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Kaby Lake MacBooks at WWDC


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Kaby Lake MacBooks at WWDC
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chucker
 
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2017-05-16, 16:39

Interesting.

Hopefully true. Would be a good signal right now. (I'd much rather they update the Mac mini, but can't have everything.)

MacBook Pro: AIUI, Kaby Lake doesn't make a RAM increase any more plausible, so this revision would mostly be about better battery life.

MacBook: same. GPU improvements, I guess. Otherwise fairly boring.

MacBook Air: uh. That one's weird. I guess we'll have to wait longer for the MB and MBP to move downmarket enough to kill of the Air?
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turtle
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2017-05-16, 22:56

Well wouldn't it be interesting if they release an updated MBP. I won't mind since I really did need mine when I got it, but I can't say I was expecting them to change it at all.

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kscherer
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2017-05-17, 09:28

It's an interesting rumor. Considering all models are plentiful in distribution, I don't fully buy it. Apple is already under fire over the latest Pro releases, and this may cause some unwanted scorn and negative publicity.

Apple has done 6-month updates before, so I won't be surprised. Just seems like odd timing, and maybe a bit forced, like they would do this because the media is on their backs or something. It won't do much for sales, either.

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chucker
 
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2017-05-17, 11:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Apple has done 6-month updates before, so I won't be surprised.
Craziest I can think of is when they launched the iMac with iSight in October 2006 (anyone remember Front Row?), then the much faster (two cores!) Intel-based iMac in January 2006.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Just seems like odd timing, and maybe a bit forced, like they would do this because the media is on their backs or something. It won't do much for sales, either.
Sales, no. Actual specs, not either (Kaby Lake mostly isn't that interesting — the performance gains it has are pretty much because Intel increased the clock speeds, not because of actual efficiency improvements).

Reputation? Maybe. And hey, it would be eight months, not six.

Maybe it depends a little on whether they're able to ship a Coffee Lake or Cannonlake (this is getting confusing)-based MBP this year.
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kscherer
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2017-05-17, 11:45

I've given up trying to sort out which Lake we're sailing on.

There was a period between early 2006 and 2009 that Apple was releasing new iMacs about every 9 months.

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Dave
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2017-05-17, 11:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Actual specs, not either (Kaby Lake mostly isn't that interesting — the performance gains it has are pretty much because Intel increased the clock speeds, not because of actual efficiency improvements).
AMD's refreshed their GPUs, too (although, much like with Kaby Lake vs Skylake, there doesn't appear to be a ton of difference). IIRC, one thing that Kaby Lake does do differently is support more than 16 GB of low-power RAM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Maybe it depends a little on whether they're able to ship a Coffee Lake or Cannonlake (this is getting confusing)-based MBP this year.
Especially since Intel keeps bunching up the release schedules. I think those two arches are almost coming out on top of each other now. Are they both even "full" lineups? Somewhere along the line I got the impression that one of them was essentially the mobile version of the other, but I'm not sure that's correct.

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Frank777
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2017-05-17, 14:42

I don't buy the idea that the MacBook Pros are being upgraded already. It's too soon. But the MacBooks are in desperate need of an upgrade.

It's clear now that all anybody wanted was a MacBook Air with a Retina screen. And the 12" is looked at by most people as too small for 'real' work. Which is why the Air continues to sell, even with completely outdated internals. I think the 12" moves to USD$999., and Apple intros a new USD$1299. consumer 13" line with two USB 3.1/TB3 ports (and no Touch Bar.) Air goes away completely.

As such, Apple will have two laptop lines (MacBook/MacBook Pro) and two desktop lines (iMac, Mac Pro.)

Mac Mini users will continue to be unloved and largely forgotten, but they're accustomed to that by now.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-17, 15:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
AMD's refreshed their GPUs, too (although, much like with Kaby Lake vs Skylake, there doesn't appear to be a ton of difference). IIRC, one thing that Kaby Lake does do differently is support more than 16 GB of low-power RAM.
AIUI, more than 16 GB won't happen until Coffee Lake. Or Cannonlake. Whatevs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
Especially since Intel keeps bunching up the release schedules. I think those two arches are almost coming out on top of each other now. Are they both even "full" lineups? Somewhere along the line I got the impression that one of them was essentially the mobile version of the other, but I'm not sure that's correct.
Yeah. Both the release schedule and the distinction seem in flux. They seem to have been moved (because of Ryzen?) to both ship the latter half this year. I think Coffee Lake was originally inserted as a stop-gap release until they can ship Cannonlake, and now Cannonlake will ship early enough as well.
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PB PM
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2017-05-17, 18:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Craziest I can think of is when they launched the iMac with iSight in October 2006 (anyone remember Front Row?), then the much faster (two cores!) Intel-based iMac in January 2006.
Yeah that was a short cycle, it was nice to dump those old slow PPC processsors, although we did take a battery life hit on notebooks for a few years till the 64bit C2D systems appeared.

Loved Front Row, one of the strangest, come and go things from Apple. I even used hacks to put FR on machines it wasn't 'compatible' with.
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kieran
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2017-05-17, 21:42

I did the same. Had it running on an iMac G4 for a while. I thought it was awesome.

Still love the design.
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Frank777
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2017-05-17, 21:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Loved Front Row, one of the strangest, come and go things from Apple.
I know people are saying that it's becoming much more useful, but to me, the Touch Bar looks like a 'Front Row' kind of feature from Apple.

Something they put out there just because the winds seemed to be blowing in that general direction.
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Dave
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2017-05-17, 23:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
I know people are saying that it's becoming much more useful, but to me, the Touch Bar looks like a 'Front Row' kind of feature from Apple.

Something they put out there just because the winds seemed to be blowing in that general direction.
Yeah... It did seem like a bit of a "let's see if this sticks" sort of move... I really wish they'd done it in *addition* to the esc/f-keys, though, because now those models won't have an esc key without special OS support. I suppose that's not such a big deal for Apple, but it makes it that much harder to run other OSs.

When I was a kid, people who did wrong were punished, restricted, and forbidden. Now, when someone does wrong, all of the rest of us are punished, restricted, and forbidden... and the one who did the wrong is counselled and "understood" and fed ice cream.
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PB PM
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2017-05-17, 23:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
I know people are saying that it's becoming much more useful, but to me, the Touch Bar looks like a 'Front Row' kind of feature from Apple.

Something they put out there just because the winds seemed to be blowing in that general direction.
I played with the touch bar for the first time a few weeks ago in the Apple Store, it is kind of nice actually. I wouldn't pay a premium for it though, it's not that good.

Front Row on the other hand was Apple's answer to Windows Media Center, and it was much nicer, IMO. Of course Windows Media Center isn't around anymore either, so I guess you cannot say that just Apple botched that one. IIRC Front Row died shortly after the Apple TV hit the market, but before that a lot of people, like I still do, used a Mac Mini as a media hub.
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Robo
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2017-05-23, 02:16

There was a rumor that Apple was trying to engineer a 12-inch-MacBook-style custom terraced battery structure for the new Pros, but couldn't get it done in time, hence the disappointing battery life. Hopefully it's ready now.

The 12-inch MacBook could also get better battery life, not due to the battery getting smaller, but due to Apple not having to overclock the CPUs. At the standard 4.5v the m3 in the base model runs at 900 MHz, but Apple upvolts it and clocks it at 1.1 GHz. The Kaby Lake m3 is 1.1 GHz at the standard 4.5v, and if Apple makes the Y-series i5 standard (which I think they might*, fingers crossed) it's 1.2 GHz at the base clock. A somewhat faster CPU, better graphics, Thunderbolt 3, a 16GB RAM option, more battery life (maybe up to 12 hours, like the MacBook Air?), and a few other quality-of-life tweaks (maybe *gasp* an HD webcam?) would make for a solid update, even without a shiny new color. Though we could always see that too.

*) With Kaby Lake, Intel changed the name of some of their 4.5w ultra-ultra-low-voltage Y-Series processors to i5 and i7 instead of m5 and m7. (Oddly, they're keeping the lower-end models as "m3.") They say they did that due to vendor demand, and I think Apple's the only vendor that would be so influential to them. I'm sure Apple knows the 12-inch MacBook has the reputation of being underpowered, and maybe saying it comes with i5s and i7s will help, even if they're the same ultra-ultra-low-voltage parts.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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chucker
 
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2017-05-23, 16:45

I'm guessing they wouldn't want to bring the MacBook to 16 GB until they can bring the MBP to something beyond that.

Also, Intel's site is still useless as ever:

Quote:
Max Memory Size (dependent on memory type)
16 GB
Memory Types
LPDDR3-1866, DDR3L-1600
Great — now given a certain memory type, just what is the max memory?
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PB PM
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2017-05-23, 20:03

Why on earth are these modern notebook chipsets still using DDR3 memory? I thought Kaby Lake required DDR4. I guess that's only for desktops.
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Robo
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2017-05-24, 00:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
I'm guessing they wouldn't want to bring the MacBook to 16 GB until they can bring the MBP to something beyond that.
Well, they could always make 16GB standard on the Pro. *wishful thinking*
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chucker
 
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2017-05-24, 05:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Well, they could always make 16GB standard on the Pro. *wishful thinking*
Oh, I didn't even realize the 13-inchers still start at 8 GB.

In any case, this will hopefully all change once 32 GB DDR4L becomes an option.
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Robo
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2017-05-24, 10:27

Apple's in this weird spot right now where they offer three very different computers, all called MacBook Pro. Of these, the "MacBook Pro without Touch Bar" is the hardest to describe; it's weird to define a product by something it lacks, which is why officially it's the "MacBook Pro (Two ThunderBolt 3 Ports)", but even that is kind of doing the same thing, just in nicer terms. I think coming up with weird euphemisms like that is a symptom of bad branding.

Perhaps to Apple's chagrin, the Touch Bar isn't even that big of a deal (yet); the main reason to get the Pro with Touch Bar is the way faster hardware, so having the nomenclature for the models (official or otherwise) revolve around their Touch-Bar-ness is odd. And by Apple's own admission, the 13-inch Pro-Without-Touch-Bar isn't even really a "pro" machine at all; it's aimed squarely at being a great upgrade for the 13-inch Air, whose 15W ultra-low-voltage processors it shares. The pro-ness of Apple's "pro" hardware has always been a slippery marketing-driven subject, but it doesn't make sense to badge your mainstream everyman notebook — which is what a 13-inch Air replacement is — as "pro."

I think it was maybe designed as something else (remember, pre-launch, all those weird rumors about a new 13-inch MacBook, and we couldn't figure out why Apple would sell a 13-inch version of 12-inch baby Mac?) but then, when it came time to decide how to market the new line, they decided that it was the same shape as the Pro, and they knew they were going to take heat for the higher prices and saying "the new MacBook Pro starting at $1499" sounds a hell of a lot better than "starting at $1799," so voila, it's a Pro. But anything, anything is better than the Pro-without-Touch-Bar, Pro-with-Touch-Bar mess we have today.

Call it MacBook Plus. Or MacBook Prime, or literally anything else. If it's a different computer for a different market, it should have a different name. Unclear branding just reeks of unclear thinking. And in a weird way, the current name undermines the Touch Bar initiative — it's like, "am I supposed to want one or not? They still make this all-new 'Pro' without it...is it like a weird optional thing?" Whereas, if it was MacBook, MacBook Plus, MacBook Pro, and every Pro had the Touch Bar, it would be like, okay, that's the fancy future thing, that's where the puck is going (Apple says), but if you don't need that and don't need the most powerful guts there's that middle model. Which is more accurate to the actual situation of how things are today.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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chucker
 
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2017-05-24, 11:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Apple's in this weird spot right now where they offer three very different computers, all called MacBook Pro.
That's not even counting that they still offer the previous-generation MBPs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Of these, the "MacBook Pro without Touch Bar" is the hardest to describe; it's weird to define a product by something it lacks, which is why officially it's the "MacBook Pro (Two ThunderBolt 3 Ports)", but even that is kind of doing the same thing, just in nicer terms. I think coming up with weird euphemisms like that is a symptom of bad branding.
Yup.

There's simply too many models. Schiller mentioned something off-hand about this being the next Air, but for one, the Air still sells, and second, shouldn't the MacBook already be the next Air? So muddled.

So that model's raison d'être seems two-fold: the Touch Bar ones are still too pricey, and the Air will eventually be replaced with this. (I hope it's not, thirdly, because some folks wanted a version without the Touch Bar. That would be a very troubling lack of focus.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
Perhaps to Apple's chagrin, the Touch Bar isn't even that big of a deal (yet);
Troublingly, neither is the Force Touch trackpad. After almost two years, very little happened in the way of interesting uses — iMovie's scrubber is supposedly nice, but that was two years ago. Where is the third-party innovation?

They seem to push quite a bit harder with the Touch Bar, perhaps in part because of lack of Force Touch uptake.

(And once more, I shall point out that it's a bad choice to ship Touch Bar v1 without the Taptic Engine. It could make it much better.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
the main reason to get the Pro with Touch Bar is the way faster hardware,
Well, faster at the cost of higher power draw → more heat, worse battery life, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
so having the nomenclature for the models (official or otherwise) revolve around their Touch-Bar-ness is odd. And by Apple's own admission, the 13-inch Pro-Without-Touch-Bar isn't even really a "pro" machine at all; it's aimed squarely at being a great upgrade for the 13-inch Air, whose 15W ultra-low-voltage processors it shares. The pro-ness of Apple's "pro" hardware has always been a slippery marketing-driven subject, but it doesn't make sense to badge your mainstream everyman notebook — which is what a 13-inch Air replacement is — as "pro."
The line-up is so muddled and blurred that it's hard to say what the suffixes mean. Pro doesn't mean a dGPU, nor four cores. It doesn't even mean Thunderbolt because the Air has that, too. As does FutureAir™.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo View Post
I think it was maybe designed as something else (remember, pre-launch, all those weird rumors about a new 13-inch MacBook, and we couldn't figure out why Apple would sell a 13-inch version of 12-inch baby Mac?) but then, when it came time to decide how to market the new line, they decided that it was the same shape as the Pro, and they knew they were going to take heat for the higher prices and saying "the new MacBook Pro starting at $1499" sounds a hell of a lot better than "starting at $1799," so voila, it's a Pro. But anything, anything is better than the Pro-without-Touch-Bar, Pro-with-Touch-Bar mess we have today.
Maybe.

Quote:
Call it MacBook Plus. Or MacBook Prime, or literally anything else. If it's a different computer for a different market, it should have a different name. Unclear branding just reeks of unclear thinking. And in a weird way, the current name undermines the Touch Bar initiative — it's like, "am I supposed to want one or not? They still make this all-new 'Pro' without it...is it like a weird optional thing?" Whereas, if it was MacBook, MacBook Plus, MacBook Pro, and every Pro had the Touch Bar, it would be like, okay, that's the fancy future thing, that's where the puck is going (Apple says), but if you don't need that and don't need the most powerful guts there's that middle model. Which is more accurate to the actual situation of how things are today.
I'm hoping this'll become better once they're able to kill off the Air.
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Frank777
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2017-05-24, 14:48

This is ridiculous nonsense. If new chips are ready, ship them.

People who would complain about a June refresh to an October product launch are idiots.
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chucker
 
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2017-05-24, 16:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
This is ridiculous nonsense. If new chips are ready, ship them.

People who would complain about a June refresh to an October product launch are idiots.
Indeed. Eight months is plenty, and Apple was criticized a lot for not refreshing frequently enough. Now they're being criticized for refreshing too frequently?
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Robo
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2017-05-27, 08:50

Apple's done this exact thing before — debut a new MacBook Pro design in October, release an upgrade to fix some common gripes the following June at WWDC — in 2008/2009, with the first unibody Pros. They even made some branding tweaks, turning the 13" unibody MacBook into a MacBook Pro, which inspired my earlier post.

Not only would I not be upset by a quick upgrade cycle, I'd be totally fine if these new laptops had a ~9 month upgrade cycle, too, and I'll be buying one of these new ones. I'd love for Apple to start adopting Intel's new chips closer to when they're first available, which is usually just after CES for the full line these days. (And of all Apple's products, Macs are the least seasonal and arguably the least chained to the fall OS releases, so if you're spacing out events in each quarter, it makes sense for Macs to be the spring event.)

Plus, Intel's Coffee Lake means we could finally see six-core 15-inch Pros, and quad-core 13-inch Pros-with-touch-bar, which would be awesome. (The 13-inch Pro-without-touch-bar would likely go Cannonlake and stay dual-core, which further underscores the need for a branding divergence.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker
That's not even counting that they still offer the previous-generation MBPs.

[...]

I'm hoping this'll become better once they're able to kill off the Air.
Yeah, I'm really hoping they have the *cough* courage to drop the Air and old Pro at this point and just have MacBook, MacBook "Plus," MacBook Pro. Good, better, best. Anything more is just too much ("so 'Air' means it's…thicker and heavier?"). Even if they do something weird like keep the current-gen base MacBook around at $999 as their student special (in silver only, natch) that would at least be one fewer line/brand to confuse things. And people who bought the entry level Mac would get a more modern machine with a Retina display, double the storage, and USB-C.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong

Last edited by Robo : 2017-05-27 at 09:08.
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El Gallo
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2017-05-27, 09:29

Well my son is getting a 13 NTB Macbook Pro. If they are going to update I hope they do it within the return window. I even asked if he wanted to wait until the end of the summer. He said nope and to pull the trigger on it.
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Frank777
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2017-05-27, 22:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by El Gallo View Post
Well my son is getting a 13 NTB Macbook Pro. If they are going to update I hope they do it within the return window. I even asked if he wanted to wait until the end of the summer. He said nope and to pull the trigger on it.
He doesn't have to wait till the end of the summer. He literally just has to wait nine days to see if anything changes.
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El Gallo
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2017-05-29, 06:40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
He doesn't have to wait till the end of the summer. He literally just has to wait nine days to see if anything changes.
Went to Best Buy to take advantage of the Memorial Day sale. They were out of stock on the baseline 13 NTB Macbook Pro. They couldn't reorder it and no store within 250 miles had stock as well.

I'm guessing that is a sign.
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Robo
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2017-05-29, 14:40

Shipments of the 15-inch MacBook Pro have slipped to just after the event next week. itshappening.gif
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chucker
 
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2017-05-29, 16:24

Interesting. If they miraculously find a way to give 'em 32 GB, I'll be quite tempted.
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Robo
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2017-05-31, 13:45

MacRumors reports that Apple has made European regulatory filings for five new Mac models, as well as a new keyboard and four new devices running iOS. happeningintensifies.gif

Reading the tea leaves: Five new Mac models is a lot. They're all listed as running macOS 10.12, so that means they're probably coming before Q4, when Macs would start shipping with macOS 10.13 (or macOS 11!). Apple tends to introduce new peripherals alongside iMac updates, and the iMac is well overdue for an update after not seeing any action last year. But if two of those model numbers are for iMacs (21.5-inch and 27-inch), that would only leave three newly registered model numbers for MacBooks, and the MacBook line would need at least four model numbers (unless they're dropping one of the 13-inch models). Maybe we will see a new MacBook Air?

Last year felt like a really slow year for new Apple products, but now it seems like everything's coming down the pike at once.

and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong
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chucker
 
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2017-05-31, 15:19

It's five new Mac minis. One color each. Complementary iPod sock.
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