[Bryson]

I kind of feel like this subject needs to be discussed. I'm fully prepared for everyone else to disagree, but here goes.

I have a problem with Creative Mode and Survival on the same server.

I was just trolling the map and the contrast in structures between those who can spawn their own materials (and fly) and those who can't is stark. It's so far away, it's like we're not even playing the same game. What's the point of mining for hours to make your blue carpet when the guy next door has a house made of lapis blocks and glowstone with a diamond floor? Why bother putting together a town when there's a whole city built effortlessly to the south? Why build a mobtrap when we could just fill chests by "magic" if we really wanted to?

I'm not saying the structures that have been created this way aren't well-made, or cool, or interesting. Just that if they were built without access to magic, I'd be a lot more impressed. (And I'd feel a lot better about having to spend hours resource-gathering if I knew everyone else had done the same.)

I genuinely think that overabundance is off-putting to newer members. How can they possibly hope to ever even approach that? It's certainly putting me off. This is tricky to broach as I'm calling out the people who run the server: and indeed, it's your server with which you may do as you wish. But I'm invested too and it's affecting my game-playing experience, so I feel like I should say something.

Is this a survival server, or creative? If creative, why not give everyone that power? There's a reason why other servers separate creative mode from survival.

I think limited spawning is a good thing - for nether materials we can't get another way, or for tools (I think Iron tools break way too soon as Notch currently has it) but I'd be ok with them going away too.

I know this comes across as "sour grapes" and I'm aware enough to admit to a little of that. But this is a "game" and seems somewhat pointless if some of us only have to follow some of the rules.

I guess if no-one agrees with me I'll just find a remote spot and stay away from all of it. But Loch Greene didn't have this problem (and even Bridgeport was better than this) so it doesn't have to be this way.


Edit: Tl:dr: Brad is corupt.

[drewprops]

I don't see a problem. If people want to play creative, they can do it. If they want survival they can do it. I want to be able to do both. Grabbing a spot out in the wildy wilds should work for you. Maybe we declare an area of primitive survival play?


...

[Bryson]

Dammit, I just realised that I should have called this thread "Occupy Minecraft: We are the 99%"

Next time!

[709]

Originally Posted by drewprops Grabbing a spot out in the wildy wilds should work for you. Maybe we declare an area of primitive survival play?

I think it should be the other way around.

Declare an area for a creative build much like Brad has done and make it so. At least he claimed a swamp biome (which fits given his initial project, but I suspect swamps are the least desirable biomes for players to build upon).


Myself, I like the mining aspect. The entirety of the ocean structure has been built with no freebies except for glowstone, and I intend to keep it that way.

[RowdyScot]

I fully intend for my underwater project to be 100% mined outside of glowstone and mossy cobble.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by 709 Declare an area for a creative build much like Brad has done and make it so. At least he claimed a swamp biome (which fits given his initial project, but I suspect swamps are the least desirable biomes for players to build upon).

Precisely. I actually thought quite carefully about picking my plot of land and looked over the map a bit before settling. I wanted something that was flat and swampy, close enough to be reached within a reasonable walk from other settlements, but not so close as to encroach on other people's projects. Finding a corner coastal location was a bonus since it, opposed to an inland location, reduced the chance of being someone's future neighbor.

I did bend one rule knowing that gerlocian would be right next to me, but in exchange I've promised him free reign to all the resources under my little city since I'm not planning to mine down there.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by RowdyScot I fully intend for my underwater project to be 100% mined outside of glowstone and mossy cobble.

Spoiler alert: RowdyScot's underwater project is going to be built entirely of glowstone and mossy cobble.

[RowdyScot]

Originally Posted by Brad Spoiler alert: RowdyScot's underwater project is going to be built entirely of glowstone and mossy cobble.

Nah, the mossy cobble may have a good chunk of the percentage, but glowstone won't be a major part. Just where needed. I'll use mossy cobble I have first. Some mossy stone brick, too, perhaps.

[Elysium]

I'm one of the people that will always build with materials I gather except for un-obtainiums (glowstone, ice). I don't mind if some people use creative mode, in limited areas and groups mind you, as they tend to create some cool stuff.

In the mean time I have to shake my head at some of the mega-projects we did with just our own materials and just marvel at the shear undertaking of them.

[billybobsky]

Ok. I agree that material use should be kept limited. I didn't ask that the mob trap be dug out using magic. It certainly could have been, but I like the challenge of planning a strategy for construction and enacting it. A lot of the materials for the mob trap internal workings were provided (as was the TNT used for blowing most of the hole out) by interested ops. Particularly el hovero, who greatly simplified its construction by duplicating a section of trap built by Artrap, 709 and myself.

I am of the opinion that we should keep the obviously modded in structures out of the way. Brad's city is impressive and I think fine, in that it is very out of the way from the vast majority of construction (albeit right next door to gerlocian and Bryson, to some degree). However, some of the more egregious and flouting examples around the map disgust me. Brad *could* have built his stuff with hard work and mining/donations. Mrs. T *couldn't* have.

[Bryson]

Indeed: just to lay the floor in the Lapis/Glowstone house would require mining every diamond in a 18,000 block square.

I dunno, it just grates on me, and I'm sure I would abuse the power too if I were granted it. But I'd like to hope that someone would call me on it: so, here I am, calling you on it.

I'd really love for us to at least return to "Bridgeport" levels of freebie-ness.

Edit; Just realised that this would extend the world to 9000,y,9000 and -9000,y,-9000. So, OVER 9000. /meme

[drewprops]

Why don't IIIIIIIII have 8,000 truckloads of glowstone yet???


...

[turtle]

So I have to ask, what does it really matter? Does one structure next to another really make that much difference? Who are we showing off the server maps to to have judged on quality and build? Does it make you feel smaller or less of a miner because there is obvious resource gifting in use? Does it make you feel greater of a miner because you worked for you resources and "some" didn't?

It just plain doesn't matter to me. No, it really doesn't. As I said before I don't mind giving resources to players and will continue to do so. Mrs T happens to really loves the opulence of the Sartor Shoppe because that's the point of it. Take it for what it is, a display of opulence.

How is the game really this big of a deal to anyone that if some players use gifts and other don't that your game is ruined? So spend you waking moments walking around turtle Estates or looking over it on my maps I provide thinking everything is made with magic. I'll sleep well at night over this. It's a game.

If you work hard for everything you build, I will respect that. In fact, I look at it as awesome and respectable. However, this is a game. I hold nothing against any of you who may think less of me and Mrs T as players in the game and this post isn't against any of you.

Bottom line: if you want a resource from me, ask and I'll give it. The Armory and Tool Shed are staying open for business. If you don't want to use gifted resources, don't use them.

Originally Posted by drewprops Why don't IIIIIIIII have 8,000 truckloads of glowstone yet???

You haven't asked.

[Bryson]

I'll answer the questions. I don't expect you to change your mind, but I do expect to have the right to express my opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by turtle So I have to ask, what does it really matter?

Well, clearly, it does to me.

Does one structure next to another really make that much difference?

To me, yes.

Who are we showing off the server maps to to have judged on quality and build?

Each other! Isnt that the point?

Does it make you feel smaller or less of a miner because there is obvious resource gifting in use?

More like "what's the point?"

Does it make you feel greater of a miner because you worked for you resources and "some" didn't?

To be honest, yes.


I'm not trying to start a fight, or say that so-and-so is a bad person. I'm just saying the effect that this policy has on my enjoyment of the game. I just think the difference is jarring.

And, I'll say again: bear in mind the power relationship here. Whatever you decide is what's going to happen. If it didn't genuinely make the game less fun for me, why would I stick my neck out?

[RowdyScot]

For what it is worth, I don't really mind if anyone is using ridiculous numbers of materials for things. If I were to make another Zelda level, and the only way to get the appearance I'd hope for is to use something of which I simply could not possibly obtain a realistic amount (gold/lapis/diamond/etc), I'd ask for it. I like to obtain what I can with mining my own stuff, but if I need something I can't otherwise get (a huge diamond platform, etc), asking is the best way. I don't consider that abusing the system if the intended result is still built block-by-block. The work that has gone in has still gone in for the vast majority, save a few blocks.

If anyone else would rather make something ludicrously extravagant, so be it. I would hope most of us would try to limit that, but sometimes, nothing really works any better. When I go to make Michigan Stadium, I'll be asking for gold and lapis in droves - not because it is extravagant, but because those represent colors and appearance more correctly than blue and yellow wool would.

[alcimedes]

Ha, this is the same argument people have about whether you got that epic mount from a rare drop after farming a boss for months, vs. the people who dropped $20 and bought something.

[billybobsky]

How do I put this: the issue isn't simply the use of op provided resources, we all do that to varying degrees within our comfort level, the issue to me is that this generosity seems to be catalyzing unrepentant hideosity. I am not one to mince words, of course, and I do not find the most extravagant abuses of the ops resource allocation to be attractive constructions. I would be *far* more tolerant if the person building them had worked for the resources they are using, but they haven't and regardless of how much work went into throwing up ugly building number twenty, there is something unsettling about the whole thing. Honestly, never has so much lapis, diamond, birch, and glowstone looked so *cheap*.

But you know what, turtle and brad are free to do as they choose, and the people who ask them for resources are free to do so as well within the confines of our good neighbor guidelines. I would just hope that with free gems comes some amount of taste...

Edit: Pressure off Bryson, I gladly take the mantle of 'that guy'.

[turtle]

Really?

So we go from abuse of "magic" getting resources to 3 grade playground name calling?



Yeah, I'm done in this thread.

[drewprops]

Oh... I just saw the diamond building. Well, Mrs T had essentially the same thing in World 1.0

So. It's a big damn world, folks.

SPREAD OUT!!!!


...

[billybobsky]

sorry turtle, but there is no name calling in my post. i call the buildings like i see them given the nature of their construction/effort.

[709]

True story: Back in the late 80s I used to get high at this house that 3 of my best friends were renting. The house wasn't much in the way of looks, but it was on some nice property. Road front, of course, but it had a few acres of woodland in the back. Enough for a makeshift wiffle ball diamond at least. It was nice. A lot of my finer memories stem from there.

Anyways, the guy they rented from was named Eugene. Eugene was a handyman, and he'd built the entire house by himself. I met him a couple of times, and he was slightly odd, but no more odd than you'd expect from a guy born and raised in mid-Michigan. He had stories of his once trip to Chicago - that was the extent of his traveling - and it was great fun to hear him talk about the one bar he went to and how them gays were there and idunno how people live like that all tight and packed in and whatnot.

A sweet, no-nonsense man. Salt of the earth and all of that.


What was I wanting to get at again?



Oh, right. Eugene and the house that Eugene built.

So, Eugene bought some land and built a house, that much is said. But Eugene looked at the land before he built the house and he said to himself, "I'd rather me and my house look at the woods, not the road." Now, he got all the permits and everything to build the house on the road with the beautiful wooded backyard, but since he was much more enamored with the woods, he built the house with the front facing the woods and the ass facing the street.

I am not kidding.

This was not a designer house or anything where the ass end could possibly be construed as an entrance. This was a typical flat-backed outer-region midwest house with absolutely nothing that would even hint at a back door. At the most it may've had a sliding kitchen window barely enough to slide a body out. But, that's not really even worth considering because that escape was going to dump you in the street out front where all the cops would be anyways.

So, I spent a good portion of my youth in a fucked up house that totally faced the wrong way, and when you drove by it on the street you thought someone had just dumped a house off of a trailer, or they were storing it there until they could move it or turn it around.

[Elysium]

Originally Posted by 709 True story: Back in the late 80s I used to get high at this house that 3 of my best friends were renting. The house wasn't much in the way of looks, but it was on some nice property. Road front, of course, but it had a few acres of woodland in the back. Enough for a makeshift wiffle ball diamond at least. It was nice. A lot of my finer memories stem from there. Anyways, the guy they rented from was named Eugene. Eugene was a handyman, and he'd built the entire house by himself. I met him a couple of times, and he was slightly odd, but no more odd than you'd expect from a guy born and raised in mid-Michigan. He had stories of his once trip to Chicago - that was the extent of his traveling - and it was great fun to hear him talk about the one bar he went to and how them gays were there and idunno how people live like that all tight and packed in and whatnot. A sweet, no-nonsense man. Salt of the earth and all of that. What was I wanting to get at again? Oh, right. Eugene and the house that Eugene built. So, Eugene bought some land and built a house, that much is said. But Eugene looked at the land before he built the house and he said to himself, "I'd rather me and my house look at the woods, not the road." Now, he got all the permits and everything to build the house on the road with the beautiful wooded backyard, but since he was much more enamored with the woods, he built the house with the front facing the woods and the ass facing the street. I am not kidding. This was not a designer house or anything where the ass end could possibly be construed as an entrance. This was a typical flat-backed outer-region midwest house with absolutely nothing that would even hint at a back door. At the most it may've had a sliding kitchen window barely enough to slide a body out. But, that's not really even worth considering because that escape was going to dump you in the street out front where all the cops would be anyways. So, I spent a good portion of my youth in a fucked up house that totally faced the wrong way, and when you drove by it on the street you thought someone had just dumped a house off of a trailer, or they were storing it there until they could move it or turn it around.

Little hitting of the sauce late last night with some hazy noon time regrets?

[709]

No, but thinking about it more I thought it might be intentional. Like the back of a strip mall or something. At least that's what I'm going to tell myself.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by 709 No, but thinking about it more I thought it might be intentional. Like the back of a strip mall or something. At least that's what I'm going to tell myself.

Now I know what my next build is going to look like: the ugly "back" of a building FROM ALL SIDES. Boring flat walls, discrete doors, and loading docks everywhere.

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by Brad Now I know what my next build is going to look like: the ugly "back" of a building FROM ALL SIDES. Boring flat walls, discrete doors, and loading docks everywhere.

I'd love to work in a building with loading docks everywhere. It would be so easy!

[drewprops]

Dude. I'd love to LIVE in a building with its own loading dock. Industrial modern would be swell.

And you know, I have to say that the "Disneyworld" feeling of the Turtles' current development is, actually, a little garish now that I've seen it up close.

Please oh PLEASE don't take this the wrong way, but I do (finally) understand Bryson's original post. I love, love, love being gifted building elements as needed, so I don't want to cut myself off from the graceful giving hand of Brad and the Turtle Family... but if we do develop the area around Spawn Mall could we maybe plant a berm with trees on it to hide the bright colors of Turtleworld?

::ducks:: (the literal action, not an invocation)



...

[drewprops]

I used to care about minecrafting, then I took an arrow to the knee.