're looking through the iPad prism and applying it everywhere, whether it makes sense or not.

Apple isn't going to shoot themselves in the nuts like this. But who's to say both things can't happen? Why can't Apple make a big move to appeal to the non-geek, consumer/grandpa 'n' aunt crowd (they certainly outnumber the geeks and tinkerers) while still maintaining their diehard, flagship OS and Mac lines? Who says it has to be "either/or"? They know where their bread is buttered. Actually, they're luckier than most companies because they get it buttered from two distinct, separate user bases. The "halo" users, brought into the fold via iTunes, iPod, iPhone, their first Mac, etc. and then the rest of us who've got a good decade or so in, have owned numerous Macs, hang out a crazy places like this and argue about Flash and "Avatar", etc.



I see that as a good thing. Apple is standing on two very strong legs.

Man, Apple releases a true "computer for the rest of 'em" and everyone else feels threatened/left out and poops their pants in a blind panic about The Future™. At least that's how it kinda comes across. Sorta.


Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2010-02-01 at 13:37.
  quote
Kickaha
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2010-02-01, 13:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Apple isn't going to shoot themselves in the nuts like this. But who's to say both things can't happen? Why can't Apple make a big move to appeal to the non-geek, consumer/grandpa 'n' aunt crowd (they certainly outnumber the geeks and tinkerers) while still maintaining their diehard, flagship OS and Mac lines? Who says it has to be "either/or"? They know where their bread is buttered. Actually, they're luckier than most companies because they get it buttered from two distinct, separate user bases. The "halo" users, brought into the fold via iTunes, iPod, iPhone, their first Mac, etc. and then the rest of us who've got a good decade or so in, have owned numerous Macs, hang out a crazy places like this and argue about Flash and "Avatar", etc.



I see that as a good thing. Apple is standing on two very strong legs.
BING BING BING

I think this is the first sign of a huge schism - prosumer OS/machines for the geeks (Windows, Mac, Linux), and consumer OS/machines for everyone else (iPad, iPhone, er... anyone else?). Each will have its own ecosystem, but they'll be related - the prosumer feeding the consumer, whether through apps or media.

There's no reason Apple won't do both, and obviously, it's in their own best interests to do both. The fact that they have a single unified code base underneath is just GOLD.

Quote:
Man, Apple releases a true "computer for the rest of 'em" and everyone else feels threatened/left out and poops their pants in a blind panic about The Future™. At least that's how it kinda comes across. Sorta.
SORTA?!? Man, I haven't seen this much insecurity in geeks since a high school locker room.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
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2010-02-01, 13:55

This thread just feels like a total non sequitur to me. Jobs make his requisite "this year is gonna be rad!" comment, and suddenly it's the end of the Mac as we know it? Huh?

I'm with pscates. Macs aren't going anywhere. We'll just all have iPads too.
  quote
Banana
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2010-02-01, 14:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
SORTA?!? Man, I haven't seen this much insecurity in geeks since a high school locker room.
Nobody likes their skills being commoditized, I guess.

It used to be that a tinkerer was someone who could hardwire few wires with registers and wield a soldering iron.
It then happened that the tinkerer was now someone who could twiddle bits.
Not too long after, it was the tinkerer who can write "mov [rax],[rex] cmp [rax], [rix+80dh], je 0x00001234" and knew what it meant.
Then it was inevident that the tinkerer was someone who could write a networking protocol in ANSI C.
By and by, tinkerer was now someone who could drag'n'drop a control into a pretty GUI and build an application in months.

And so on....

But who's the real tinkerer here? Thus the kiddie scripts are threatened because they're now irrelevant. Little they knew they were only relevant because of necessity. No wonder they have their panties in a bunch.
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zippy
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2010-02-01, 14:49

Regardless what these new Macs for 2010 are going to be... I just ordered a refurb 13" MBP for $999.

Woot.
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Kickaha
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2010-02-01, 14:57

Nice! I'm in the market for one myself.
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Brad
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2010-02-01, 15:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
I think this is the first sign of a huge schism - prosumer OS/machines for the geeks (Windows, Mac, Linux), and consumer OS/machines for everyone else (iPad, iPhone, er... anyone else?). Each will have its own ecosystem, but they'll be related - the prosumer feeding the consumer, whether through apps or media.

There's no reason Apple won't do both, and obviously, it's in their own best interests to do both. The fact that they have a single unified code base underneath is just GOLD.
This is exactly what I meant with my suggestion of separate developer-level Mac OS and consumer-level Mac OS. It makes a lot of sense, really, but I just hope that Apple stays sane and doesn't decide to charge extra for the developer-level edition, like they have started doing for iPod/iPhone/iPad development tools.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
SORTA?!? Man, I haven't seen this much insecurity in geeks since a high school locker room.
My iPad is bigger than your i... wait that just isn't right.

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