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Iago
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
 
2011-09-03, 15:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Like?
I'm not convinced you can argue that Android has fewer benefits than Kindle OS. But if you'd like to be my guest

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
(And where did I ever suggest that non-geeks wanted features?)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo
Do non-geeks genuinely want Android? If they do, I'm not seeing it.
Non-geeks don't think in terms of iOS or Android. They think in terms of cost and benefits. That's it.

I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
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2011-09-03, 16:04

I know a few non-geeks that do care about what OS they use, and many consumers are aware of the two at this point.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-09-03, 16:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iago View Post
I'm not convinced you can argue that Android has fewer benefits than Kindle OS. But if you'd like to be my guest
I don't have to argue anything. You're the one who made the statement ("Kindle's OS vs. Android's OS: Android has more benefits."); I just don't have any idea how you could, considering we've seen literally nothing of the so-called Kindle OS.

If you want to be taken seriously, it's your job to back up your statements. It's not my job to somehow go to the future and disprove them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iago
Non-geeks don't think in terms of iOS or Android. They think in terms of cost and benefits. That's it.
I don't think "knowing that the iPhone has [insert app here] that Android doesn't" requires a degree in geek.

Trying an Android device, finding it difficult to use, then trying an iPhone and finding it easier to use also doesn't require geekdom.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2011-09-03, 16:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I don't have to argue anything. You're the one who made the statement ("Kindle's OS vs. Android's OS: Android has more benefits."); I just don't have any idea how you could, considering we've seen literally nothing of the so-called Kindle OS.
I think he's comparing Google Android* with the current Kindles' OS, not with that of a hypothetical Kindle tablet.

That said, earlier posts of his seemed to suggests he sees benefits of Android over iOS, and I'm curious about those. Openness doesn't count.

*) I.e., Android with Google apps, including the Marketplace.
  quote
Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2011-09-03, 17:39

I have very little faith in Amazon's ability to design a tablet interface. Just look at their search filtering, it's still completely useless for items in very narrow subsets. Sorting by lowest price STILL doesn't work the way it should...
  quote
Iago
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
 
2011-09-03, 18:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I don't have to argue anything. You're the one who made the statement ("Kindle's OS vs. Android's OS: Android has more benefits."); I just don't have any idea how you could, considering we've seen literally nothing of the so-called Kindle OS.
Kindle's OS lets you read a dozen or so file formats. It has a 3G driver. There's a ropey-as-fuck web browser. That's about it.

The Kindle tablet will have an OS based on Android ~2.2. It's an entirely different category of OS. There's plenty in the open about Android 2.2 and at least one article covering Amazon's implementation of it.

So, yeah. A Kindle based on Android will have a shitload of benefits that put it into a different league to the Kindle, especially if, as you and I both suspect, they market it as the latest Kindle.

I take your point that some users might just pick Android because it's on a lot of devices at the moment. It really isn't a convincing argument when you stack up sales of Android devices, though. How many million units per month have they sold? You really think a majority of those sales are made of geeks, people who just don't want an Apple device, and people who like the phone for something other than the OS?

Plenty of people will just be given a really great demo of the hardware / software, and like it. They like the benefits of a device running Android, not the feature of a device which runs Android. Most of them probably won't know it's running Android. They'll just like the fact that they can do xyz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I think he's comparing Google Android* with the current Kindles' OS, not with that of a hypothetical Kindle tablet.
Bingo. Although, we do know a little about the Kindle tablet's OS, and it's not really a huge leap to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
That said, earlier posts of his seemed to suggests he sees benefits of Android over iOS, and I'm curious about those. Openness doesn't count.
There are plenty. I'm an iOS user, but Android and iOS both have differentiating features, which in turn mean differentiating benefits for some users.

I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea.
  quote
Robo
Formerly Roboman, still
awesome
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
 
2011-09-04, 02:05

Wait, why are we talking about the black and white Kindle's "OS" in a thread about the Amazon Tablet? It's such a non sequitur that I thought you were talking about Google Android OS vs. Amazon's Forked Tablet OS. It's like saying, in an iPod touch thread, "Android provides more benefits than the iPod's OS" and then assuming everyone will know you're talking about the iPod classic, obviously.

I agree that the Amazon Forked Tablet OS will be better than the current black and white Kindle's firmware. Is that your point? OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iago
Plenty of people will just be given a really great demo of the hardware / software, and like it.
European mobile retail must really be lightyears ahead of the US if salespeople are giving "really great demos" in the shops, but I digress.

Quote:
They like the benefits of a device running Android, not the feature of a device which runs Android.
I think people who "choose" Android are sold on the benefits of a smartphone, or even simply a touchscreen feature phone; not benefits that are exclusive to Android in any way (except, for now, low price). They want the cheapest phone with a touch screen or a web browser. I guess you could say (in the US) that anyone who wants "cheap touchphone" counts as wanting Android, since Symbian and bada are nonexistant here, but I don't think those people want Android in a way that makes them loyal, or worth anything to developers. Case in point: I know people who have "upgraded" their Android phones to iPhones, Windows Phones, and even BlackBerries, but I only know two people who have replaced their initial Android phones with a second, and those were the two supergeeks I mentioned earlier.

Everybody else abandoned ship.

Android is young yet, and most non-geeks are still on their first smartphone (if they have one), but I don't see any reason to believe that this exodus will change in the future. I'm actually seeing a consistent pattern of people buying Android devices as essentially touchscreen feature phones, and then, when they later begin to want apps, switching to another platform (usually iOS). They don't view Android as a software platform that they should (or even could) stick with. It's almost like there are two Androids: the "app market? what app market?" feature phone that most people are buying, and the software platform that geeks like to believe that most people are buying into.

Nokia says they're going to compete with low-end Android sets on price with Windows Phone (and for all their software struggles, Nokia has been very good at competing at price). BlackBerry is coming out with a cheap all-touchscreen Curve. Samsung could start selling bada in more markets. And of course, Apple could stick a radio in an iPod touch whenever they feel like it. What I'm saying is, Android isn't always going to be the only cheap touch OS, and if non-geeks aren't choosing Android based on its unique Android qualities, there's no reason to assume that Android will remain dominant in this part of the market.

Can you honestly say that the target market for, say, the Samsung Dart (Galaxy Mini for Europeans) wouldn't buy it if it was the exact same phone running bada? No? Then I don't think that counts as being sold on the benefits of Android. (I think much of the target market might be talked out of it by the geeky salesperson who insists that you just "gotta have an Android," but I don't think that has anything to do with bada not meeting that person's wants and needs.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iago View Post
How many million units per month have they sold? You really think a majority of those sales are made of geeks, people who just don't want an Apple device, and people who like the phone for something other than the OS?
I spent five paragraphs in my first post in this thread outlining who I thought was buying Android devices. I explicitly said that I thought very few of Android device sales are made of geeks. o_O

I think most people who "choose" Android choose it because it's cheap and available, not because they like or want it or its software. The combined advertising barrage of all the Android makes probably wins them some sales via brute force, too, but I don't think any of the ads we've seen have been particularly effective at reaching non-geeks. They're certainly not effective at making them want Android or the Android Market and not simply the phone that's being advertised, it has a cool name and there's fighter jets, yeah let's go with that one. (The exceptions are the Droid ads, which just confuse people.)

If Android were to be declared illegal and vanish overnight, would non-geeks care? I really don't think they would, as long as they could still get free touch phones running something.

I'm sure we disagree on this, but I can't think of a single benefit that a significant number of non-geeks will choose Android for over a comparatively priced iPhone or Windows Phone 7.5 device. I really can't. Virtually everyone I've met considers Android more difficult to use, the app market is still a mess, and updates are a crapshoot. It's just worse, and its "strengths" — being "open" and free to handset providers, giving Verizon a cut out of app sales — have nothing to do with the end consumer, unless they're a geeky tinkerer. It's okay to be worse when you're cheaper. You can get away with not giving people a real reason to choose your OS when you're virtually the only OS in the category. But by all indications, that's not going to last forever. Google's going to have to give non-geeks reasons to want Android, specifically, that have nothing to do with price. Maybe they'll succeed, but that's a completely different game then what they've been playing so far, so I see no reason to assume they will.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
  quote
Jason
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
 
2011-09-04, 08:09

In Japan, Android phones are being marketed using some five-minute-wonder boy band. Android ads and iPhone ads here are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
  quote
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