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Question about US Election campaign
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Chinney
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
 
2016-03-03, 21:20

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoe View Post
Who is the 'ineffectual boob' you'd rather have and why do you support them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
[...] Chinney referred to Trump as that in his post.
Looking at this realistically, I might have added that 'ineffectual boob' could be a best case scenario for Trump.

Anyway, I am linking an article that puts together, in their own words, accounts of secret Trump supporters on why they support him. Even if the frustration that has led to his rise is understandable, it still makes for some sobering reading. What really strikes me is the lack of confidence of a number of writers of his actual ability to do a good job or even their feeling that he will likely do a terrible job, but at least he will shake things up.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ters-speak-out

"Do I like Trump’s platform? No, I think most of it is silly and misguided, but at least it is not the same bullshit casserole that has been on the menu in Washington DC for as long as I have been alive."

"It isn’t a vote for Trump, but rather a vote against the political establishment (which must be removed from office at any cost – even if it means electing a reality TV star for president)."

"I believe that it is too late for a conventional cure. So, there is Trump. He is indeed a buffoon and a recipe for disaster. If he were to do half of the horrific things he says he would, he would be a catastrophe. He could be a blend of Hitler and Hirohito. That’s why I would vote for him."

"It’s not that I like Trump. It’s that I hate those who can’t stand him."

There is a destructiveness underlying this that is leading nowhere good.

When there's an eel in the lake that's as long as a snake that's a moray.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2016-03-03, 22:13

So what you're saying is that if Trump makes it into office that I should pack my family up and move to another country?

As a conservative voter I'm really sad by the options at hand. Like, I'm horrified personally. Will I vote the candidate that best fits my beliefs, yes. Will I be pleased with that option...not likely.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-03, 23:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle View Post
So what you're saying is that if Trump makes it into office that I should pack my family up and move to another country?

As a conservative voter I'm really sad by the options at hand. Like, I'm horrified personally. Will I vote the candidate that best fits my beliefs, yes. Will I be pleased with that option...not likely.
I'm in the same boat as you. The last two months have been horrifying. The GOP is about the hand the nomination to a fascist who will order our armed forces to commit war crimes.

What in the fuck is even going on? In the last twelve hours, Romney got in the fray, Christie denied being a hostage, Trump told us he has a big schlong and Cruz ate a booger.

I'm terrified of a Trump presidency but I'm far more scared of the mindset of his supporters. Even if Trump loses, either the nomination or the general, that mindset isn't going away and I have no idea how to placate it. It's not even left-right anymore, it's just angry, pissed off people looking for anyone to stoke their feelings.

I'd much rather take bullshit-as-usual over this guy. Maybe that's easy for me to say because bullshit-as-usual has been pretty good to me but I have a bad feeling about this.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2016-03-04, 01:24

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424...thoritarianism

This is quite the fascinating (long) article, and worth the read. It honestly does a pretty good job of diving into the whys behind the psychology leading to the rise of demagogues, without passing overt judgment of the supporters themselves. I'd love to see the underlying research more closely, I should seek it out.

They do lay into Trump a bit as the exemplar demagogue, but this type of article, or research, isn't going to be written by someone who thinks it's a natural evolution of politics. It takes a "Buhwha? What the hell?" moment to want to find out the whys.

tl;dr: Fear and insecurity due to abstract circumstances real, artificial, or imagined, *if* a human face can be put to them, drive a particular psychological profile to demand someone, anyone, take charge for them, and do whatever is possible (not necessary) to make the fear go away. This profile is not inherently right-wing or left-wing, but latent until specific *external* stressors trigger it. It is much deeper than simplistic and shallow labels of bigotry (in any direction) or xenophobia. Why it has converged at this point in time, in one political party, is really quite interesting. What's less interesting and more concerning, however, is what it means moving forward. This isn't about Trump, this is about a segment of the populace.
  quote
addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-03-04, 09:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
I'm in the same boat as you. The last two months have been horrifying. The GOP is about the hand the nomination to a fascist who will order our armed forces to commit war crimes.
Well according to the "experts" he would then lose in a big way to HRC. That would leave you with President Hilary Clinton who would then order the military to commit war crimes. Let's be honest here. Trump is the least militaristic candidate running. Yes he says he would "knock the hell out of ISIS" but so do the others. They all want to talk tough. But he also says we need to stop overthrowing countries in the ME as it makes things worse. I would consider what Obama and Clinton did to Libya a war crime. Wouldn't you? He said Iraq was a mistake as well as what we are doing in Syria. He talks about the most disgusting regime out there, the Saudis. They own the others. He said it was a mistake to help overthrow the elected gov't in Ukraine. The others want a new Cold War wanting to arm them and put them in NATO. That would be good for the military contractors I guess. He was booed when he said he would be even handed when trying to negotiate with Israel and Palestine. Clinton and the others are owned by Israel. So I don't see how other candidates are better than this "fascism" you are worried about.

I'm not thrilled with any of these candidates. I haven't voted in a Presidential election since '92 and I doubt that will change but it is easy to see why Trump is attracting followers and it isn't a yearning to turn the country into a dictatorship like that horrible article someone posted says. It's simply that he talks about issues that people are worried about but the others can't speak to because they are owned. A perfect example is artificially low interest rates. Trump said that for a guy like him they are great but it's not a great deal for the average person as it forces them into the shark infested waters of the rigged stock market and encourages increased debt. You will never hear another candidate say something like that. If you ask HRC she will offer the standard "no comment". She is completely owned by the banks.

That being said I wouldn't be surprised if a President Trump was not much different than what we have now. I've lived in New Jersey most of my life so I've had my fair share of Trump over the years. In the end he likes to make deals and negotiate. He has been on all sides of lots of issues over the years which makes him like the others in a way. He would of course sell his Presidency as life changing but I doubt he would deliver what candidate Trump is saying. So maybe you have nothing to worry about.

Last edited by addison : 2016-03-04 at 09:28.
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2016-03-04, 09:25

The more I think about it, the more I think having Trump actually get the nomination or hell, even win, would be a great thing for our political establishment.

We've dealt with the same nonsense from these politicians for years, and no one with enough influence has stepped up to try and move the US politicians Ina. Different direction.

Trump may be crazy as a president, but then again, I could make that claim for each of the other candidates that are left at this point.

No more Twitter. It's Mastodon now.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2016-03-04, 10:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
He has been on all sides of lots of issues over the years which makes him like the others in a way. He would of course sell his Presidency as life changing but I doubt he would deliver what candidate Trump is saying. So maybe you have nothing to worry about.
This is an interesting point. Basically that it doesn't matter what a president's personal stance on an issue is - what matters is that he or she will do what is best for the country regardless of their personal stance. I've never really thought about it that way but compare someone like Ted Cruz or any other evangelical candidate, who stakes their entire campaign on "principles." Cruz has even said he is "a Christian first and an American second." That scares me way more than Trump, really. Does it mean he's going to put Christian values ahead of the interests of the United States?

The only thing about Trump is I absolutely do not trust him to use his position, should he become president, to actually help the country. He'll probably just use it to advance his own interests. But the same could be said for any candidate.

Conspicuously absent from your post was any mention of Bernie Sanders. I know he has like less than 1% chance of winning the nomination now, but he seems like someone who has not been bought by corporations and lobbyists, and he is also not a warmonger. I've heard a lot of criticism of his tax plans, some founded and some unfounded, but you have to admire his ideals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran View Post
The more I think about it, the more I think having Trump actually get the nomination or hell, even win, would be a great thing for our political establishment.

We've dealt with the same nonsense from these politicians for years, and no one with enough influence has stepped up to try and move the US politicians Ina. Different direction.

Trump may be crazy as a president, but then again, I could make that claim for each of the other candidates that are left at this point.
Yeah, maybe President Trump is all we need to get this shit out of our system.
  quote
Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2016-03-04, 19:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Well according to the "experts" he would then lose in a big way to HRC. That would leave you with President Hilary Clinton who would then order the military to commit war crimes.
Unfounded speculation.

Quote:
Let's be honest here. Trump is the least militaristic candidate running. Yes he says he would "knock the hell out of ISIS" but so do the others.
That title goes to Sanders.

Quote:
They all want to talk tough. But he also says we need to stop overthrowing countries in the ME as it makes things worse.
They're chicken shits with no military service so they have to talk tough. At least Obama had the grace to say he takes every american life he sends abroad to be precious. They may have been empty words (who knows?), but it's a huge difference than lets carpet bomb a sovereign nation.

Quote:
I would consider what Obama and Clinton did to Libya a war crime. Wouldn't you?
No. It doesn't count as a war crime -- the state was destabilized with the Arab spring and supporting the armed rebellion doesn't count as voiding a nation's sovereignty...

Quote:
He said Iraq was a mistake as well as what we are doing in Syria.
Iraq wasn't merely a mistake -- it was the clusterfuck that started this whole toppling dominos thing. The right choice in Syria was one no one wanted to follow: boots on ground soon after rebels were attacked by chemical weapons. But whatever, hindsight make foresight better than 20/20.

Quote:
He talks about the most disgusting regime out there, the Saudis.
This is easy. Everyone knows the Sauds are fair weather allies.

Quote:
They own the others.
No, they don't. They're not even close to having the control or influence this implies. Nor is Trump capable of seeing that bringing Iran back into the mix weakens the Saudi hand. But whatever, international politics is not his thing (nor is domestic policy but that is also obvious).

Quote:
He said it was a mistake to help overthrow the elected gov't in Ukraine.
Did we help or is this just another unproven RT assertion?

Quote:
The others want a new Cold War wanting to arm them and put them in NATO. That would be good for the military contractors I guess.
Actually, it would be good for NATO member states dependent upon a stable western looking regime in the Ukraine... you know, Europe. But I don't think the other GOPers are proposing this other than to poke Putin in the eye...

Quote:
He was booed when he said he would be even handed when trying to negotiate with Israel and Palestine. Clinton and the others are owned by Israel.
This sounds like the anti-Zionist tirades of olde. Not that I like Zionism, but it is a short bridge to full on anti-semitism from here. Israel doesn't own anyone as 'Israel' isn't a singular intellectual movement.

Quote:
So I don't see how other candidates are better than this "fascism" you are worried about.
Of course you wouldn't since you seem not to be listening to the others, and are filling in Trump's deeply empty speech with thoughts that don't deserve to be there.

Quote:
... If you ask HRC she will offer the standard "no comment". She is completely owned by the banks.
Speculation and bullshit. This whole owned-by meme in this election is meaningless. Only one candidate has intimate ties to banks and his name is Cruz.

Quote:
That being said I wouldn't be surprised if a President Trump was not much different than what we have now.
I guess if you feel disempowered, an actual fascist state wouldn't seemingly be much different, especially if you're not muslim, gay, jewish, a liberal, an environmentalist, etc. etc...
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2016-03-04, 19:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
Conspicuously absent from your post was any mention of Bernie Sanders. I know he has like less than 1% chance of winning the nomination now...
The later primaries tip in his favor: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/3...e-of-the-South

I know, I know, it's dailykos, I apologize for that. Interesting datapoints however.

Also, the actual bound delegate count is rather closer than being reported by lumping in super delegates - they will go as the wind blows, if the past is any indication.

If Clinton's campaign stumbles in any major way, it could be anyone's nomination.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-10, 21:54

This GOP debate tonight is the dumpster fire at the end of the world.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-11, 10:39

I love it. The left points fingers at the right, the right points fingers at the left.

Good stuff.

Listening to polarized human politics is like watching Lions and Packers fans threaten each other over whose stadium has the best $9 hot dog.

For the establishment, it's "mission accomplished".

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2016-03-11, 11:29

...and the damn election is still seven-plus months away. Which means the true, unhinged idiocy, handwringing, pandering, atomic-level lying/promises, hyper-partisan fuckwittery, negative campaigning, attacks, character assassination and general nastiness hasn't even kicked in yet.



We're still in the preliminary "weed out the day-players, wannabes and no-chancers and narrow it down to the true, full-tilt mental patients, wastes-of-space, ego cases and bullcrap artisans who'll actually land the gig" phase.

Believe it or not - and as funny/unbelievable as it sounds - right now is as "civil" and sane as this whole thing is going to be. Remember that, 4-5 months from now...

Last edited by psmith2.0 : 2016-03-11 at 11:40.
  quote
Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2016-03-11, 12:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
I love it. The left points fingers at the right, the right points fingers at the left.

Good stuff.

Listening to polarized human politics is like watching Lions and Packers fans threaten each other over whose stadium has the best $9 hot dog.

For the establishment, it's "mission accomplished".
Hence why anti-establishment candidates Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders have so much support. Clinton, Cruz, and Rubio would all represent a continuation of the status quo. I'd love a Trump-Sanders general election. Either way, we'll get the president we damn well deserve. The problem with past elections is the anti-establishment candidates can't make it through the nomination phase, so we end up with two more-of-the-same candidates running against each other every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
...and the damn election is still seven-plus months away. Which means the true, unhinged idiocy, handwringing, pandering, atomic-level lying/promises, hyper-partisan fuckwittery, negative campaigning, attacks, character assassination and general nastiness hasn't even kicked in yet.



We're still in the preliminary "weed out the day-players, wannabes and no-chancers and narrow it down to the true, full-tilt mental patients, wastes-of-space, ego cases and bullcrap artisans who'll actually land the gig" phase.

Believe it or not - and as funny/unbelievable as it sounds - right now is as "civil" and sane as this whole thing is going to be. Remember that, 4-5 months from now...
I don't know, I think usually presidential candidates have to shift their image once the nomination is locked up. You have to go hyper-partisan and crazy to energize your base during the nomination process, because the people who vote in primaries tend to be more partisan and extreme.

Once you reach the general election, you have to pander to all those middle of the road voters who don't want an insane person running the country (too late!). So I guess pandering and lying promises go up, hyper-partisanry and nastiness maybe go down a little. If Trump wins the nomination, it'll be interesting to see if he'll be able to rein in his overt racism or if he'll keep shooting his mouth off.
  quote
addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-03-11, 12:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
The problem with past elections is the anti-establishment candidates can't make it through the nomination phase, so we end up with two more-of-the-same candidates running against each other every time.
We've had a number of anti establishment types make it through. Just in the modern era we had Goldwater in '64. He was loathed by the ruling class. Then we had back to back ones in Carter and Reagan. Neither were the choice of insiders. Most big money went to others. The bigger problem is that most of the times these people end up getting co opted once in office.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-11, 13:17

I find the idea that Trump is an anti-establishment candidate to be farcical. He's part of the donor class he so fervently claims to despise and has admitted so himself.
  quote
addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-03-11, 17:32

Since the entire Republican establishment is against him and mounting various campaigns to stop him I guess you could say he is anti establishment? As far as donations he has said he was trying to buy influence. People find it refreshing to hear someone admit it. Now go ask Hillary the same question. She says people just want to hear her talk for hundreds of thousands of dollars and not expect anything in return. Like Sanders said, must be one hell of a speech.
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-12, 02:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by addison View Post
Since the entire Republican establishment is against him and mounting various campaigns to stop him I guess you could say he is anti establishment?
Not sure I would call Trump "anti-establishment" any longer. I would rather call the establishment "Anti-Trump".
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-15, 11:08

The Ides of March are upon us. Today we find out if Trump takes 1237 before the convention or if we're heading for absolute chaos in Cleveland. The pundits in my Twitter timeline all agree that if Trump loses Ohio, he likely can't clinch the nomination—there's just no path with the remaining states for him to reach that, especially if the race narrows, since the calendar reverts back to mostly closed proportional states after this. Trump generally does poorly in closed states and if the race is reduced to just him and Cruz, proportional states won't help Trump get to 1237 fast enough, since he'll just keep splitting delegates with Cruz.

Kasich has so far held on to his polling lead in his home state, making the chaos scenario very likely.

Florida has the potential to be the biggest surprise of the cycle so far. Polls favor Trump but one has early voting returns going two-to-one to Rubio, albeit of a very small sample.

We're also going to find out exactly how the violence of the last few days plays in these states. Trump has brought the racial identity politics of the Left squarely into the realm of the white Right, but we have yet to see if that will be embraced by GOP primary voters who don't see themselves as disaffected or left behind—and those are the key voters in closed primary states, since so many of the potential voters who sign on to Trump's world view aren't registered Republicans, so they can't vote in four of the five states in play today.

In any case, this graph nicely sums up exactly why the GOP contest this year is so fucked up:

  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2016-03-15, 12:10

Trump is a bit like Apple in this regard. Pay very little to the media, and as a a consequence, get a lot of bad press, which you then use to your advantage.

Ha-larious!

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
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Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2016-03-15, 12:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
Trump is a bit like Apple in this regard. Pay very little to the media, and as a a consequence, get a lot of bad press, which you then use to your advantage.

Ha-larious!
What bad press? Cable news—on both sides—has been breathlessly broadcasting his live rallies for months now. Trump was on several of the Sunday shows this weekend and not one of them asked a single question about his campaign manager assaulting a reporter.

They're his fluffers, not his critics.
  quote
TheOtherDave
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
 
2016-03-15, 13:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
I find the idea that Trump is an anti-establishment candidate to be farcical. He's part of the donor class he so fervently claims to despise and has admitted so himself.
Strictly speaking, the "establishment" isn't the same as the "donor class", is it? I thought the former are those in charge of the RNC (to the extent that anyone is these days), and the latter are the ones who've paid-off the former.

At least, I think.
  quote
addison
Formerly “AWM”
 
Join Date: May 2009
 
2016-03-15, 13:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
What bad press? Cable news—on both sides—has been breathlessly broadcasting his live rallies for months now. Trump was on several of the Sunday shows this weekend and not one of them asked a single question about his campaign manager assaulting a reporter.

They're his fluffers, not his critics.
The press aren't critical of Trump? What news are you watching? The reporter story got a lot of coverage. You have leftist media as well as Fox and other so called conservative publications saying Trump is fascist or racist, a bigot, or inciting violence. That doesn't sound too fawning to me. Some may say it even seems coordinated.

As far as the rallies if you were running a cable channel you'd be doing the same thing. He brings ratings. As soon as they cut away the ratings drop.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 16:50

I'm not entirely sure that Trump isn't doing all of this for the lulz. There is no way that he thought he'd get as far as he is today, so I truly think he's just winging it now to see how far he can go with changing positions daily, obvious lying and spouting utter nonsense.

I'm 75% sure it's a Trump Production™ on how he single-handedly ripped the Republican Party to pieces. King of the Birthers, Tea Party Favorite, etc. They love a loud, self-assured asshole, so for better or worse they got what they wanted. But as a Presidential candidate. So yeah, all their blustering anti-everything heros don't look so sane now.

So it goes.

Last edited by 709 : 2016-03-15 at 17:07.
  quote
TheOtherDave
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
 
2016-03-15, 18:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by 709 View Post
I'm not entirely sure that Trump isn't doing all of this for the lulz. There is no way that he thought he'd get as far as he is today, so I truly think he's just winging it now to see how far he can go with changing positions daily, obvious lying and spouting utter nonsense.

I'm 75% sure it's a Trump Production™ on how he single-handedly ripped the Republican Party to pieces. King of the Birthers, Tea Party Favorite, etc. They love a loud, self-assured asshole, so for better or worse they got what they wanted. But as a Presidential candidate. So yeah, all their blustering anti-everything heros don't look so sane now.
I kinda hope that's what's happening... Maybe the GOP would finally start getting serious after the dust settles.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 18:29

They can't, and that's the entire problem. There is no seriousness to be had. It's all reactionary now, and that pretty much leaves them with nothing underfoot.

So it goes.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 19:31

Holy Shit did Rubio just drop out? That's huge.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 20:18

So there we have it. Clinton has likely won all 5 states from the 03.15 round, and probably gained the Democratic nomination in the process.

I hate her, but that's a bridge to cross before November.

It looks like a Kasich victory in Ohio, which means absolutely fuck-all for Kasich. What this does mean is an absolute firestorm clusterfuck of epic schadenfreude while we watch Republicans eat their own young live on FOX.

So it goes.
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2016-03-15, 20:18

Rubio dropping out seems to seal the deal for Trump.

This is crazy. This entire cycle is nuts, on both sides.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 20:29

Hillary R. Clinton vs Donald J. Trump


What the fuck? what the fuck.
  quote
709
¡Damned!
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
 
2016-03-15, 20:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
The Ides of March are upon us. Today we find out if Trump takes 1237 before the convention or if we're heading for absolute chaos in Cleveland.
There is no way, ever, that we're going towards a brokered convention. Trump will be the nominee (until he falls down and dies.... 50/50 he dies before June).

So it goes.
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