[Satchmo]

According to AI, there's one coming down the pipe this year. I'm rather skeptical given that Apple is so focussed on the iPhone. The whole 'touch' interface will probably make it's way to a tablet but I would be okay if this didn't happen until next year.
Refine the whole platform and have a wealth of 'touch apps' and then resurrect the Newton.

BTW, my history is a bit unclear...did Jobs kill the Newton project or was he a part of it before being ousted?

[SKMDC]

Newton actually left Apple and went on it's own, and when Jobs replaced Gil Amelio he reacquired it.

[Kickaha]

Weeeeeeeeelllllll, sort of.

Apple spun off Newton, ala FileMaker, but it never really established itself as an independent entity. When Jobs came back, he pulled it back in. There wasn't ever really an independent Newton Inc., it was sorta-kinda spun off, but wholly owned by Apple.

Later, Jobs cancelled the projects wholesale.

Newton was Scully's baby, not Jobs'. Most people assume it was a revenge knifing, but it was during a massive restructuring and pull-in of Apple's efforts... it made sense to do so, unfortunately. (And I say that as a proud *still* owner and user of a MessagePad 2x00.) The Newton was, literally, a decade ahead of its time.

The iPhone has the possibility of being the resurrection of the Newton, but in a wacky new way - it's OS X on a handheld, and it looks like it just might work. While MacOS X ended up using many aspects of the Newton (Dock, database-backed data stores accessible from any app, pervasive OO), iPhoneOS X looks like it's streamlining things even more. Should be interesting.

[psmith2.0]

That story is written/presented in such a casual, "oh, it's definitely happening" kinda of way.



If people are kinda making purchase and manufacturing/stock decisions based on a "what if", or something they believe is coming, that seems to point to something. I guess people know some things.

I still don't think it has to be a separate, larger device. I think, instead, we already see this "Newton/Pad" thing in the iPod touch.

And when 2.0 arrives with Apple's homegrown improvements and when it opens up to third-party apps (writing, storage, new widgets, new capabilities, etc.), there's your "Newton reborn". Why carry some large (6x8 or bigger) thing if you don't have to? Just so you can call it a "tablet" without giggling?





I think the iPod touch is where it's at. I think we're just waiting for the software and usefulness to catch up to the device's potential. In its current form it kicks the butt of most PDAs out there. Just wait until it opens up, and you can create .doc files and run all sorts of cool, specialized apps (and you know they're coming) that even the highest-end PDA or smartphone doesn't have (or support)...



That iFund guy said during his segment last Thursday that we're "witnessing history". Sounds puffy and overstated, but think about it...right on the cusp of this particular platform - like no other - opening up to all the great third-party brains and ideas. That's something pretty big. The things we'll take for granted, and simply expect, 3-5 years from now - on our iPod touch and iPhones - will be quite astounding, IMO.

I'm actually more excited, deep down, about this end of things than the Mac side. I know it's solid and safe, and that the Intel processors and Leopard (and beyond) are going to carry it. I don't even worry about it. This other stuff is where the fun and innovation lie, and that's what will be exciting to watch and follow in the coming years.

[zippy]

I don't really know how it fits, or how it should be interpreted, but I read a quote from Jobs recently that relates. It's the quote where he said he is as proud of some of the things they didn't do as he is of some of the things they did. But the part that was new to me, is that he followed it up with an example: the PDA. I think the gist of his comment is that there was pressure for Apple to go (back) into the PDA market, but that he's happy they didn't. I think he felt that smartphones were where the future lay - and we've all seen that come to pass.

So the question is.... why would he now entertain the idea again? I know SJ has a habit of dissing something one month, only to come back a month later and release his own, better version. But in this case, I'd have to agree with his sentiment that PDAs are a dead-end market.

If you're talking about an actual tablet computer though, something along the lines of 11-13", and maybe smaller, then I'm all for it. I have used a Samsung Q1 (set it up for a co-worker) and I'd have to say that I really like the tablet interface. Same with my iPhone. Touch screen operation is waaaay better than any trackpad could ever be. Faster, more intuitive, you name it.

[zippy]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I still don't think it has to be a separate, larger device. I think, instead, we already see this "Newton/Pad" thing in the iPod touch. And when 2.0 arrives with Apple's homegrown improvements and when it opens up to third-party apps (writing, storage, new widgets, new capabilities, etc.), there's your "Newton reborn". Why carry some large (6x8 or bigger) thing if you don't have to? Just so you can call it a "tablet" without giggling? I think the iPod touch is where it's at. I think we're just waiting for the software and usefulness to catch up to the device's potential. In its current form it kicks the butt of most PDAs out there. Just wait until it opens up, and you can create .doc files and run all sorts of cool, specialized apps (and you know they're coming) that even the highest-end PDA or smartphone doesn't have (or support)...

I see what you are saying, and can sort of agree, except that I think the Touch and the iPhone are just a wee bit too small for document editing. A tablet around 11" would be great super mobility, with full computing ability.

But... then again, if you need to do that much doc editing on the go, a laptop is still probably the best device.

I'm torn. I think a tablet Mac would be cool and useful, but I'm just not sure there is a need for one for the masses. Though I think they'd be perfect for the medical community, enforcement community, etc.: occupations where you need to fill in forms and such. All the docs at my wife's clinic use tablet PCs and Palm devices. What they need is a tablet Mac and a supplemental Touch/iPhone.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by zippy I see what you are saying, and can sort of agree, except that I think the Touch and the iPhone are just a wee bit too small for document editing. A tablet around 11" would be great super mobility, with full computing ability. But... then again, if you need to do that much doc editing on the go, a laptop is still probably the best device. I'm torn. I think a tablet Mac would be cool and useful, but I'm just not sure there is a need for one for the masses. Though I think they'd be perfect for the medical community, enforcement community, etc.: occupations where you need to fill in forms and such. All the docs at my wife's clinic use tablet PCs and Palm devices. What they need is a tablet Mac and a supplemental Touch/iPhone.

11"?? Why not just get a laptop?? Yeesh, that's huge.

I still maintain that an A5 screen with a micro bezel is the best possible form factor for a tablet. Small enough to fit in a large pocket (lab coat, jacket, etc), large enough to be useful for data entry (as opposed to lookup or selection), and in landscape mode it's the width of a piece of paper. Nice for reading scrolling documents.

Unfortunately, it appears that the iPhone/iPod Touch grew out of a tablet project that was scrapped. So unless Jobs has a change of heart (*snort*), the Apple tablet isn't likely to see the light of day for quite a while.

[psmith2.0]

I agree.

I really think the iPod touch will simply grow (not literally) into this thing, over time.

If people want something larger from Apple, there's the MacBook.

At one time I thought it would be neat (and it still is...I love the idea of it). But I'm just trying to look at it with a realistic, pragmatic eye...they're already such a small sliver of the pie (Apple), going after a smaller sliver of an already small sliver of a small sliver (tablet fans/users).

I just don't see it. Could be quite wrong and they'll unveil one in two weeks

But it would be expensive, and would open up either a can of worms or a whole new "world to play in". Not sure which, for Apple (or for us, the users).

You certainly don't want them to invest a lot of time and money, only to create a new G4 Cube or iPod Hi-Fi.



They'd better be damn sure of the desire/demand level for such a thing...

[Kickaha]

Yeah. Having some exposure to the units, I just don't see the need/market for a tablet the size of a laptop. I just don't. The UMPC is about the right size, but the wrong form factor, if that makes sense. Too thick a bezel, too many buttons/D-pads taking up the front -> not enough usable screen space for the size.

[psmith2.0]

I guess if there's an outfit that could "do it right", it would be Apple...

They've certainly seemed to improve the whole idea of digital music players and smartphones.



But those are also common, everyday devices, owned and used by gazillions. There was a reason for them to wade into that.

Would Apple create a device, knowing how expensive it would probably be, that would appeal to lab/research types, and others of that background? Would people give up their full-featured notebooks for a MacBook Air-like device?

It won't be cheap, and while that doesn't seem to have hurt the MacBook Air, people can at least look at it and thing "well it's something I know" (a laptop).

Apple would, if they did some sort of tablet thingie (I keep hearing "150% larger than the iPhone), they'd have to come out of the gate swinging, with a marketing/education/adoption push like nothing we've seen from them. Because the natural leaning to have a cooler music player (or better cell phone) is already built in to so many. But something new and unfamiliar like a "tablet"? I'm not sure how that would swing, really.

Of course, they'd capitalize on the Multi-Touch thing of the iPhone and iPod touch ("if you like those devices, imagine it with a larger screen!" type of thinking). It might sell itself, but, again, how many would jump without a firm, serious push?

I don't think they could just put them out there and "hope" everyone discovered how cool they were.

But, again...it's Apple. They've considered all this, and if they decided to do it, they'd torque up that RDF thing to such an insane degree, that everyone would be thinking they needed one when it was all said and done.

They excel at that whole "me want...don't know why, but I do!" thing.

[Kickaha]

I think it's going to hinge on them successfully pushing the remote client computing lifestyle.

If a Back To My Mac client doesn't pop up for iPhone 2.0, I'm going to be pissssssssed at them for dropping the ball on a golden opportunity.

[BuonRotto]

I see touch tablets being more useful at very large sizes too, like the size of a drafting table. I do think there's a not insignificant market for some thing like Kick's describing, however, I feel it's an awkward size for all but specialized uses (medical, construction in the field, etc.). For home users, the small one is too big to fit in most pockets, but not large enough to be productive like a notebook and easily toted as that size is. The large ones are too big and bulky for most, period to be convenient. I'm thinking lab or studio environment. But that's so specialized. In the end, I think these things have tremendous potential in corporate and enterprise environments, but those are such conservative markets, who wants to be the first to build momentum, only to see competitors catch up when that market is fully burgeoning?

Mind you, I realize Microsoft's table computer thing is along the lines of what I'm describing, but for some reason they're completely missing out on the productivity value of a working environment that large. It's a novelty in the demos. Odd for them?

Apple missed the ball on AppleTV the first round. I could see them missing this too, at least at first.

[Enki]

<jumps up and down>

I still want this! From this old thread. Fits what Kick is saying to a "T"

Originally Posted by Enki 2006-04-26, 17:38 I want a tablet that's actually a tablet -- think steno pad sized. That gives you a form factor of 6.5x9.5 and 5/8" thick. 1.5lbs/680 grams. Full wireless connectivity, and auto-synching with your desktop or laptop if it knows where it is on the network--worldwide [can we say "Back To My Mac???"]. Uses your laptop/desktop on the network to get heavy duty tasks done, not quite thin client, but more X-grid/remote desktop like. Put a 9.5 to 10" widescreen touch sensitive display on it, that's bigger than the original Macintoshes had with about a 1/4" bezel and a great size weight for on the go video. Usually, but not always streamed from your own home/work machine! Gotta be able to have enough local storage to watch on a plane/train, or kids in the back seat crossing the wastes of Nebraska. A battery good for 12 hours in a reasonable conservation mode, 100% non-moving storage[we have SSDs now!]. Tons of RAM and lots of flash [SSDs again]. It's all local cache for more speed on less power draw. Killer app? - Sound recording capability and built in sound editing/voice parsing for post meeting/class processing. Farm that work out to the laptop/desktop and save battery. Now you can sit in a meeting or lecture, take time stamped notes and drive a auto-transcript generation utility. This gets even better if you make it Keynote syncable. Just import any PPT slides to Keynote and get the full auto synch for later playback/review [didn't someone mention this earlier in the thread too? Maybe it was over at AI, but...]. Yeah, there are implementation details here but you get the idea. Never again have some asshat be able to wriggle out of a statement made in a meeting or lecture. Never again have to lug something more than a pound an a half to do notes on or handle quick jottings. Killer app 2?. When sitting on the desk next to the laptop/desktop and docked for recharging have a mode that would work like an intelligent input device/second monitor simultaneously[multi-touch heaven!]. I can't begin to tell you how slick that would be for prototyping ideas, or marking up homework, etc. Throw some other cool app stuff in to boot, I'm sure some of you have some more great ideas. Bottom line is this is not a primary machine replacement, and not a repackaged form factor of anything currently in the market today. It is a new set of functionality in a form factor that could be positioned as the ultimate must have lightweight extension of the current machine into a worldwide computing asset. You are essentially taking your office/home machine's capabilities with you in the size of a steno pad. I probably won't do great for FPS dynamic graphics games, but could probably handle most other genre's just fine, and that's OK because that's FPS is not what it would be designed for. It would probably also drive a little ecosystem of accessories like on-the-go keyboards, optical drives[leverage off MBA drives?], GPS navigation and other I/O devices (universal semi-self programming home theater remote? interface) to add things some folks want that others don't. Shoot for the $499-$599 price point [just a bit more than the iPhone, just leave off the phone part]. We are't far off from the capability right now, battery life/form factor and some of the remote software design are the biggest issues right now. Apple already has the underlying technological pieces, just not stitched together in one cohesive manner.[iPhone is an awesome prototype of the feasibility to scale up this way]

[new comments added today in brackets]
Nearly two years ago and before we had an inkling of the iPhone. I still want one damnit!

[ezkcdude]

The fact of the matter is that tablets just do not make ergonomic sense. The technology for writing on a capacitive touch screen is not as good as that of a dedicated graphics tablet (ala Wacom), and without a keyboard for typing, it's just sort of useless device for anything more than "futzing" around a little bit. I would much rather see Apple make an iEee-clone than a tablet.

[Enki]

You are missing the point. These small tablets, not the full flip-screen laptop+ sized ones, go where those bigger faux tablets won't. I cannot fit in a lecture hall seat with enough room for a laptop on the sideboard. I can fit with a steno pad sized writing surface on the sideboard. I don't want to type during a lecture, I WANT to take broad-brush notes, or mark-up provided lecture notes. This includes drawing diagrams, something I consider practically impossible on a laptop on the go.

I will eviscerate anyone going to a meeting I call that opens a laptop and hides behind the screen. I guarantee you they are checking email and surfing, not participating. I don't like it in class either, I bust too many playing games or surfing walking in from the back of class while other faculty are doing the lecturing. Put the tablet flat for note-taking and no shenanigans like that, the device is forced to be a business tool or left alone.

The worst part is this way it does require a stylus for the note-taking/diagramming, but I think this isn't much problem if the stylus is conductive too. We don't need razor sharp notes, just something better resolution than a grease pencil.

[k squared]

Originally Posted by Kickaha 11"...Unfortunately, it appears that the iPhone/iPod Touch grew out of a tablet project that was scrapped. So unless Jobs has a change of heart (*snort*), the Apple tablet isn't likely to see the light of day for quite a while.

Or, fortunately? As Jobs has said in the past, there's no need for Apple to go after the tablet market (is there even a market?) when they have to pick and choose what to do because of a limited amount of resources.

PDAs and tablets are so pre-iPhone; look where we have been since the iPod was introduced. The iPhone and mobile OSX are totally new platforms to play with...we need a year or two to see how it's all going to play out.

I look at it this way: it took almost 20 years for the Mac OS to get to OSX...we won't have to wait that long for mobile OSX, but lets give it (and Apple) some time to figure it out.

[Frank777]

The iPod Touch already fills the gap the Newton was born to inhabit.

Just as the Columbus set-top box was a smokescreen for the iMac project, the so-called 'resurrected Newton' is a smokescreen that is meant to cloud Apple's forthcoming takeover of the book sales market.

[zippy]

The iPod Touch/iPhone form factor is way too small for any kind of sustained book reading. If Apple has desires to compete in that arena, and I'm not sure they do just yet, they would need to have a device about the size of a traditional paperback book.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Frank777 The iPod Touch already fills the gap the Newton was born to inhabit.

It's interesting that I hear this most from people who never used a Newton. Perhaps you did, but I'm thinking not.

The iPod touch fills the gap that the *Palm* did - limited data entry, great for data lookup, solid syncing. It's a data consumption device, not a data creation device.

The Newton was a data creation device first and foremost. It had horrible syncing (which was its primary downfall, IMO), but the screen was about the minimum size required for sketching and handwriting. The virtual keyboard on the iPhone/iPod is nice, but it takes up too much space for entry of much more than quick snippets such as numbers, txtmsgs or URLs. Unlike the Newton, I can't imagine taking notes on it.

An A5 sized device, minimum bezel, BT keyboard support = damned near the perfect remote client and on-the-go data entry/creation device.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by Kickaha An A5 sized device, minimum bezel, BT keyboard support = damned near the perfect remote client and on-the-go data entry/creation device.

For those not up on European metric sizes, that's roughly 5.83 x 8.27 inches.

[Kickaha]

LOL Sorry - think of half a sheet of 8.5x11 paper, roughly. ie, about the size of a paperback. Keep it 1/2-3/4" thick.

Love the size/form of the iPhone for a phone, couldn't imagine doing data input of any note on it.

[psmith2.0]

Apparently I drew this at some point, but I honestly don't remember it...

Not the most exciting, sexy thing...but it's just a "rough prototype".



I still dig the flip-out "kickstand"...there when you need it, pushes (and stays) in when you don't.



Found it in my "Apple mockups" folder (while looking for this, which only has a "reader" app shown...but you can write/create with it, of course).

[Capella]

I wish something like the Newton would come about from Apple now. I think the Touch/iPhone is somewhat like it- you can access documents on the go- the problem is that it lacks the ability to easily create new ones. I wouldn't want to type for a long time on one, though. Something like what Enki describes or like Paul's mockup would be a wonderful thing for many people.

Students could use it in classes where laptops aren't allowed; I know some professors who say you can't have a laptop at all, even in buildings where there's no wireless so students can't be surfing instead of working, because they assume students are going to be screwing around and not taking notes. Unfortunately, this punishes those who do take notes or want their notes in a typed format, not a hard-to-read handwritten style. I can't read my own words sometimes! But a small tablet might be more acceptable to these teachers.

Unfortunately, I can't imagine it without a stylus, and it seems pretty clear that Jobs is very much against the stylus, so I can't picture how it would work unless it was fully touch like an iPhone/Touch, and I can't picture that working too well for note-taking.

[psmith2.0]

I think Jobs might be okay with the stylus on a system that was larger and geared for input/creation.

He wasn't bonkers about it on a phone because you're just accessing stuff already there, and why keep up with a stupid stick, etc.

He'd probably relent for this sort of device. And knowing Apple, it wouldn't just be a plastic stick. They'd do something cool, unexpected and novel with it. Not sure what, but I can't imagine them just having a five-inch white or silver plastic stick that did nothing other than point/poke.

Seems like such a wasted opportunity!



Although, I could imagine the "no stylus" thing working for text and other input (drawing fine shapes, etc.) if they made the resulting lines/paths small and pen-like, and not a huge "gob of ink" representing the size of skin contacting the screen.

Maybe when the thing was in "writing" mode (a little software toggle switch at the top of the display?), even though your round, larger fingertip is what is on screen, the device knows to produce only a single, simple pencil/pen width line...letting you sit and "write" with only the tip of your index finger, like you would in wet sand or concrete, but with a nice, readable pen-like line (and not a huge quarter-inch "charcoal smudge").

Same with drawing (doodling a quick diagram or map, but not wanting huge 16-pt. strokes, but, rather, just a regular Bic pen type of line...

Death to the stylus!



BTW, on a somewhat-related note, let me make this prediction, here and now: this time next year, "touchArt" will be all the rage. Because somewhere in this SDK release (and people making apps for the current touch devices), someone will make a kick-ass Painter-like app for the iPhone and iPod touch...pressure sensitive, colors, different brushes/sizes/softness, blending/smudging, erasing, layering/building up strokes, etc.

You paint your masterpiece, save it and e-mail it to friends, upload it for your wallpaper or post it online for others to admire/critique.

You heard it here first...FingerPaint 1.0

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 BTW, on a somewhat-related note, let me make this prediction, here and now: this time next year, "touchArt" will be all the rage. Because somewhere in this SDK release (and people making apps for the current touch devices), someone will make a kick-ass Painter-like app for the iPhone and iPod touch...pressure sensitive, colors, different brushes/sizes/softness, blending/smudging, erasing, layering/building up strokes, etc. You paint your masterpiece, save it and e-mail it to friends, upload it for your wallpaper or post it online for others to admire/critique. You heard it here first...FingerPaint 1.0

The problem, as I alluded to before, is that using the stylus on a touch screen is vastly inferior to the dedicated Wacom tablet technology. Until they improve the technology to something on par with at least the Bamboo, it's just not going to be that useful.

[psmith2.0]

I'm not talking about a stylus. And I'm also not talking about creating photorealistic, detailed 8'x15' murals. Just little "color studies" and the like, or your typical "bowl of fruit" still life, or "cat in loft window" type of stuff. You're just smudging/pushing around colors, etc.

A fun, time-wasting type of app. No real competitor to Painter or Photoshop.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by ezkcdude The problem, as I alluded to before, is that using the stylus on a touch screen is vastly inferior to the dedicated Wacom tablet technology. Until they improve the technology to something on par with at least the Bamboo, it's just not going to be that useful.

What pscates said. Having a stylus that is up to par with a Wacom isn't necessary for making a useful device.

I really wish more people had used a Newton.

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 I'm not talking about a stylus. And I'm also not talking about creating photorealistic, detailed 8'x15' murals. Just little "color studies" and the like, or your typical "bowl of fruit" still life, or "cat in loft window" type of stuff. You're just smudging/pushing around colors, etc. A fun, time-wasting type of app. No real competitor to Painter or Photoshop.

So, this would be iFinger? Sounds kind of naughty . Seriously, though, you can't really do much at all without using a stylus. Sure, you can drag around icons with your fingers, but do you really think you can draw or paint anything meaningful on such a small screen?

[psmith2.0]

It's called FingerPaint, and yes...I could sit and smudge. Especially if you read earlier above (two posts up for me, I think) about controlling the stroke/path from your finger. Just like you can control the size of a brush in Photoshop (1 pixel, or something gigantic), you could set the "stroke/width" to whatever you wanted and doodle away.

Of course.

I doodle stuff constantly with a Sharpie in a 3x5 sketchpad. I would imagine it wouldn't be any big deal just to swoosh my finger around, swirl colors, etc.

Don't argue with me all night. It's coming, just accept it.

[ezkcdude]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 Don't argue with me all night. It's coming, just accept it.

I'm a believer. It will make ones of people happy.