[Anthem]

I'm not talking about other people's DRM, here. I understand them trying to keep everybody in the iTunes store.

I'm talking about stuff that's unencumbered: WMA and OGG.

Really, I'm interested in OGG. I'd like to re-rip my CD collection to something better than MP3, but in a neutral format so I can access it from any of my computers or any media players. No point, though, if I can't play it on my iPod.

It's not like it would be hard... the machine's capable. And it doesn't hurt them any to support OGG. So, whaddya think? Do I have any chance?

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Anthem I'm talking about stuff that's unencumbered:

AIFF
WAV

[Paul]

Whats wrong with straight up AAC? it is just the next version of mp3 and should be standard across media players...

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Anthem I'm talking about stuff that's unencumbered: WMA and OGG.

WMA is encumbered by its relation to a convicted software monopoly.

Ogg Vorbis (OGG is not an audio format; it's a container) is encumbered by being licensed exclusively under an anti-capitalist license alienating rights that is illegal in various countries, including Hungary.

[BarracksSi]

The only notable format Apple doesn't (and, so far, can't) support is DRM-protected WMA.

As far as Ogg goes (never knew it was such a problem internationally; I'm just way out of the loop), there are ways to play it in iTunes:
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.p...21103065300430
http://zskl.zsk.p.lodz.pl/~skali/oggvorbis.html
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/14259

So, why not rip in mp3 or AAC? Dolby's AAC sounds better at comparable bitrates anyway.

[chucker]

He was probably referring to the fact that MP3 and AAC are "patent-encumbered". Of course, for a normal user, that's entirely irrelevant.

[BarracksSi]

Patent, shmatent... I haven't cared in six years.. lol

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by chucker He was probably referring to the fact that MP3 and AAC are "patent-encumbered". Of course, for a normal user, that's entirely irrelevant.

I've never been normal... By "normal user" you mean "user of iTunes." I want my music available to me in other players, though. I don't care about patents, myself, but I do care if none of my other software will play AAC.

As far as Ogg goes (never knew it was such a problem internationally; I'm just way out of the loop), there are ways to play it in iTunes:

But not on my ipod...

So, why not rip in mp3 or AAC? Dolby's AAC sounds better at comparable bitrates anyway.

I've got it in MP3 right now, I'd like something that sounds better. AAC would fit the bill but it's not widely supported by other players because of patent restrictions.

Ogg Vorbis (OGG is not an audio format; it's a container) is encumbered by being licensed exclusively under an anti-capitalist license alienating rights that is illegal in various countries, including Hungary.

And this made me laugh. Thank you, that's classic. (Unless you were serious?)

[Luca]

Well, WAV takes up huge amounts of room, but it's well supported under Windows and Mac, and it should work with most MP3 players as well. If you're looking for something higher quality than 320 kbps MP3 with the same flexibility, that's the way I would go.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Anthem I've never been normal... By "normal user" you mean "user of iTunes." I want my music available to me in other players, though. I don't care about patents, myself, but I do care if none of my other software will play AAC.

Winamp plays AAC just fine. Including AACplus and iTunes DRM AAC.

But not on my ipod...

Well, if you want a format that plays everywhere, use something lossless or a common codec like MP3? How's that for an idea?

AAC would fit the bill but it's not widely supported by other players because of patent restrictions.

Interesting; I'd like to see where you have that information from? The exact same patents apply to MP3, yet I see MP3 almost everywhere.

And this made me laugh. Thank you, that's classic. (Unless you were serious?)

Hyperbole, but not incorrect.

[Jason]

Not wishing to hijack the thread but does iTunes play Flac files?

[intlplby]

i'd like to see a FLAC to ALAC converter... does anyone know of one?

[benkraft]

Originally Posted by chucker Winamp plays AAC just fine. Including AACplus and iTunes DRM AAC.

Hmm, really? How does that work? I just tried that on one of the files I boght from the iTMS and it won't play? Any settings I need to change?

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by chucker Interesting; I'd like to see where you have that information from? The exact same patents apply to MP3, yet I see MP3 almost everywhere.

I don't know the terms of apple's patents, but Fraunhofer has said they don't worry about people that don't make more than $10,000 a year on encoding. Plus, MP3 originally spread because it was thought to be unencumbered... Fraunhofer's patents were submarine patents. They weren't brought up until MP3 had been established as a de facto standard.

The proof's in the pudding, really. There are a lot more hardware and software players that play Vorbis than AAC. Of course, MP3 trumps both in terms of quantity, but after listening to some stuff encoded in AAC or OGG, it's really easy to tell the difference in quality. I've ripped my MP3s at 192kb, but it's just a matter of more recent formats sounding better. AAC and OGG just sound better than MP3.

Hardware players I don't care about, because I love my iPod and won't change in the forseeable future, and when I do it will almost certainly be to a more recent iPod. Software's a bigger deal, though, because I'm working on an in-house stereo system that streams music from room to room. The best software for that task supports Vorbis but not AAC. It supports Vorbis because it's unencumbered (see below).

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by chucker Ogg Vorbis (OGG is not an audio format; it's a container) is encumbered by being licensed exclusively under an anti-capitalist license alienating rights that is illegal in various countries, including Hungary.

I didn't respond to this because I thought you were joking. Turns out you weren't. I know it's properly called Ogg Vorbis, but a lot of people don't. The filename says .ogg, so that's what people are used to.

Basically, you've confused the source code and the specification. The specification is totally open and unencumbered. There are some restrictions on using their software, but not many. Their FAQ will answer it better than I ever would:

What licensing applies to the Ogg Vorbis format? The Ogg Vorbis specification is in the public domain. It is completely free for commercial or noncommercial use. That means that commercial developers may independently write Ogg Vorbis software which is compatible with the specification for no charge and without restrictions of any kind. However, the software packages we have developed are available under various free/open-source software licenses with varying allowances and restrictions. What licensing applies to the included Ogg Vorbis software? Most (but not all) of our utility software is released under the terms of the GNU GPL. The libraries and SDKs are released under our BSD-like license. Note that developers are still free to use the specification to write implementations of Ogg Vorbis licensed under other terms. We make commercial, closed source software. Can I use Ogg Vorbis at all? What licensing do I need to pay? Again, there are no licensing fees for any use of the Ogg Vorbis specification. As a commercial developer, you are free to create and sell (or give away) open or closed source implementations of Vorbis encoders, decoders, or other tools. However, if you use our software rather than writing an independent implementation, you must respect the terms of the license. Our libraries are available under our BSD-like license and can be used whole or in part by closed source applications. Are there licensing fees for distributing, selling, or streaming media in the Ogg Vorbis format? No.

http://www.vorbis.com/faq/#com

It's hard to get more business-friendly than that. Anybody that wants to can use Vorbis. They don't have to pay anything to use it (Apple has to pay Fraunhofer to use MP3 in iTunes).

Is there any reason that Apple wouldn't support this? It doesn't cost them anything. I'd even be happy with it as a plugin for iTunes, but it still wouldn't play on my iPod.

EDIT: A "BSD-Like" license essentially means the development libraries are under the same license terms as Darwin.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by benkraft Hmm, really? How does that work? I just tried that on one of the files I boght from the iTMS and it won't play? Any settings I need to change?

.m4p plug-in for Winamp

Unzip, install, restart Winamp, done. Perfectly legal since it uses QuickTime to authenticate.

[chucker]

As for Ogg Vorbis, it turns out I was under the wrong impression that it was entirely GPL. Mea culpa.

Your assertion that there's more devices that support Ogg Vorbis than devices that support AAC seems dubious, however, if you look at iPod sales numbers. They outnumber Ogg Vorbis-capable players by multiple times and have done so for years now.

[Kickaha]

I'm coming into this late, but exactly how is WMA unencumbered, and AAC (an open standard part of the MPEG-4 spec) not?? Did we all just get shifted into bizarro world here?

And I've got to say... I am *REALLY* damned amused by all the 'open source' advocates trumpeting Ogg Vorbis, and then expecting *APPLE* to come to their rescue and write a QT plugin.

OPEN. SOURCE.

Go write it yourselves, for christ's sake! The Vorbis format is available and documented, and *SO IS QUICKTIME*. Go to it! Get! Come back to us when your itch is scratched! Jeez.

For the record, there have been two Vorbis QT-plugin projects that I know of over the years... both eventually died because their creators abandoned them... and *NO ONE ELSE CARED* enough to take them up. Open source is a survival of the fittest model, no? Well....

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I'm coming into this late, but exactly how is WMA unencumbered, and AAC (an open standard part of the MPEG-4 spec) not?? Did we all just get shifted into bizarro world here?

Well, AAC has Dolby & patents; WMA has Microsoft & lawyers. Pick your two poisons of choice

I agree, as I have pointed out before, that AAC should be the format of choice for anyone. It is very flexible (I wish Apple would start supporting AACplus already!) and high-quality. Ogg Vorbis only surpasses it at high bitrates, but only to a small negligible margin.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha For the record, there have been two Vorbis QT-plugin projects that I know of over the years... both eventually died because their creators abandoned them... and *NO ONE ELSE CARED* enough to take them up. Open source is a survival of the fittest model, no? Well....

Actually, one of them has been updated to work with QuickTime 7, and at least one person from Apple did care.

As for open source, though, just to play the devil's advocate: QuickTime support makes a Vorbis-capable player not.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by chucker Actually, one of them has been updated to work with QuickTime 7, and at least one person from Apple did care.

Good! Don't get me wrong, I *want* to see OV out there. It has its own strengths, and I like choice in the market. I've just always had to roll my eyes at the FSF-wannabes who then turn and want a corporate entity to actually do the work. The whole point of OSS is that if you have an itch *YOU* can scratch it. Apple provided the plugin system so that you could easily hook into their rich framework. Ogg Vorbis is open and documented. If you want OV in QT, then frickin' just do it, and stop whining.

Got a link to the currently updated project? I'd love to see how it's doing. (or how long it lasts... )

As for open source, though, just to play the devil's advocate: QuickTime support makes a Vorbis-capable player not.

Oh, no argument there, I was only talking about QuickTime support.

I'd like to see Apple support OV in the iPods too, but I can actually see why not - they're pushing MPEG-4 everywhere as a concerted strategic move against WMV/WMA. This is *important* for *everyone*. Seriously, be honest now - which would you rather see ubiquitous in digital media: WMV or MPEG-4? Those are your two choices, pick one. If Apple supports OV (or Thedora) strongly, then it weakens the maneuver against WMV, and *that* is the real enemy. MPEG-4 is at least a documented and open format. Encumbered? Yes, somewhat. But it's not CLOSED.

Ogg et al. would be the Perfect World Scenario, but this is real life, and MS/WMV is the enemy. MPEG-4 is the practical solution for the time being.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Got a link to the currently updated project? I'd love to see how it's doing. (or how long it lasts... )

Sure.

Btw, Apple engineer post on why it broke to begin with.

Oh, no argument there, I was only talking about QuickTime support.

I'd like to see Apple support OV in the iPods too, but I can actually see why not - they're pushing MPEG-4 everywhere as a concerted strategic move against WMV/WMA. This is *important* for *everyone*. [..] Ogg et al. would be the Perfect World Scenario, but this is real life, and MS/WMV is the enemy. MPEG-4 is the practical solution for the time being.

I wholeheartedly agree.

[Kickaha]

Cool beans, thanks. My whiner OSS friends can eat crow now.

[initialsBB]

Originally Posted by Kickaha This is *important* for *everyone*.

post of the day !!

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I'm coming into this late, but exactly how is WMA unencumbered, and AAC (an open standard part of the MPEG-4 spec) not?? Did we all just get shifted into bizarro world here? And I've got to say... I am *REALLY* damned amused by all the 'open source' advocates trumpeting Ogg Vorbis, and then expecting *APPLE* to come to their rescue and write a QT plugin. OPEN. SOURCE. Go write it yourselves, for christ's sake! The Vorbis format is available and documented, and *SO IS QUICKTIME*. Go to it! Get! Come back to us when your itch is scratched! Jeez.

Sorry if I didn't explain fully. I didn't mean to suggest that WMA was unencumbered, I was just saying that the iPod could easily play un-DRMed WMA files if Apple wanted.

As for the rest, I guess I wasn't clear again. I'm only interested in my iPod, not Quicktime as a whole. Is there a plugin system for the iPod? Not that I've heard of.

I end up using a good bit of open source software, but I'm no zealot. I'm definitely not a FSF type. I'd pay cold hard cash for a legit plugin (closed source is fine) that would allow my iPod to play Ogg Vorbis (and iTunes to manage it).

So maybe that's what I should be asking for? Plugin-ability for the iPod?

EDIT: BTW, I really don't think that allowing the iPod to play Vorbis is going to really hurt the war against WMA/WMV. If anything, having other legit codecs out there HELPS in the war against WMA/WMV.

[Kickaha]

In theory, I agree with you. In reality, I think that anything takes the focus away from pushing MPEG-4/H.264/AAC as hard as possible as a UNIFIED front against WMV/WMA is only going to make MS happy. "See how fractured the rest of the market is? Let us give you the one unified solution."

MPEG-4 as a container gives a huge variety of open plugin codec possibilities. (QT was the model for the MPEG-4 format.) If we can get MPEG-4 to thrash WMV, *THEN* the codec world is opened up, and the Ogg family can step right on up.

But yes, this is harder to do for dedicated playback devices that are closed units, like the iPod.

Unfortunately, I don't see the iPod offering WMA support... and for good reason. The more WMA files there are out there, the more it looks like a viable format moving forward. It is in all our best interests to not have that happen. Apple is in a unique position right now, with the runaway most popular music player, to migrate millions of users away from WMA and to AAC... ie, part of the MPEG-4 family. MP3 support is fine, because it's quickly turning into a legacy codec, and also because it isn't part of WMV.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Anthem Sorry if I didn't explain fully. I didn't mean to suggest that WMA was unencumbered, I was just saying that the iPod could easily play un-DRMed WMA files if Apple wanted.

Sure. It could also play DRMed WMA files if Apple wanted. But why would they want to? How would that fit into their "open standards" PR that they've been doing for about five years now? QuickTime 6 anyone?

I'd pay cold hard cash for a legit plugin (closed source is fine) that would allow my iPod to play Ogg Vorbis (and iTunes to manage it).

So install Linux on it. It's free, it plays Ogg Vorbis in real time, and it will do thousands of other things hardly anyone cares about.

Plugin-ability for the iPod?

That would be nice, but have limited use, and it's not going to happen either way. Even if Apple wanted to -- which I doubt they would -- , I have doubts that PortalPlayer would let them.

EDIT: BTW, I really don't think that allowing the iPod to play Vorbis is going to really hurt the war against WMA/WMV.

Well, I do.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Unfortunately, I don't see the iPod offering WMA support... and for good reason. The more WMA files there are out there, the more it looks like a viable format moving forward. It is in all our best interests to not have that happen. Apple is in a unique position right now, with the runaway most popular music player, to migrate millions of users away from WMA and to AAC... ie, part of the MPEG-4 family. MP3 support is fine, because it's quickly turning into a legacy codec, and also because it isn't part of WMV.

I don't necessarily blame them. WMA is being pushed by a competitor that wants to destroy them.

Vorbis isn't in the same boat, IMO.

You have this idea that MP4 is going to thrash WMA, but it's never going to happen. Yeah, it's better, but since when has that mattered? The fact of the matter is that Microsoft is going to make WMA / WMV the default in everything it does. The sheer number of uninformed consumers out there means that WMA will always have the numerical advantage.

THAT means that we need as many strong alternatives as possible. If we don't want WMA to win (and I sure don't), then we need to show that it's not a standard. Microsoft is sure as heck never going to recognize MPEG-4 / AAC as a standard, even if it's the best hands down.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kickaha MPEG-4 as a container gives a huge variety of open plugin codec possibilities. (QT was the model for the MPEG-4 format.) If we can get MPEG-4 to thrash WMV, *THEN* the codec world is opened up, and the Ogg family can step right on up.

Indeed. Why, exactly, is the open-source world trying to establish two additional container formats, Ogg and Matroska? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to anyone to extend MPEG-4? That's one of the things where open-source goes from beneficial and good™ to ridiculous and quixotic -- if not downright disadvantageous.

Originally Posted by Anthem Vorbis isn't in the same boat, IMO.

I think Kickaha's "fracturing" explains the problem quite well.

In order to compete with something boldly and (hopefully) successfully, you want to agree on one choice, rather than providing lots of different, confusing, hardly distinguishable options.

[Anthem]

Originally Posted by chucker Indeed. Why, exactly, is the open-source world trying to establish two additional container formats, Ogg and Matroska?

There is no "open-source world." A few people think that ogg is the wrong approach, and they're doing MKV/MKA. Nobody's using it.

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to anyone to extend MPEG-4?

They can't, because of the way patent licensing works. EDIT: I know you'll jump on that statement, so let me explain. Patent licenses often have different terms for "user" and "distributor." That categorically rules out open source, because every user is, by definition, qualified to be a distributor. Simply "royalty-free use" isn't enough (which Microsoft has understood and tried to use to their advantage on numerous occasions).