[Satchmo]

I'm surprised this hasn't garnered discussion here yet. Reports over at AI, say it's on track for sometime in early 2008.

I'm just wondering if this is overkill. No, you can't use a stylus on the iPhone, but doesn't the iPhone handle pretty much all of one's PDA needs? And if not, could a simple new app just be added as a software upgrade?

If this turns out to be true, it just looks like milking the whole multi-touch coolness feature. But not owning either iPhone or iPod Touch, I'm not prepared to say it's gimmicky. But is it really more intutitive or faster than a scroll wheel or thumb dial?

[psmith2.0]

That Fran441 guy will certainly be thrilled at this news (unless he's one of those unreasonable "it was better back in the old days" types, and automatically poo-poos the notion of a "new, OS X-era Newton".

[turtle]

I'd be in the market for something like this. If they allowed third party apps it would be even better! I'm cool with the multi-touch, but I think a "pen" would be more effective for certain tasks.

This is coming from a 10+ year PDA user.

[BuonRotto]

iPhone and iPod touch are so close, why intro yet another discrete product? It would seem contradictory to have a convergence device like the iPhone, for example, not have these features as well. I suspect any such project will get rolled into the regular iPod division and dealt with accordingly. If this kind of thing is sture, it's probably a reflection of how ideas are hatched there: having a team specializing on an aspect of design, then bringing it into the fold when it's ready.

[jeff184]

Originally Posted by BuonRotto iPhone and iPod touch are so close, why intro yet another discrete product? It would seem contradictory to have a convergence device like the iPhone, for example, not have these features as well. I suspect any such project will get rolled into the regular iPod division and dealt with accordingly. If this kind of thing is sture, it's probably a reflection of how ideas are hatched there: having a team specializing on an aspect of design, then bringing it into the fold when it's ready.

what the hell are you tlaing about you tell me to go outside you dumbass and look you spend your whol time here stupdi mac fanboy of my ugly fac eof cucker ass.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by BuonRotto iPhone and iPod touch are so close, why intro yet another discrete product?

^^

I don't think the product described would ever see store shelves. The iPhone is so close to a full fledged computer, anything bigger that isn't a real Mac doesn't fit...

[Bryson]

Hmmm...the evidence they present is more than a little shaky: basically it's all hinged on a off-the-cuff remark by Steve in 2004, that could easily have referred to the iPhone, and "sources" - which means "stuff we made up in our fevered imagination".

[psmith2.0]

I'm trying to think - other than the larger screen - what a Newton '08 (they should call it iContact) would bring or allow that the iPhone couldn't, via some software updates?



To me, the iPhone seems like The Big Daddy (since it does everything: phone, surf, e-mail, iPod, camera, widgets, YouTube, etc.). The iPod touch is an offshoot of that. With this new Newtwon (nN) be a feature-lacking offshoot as well, or will it pack more than the iPhone (minus the phone part). Maybe this will be the true "iPhone minus the phone" that everyone was hoping the iPod touch would be.



Here's hoping it allows for on-the-go calendar/to-do entering!

I say just keep the iPhone and iPod touch and enhance both with software...especially the iPhone.

[Wrao]

that's the thing, the iPhone succeeds because it basically covers all the bases that a tablet or PDA would cover, but it does it in a cell phone sized package. But, then again, Steve recently did say there are 2 new iPhone models in the works. Perhaps one is iPhone nano and one is iPhone Newton....

[psmith2.0]

I'm gonna be pissed if they come out with an iPhone that offers more capability (arbitrarily tied to software, no less) than the one I have.

As long as the iPhone - being the granddaddy of all this Multi-Touch stuff - gets the same software and functions (where it makes sense) as all the offshoots it spawns, I'll be happy and won't squawk.

[BuonRotto]

Well, eventually, there will be an iPhone with not only better hardware specs, but better/more/extra features than the one we have now. Still, yeah, I can see sort of an "executive" iPhone that has all the PDA bells and whistles I don't particular miss but others seem to need if they're going to make the jump. To me, they can sell another iPhone that arbitrarily has more features or software than this current one. It's just a question of price and market positioning.

[Wrao]

I wonder if maybe the macbook thin rumors and the iPhone big rumors are for the same device. Ultra thin/light macbook with multitouch functions integrated somehow(the trackpad for instance) ..... nah, sounds unlikely.

[Kickaha]

A5 size, WiMax, 2GB of RAM, Cocoa.

Heaven.

[BuonRotto]

I think there's a lot of sizes in between a MacBook and an iPhone, none of which are convenient or useful. I'm very much of the sentiment that either you go pocket-sized, or you go A3/letter paper size and everything else in between is either too big or too small for what you want.

[MAJB]

Who would be interested in a PDA that's not a phone?

[Kickaha]

Clarify: phone form factor, or ability to use phone networks for calls and data?

Because I'd be perfectly happy keeping a BT earpiece in for calls and foregoing the phone form factor.

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Clarify: phone form factor, or ability to use phone networks for calls and data? Because I'd be perfectly happy keeping a BT earpiece in for calls and foregoing the phone form factor.

I would be very surprised if Apple released a product with phone capabilities and expected users to use an earpiece or external gizmo to use said phone capabilities. I agree that the mystery big PDA/multitouch tablet concept would be a pretty nifty device, but I highly doubt that Apple would incorporate a phone into it if you couldn't just put it up to your ear and start talking.

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by pscates2.0 As long as the iPhone - being the granddaddy of all this Multi-Touch stuff - gets the same software and functions (where it makes sense) as all the offshoots it spawns, I'll be happy and won't squawk.

Considering they arbitrarily crippled the iPod touch, I wouldn't bet on that.

[psmith2.0]

I agree. I don't ever imagine the iPhone (or any phone from Apple) getting bigger or bulkier than the current iPhone. If anything, it'll go the other way over time (like everything else): thinner, less rounded, less bezel, etc.

That's a perfect, comfortable size. Going up (and taking it out of your hands, or making it suddenly feel large and unwieldy while in your hands, just seems like going backwards).

Originally Posted by Shades of Blue Considering they arbitrarily crippled the iPod touch, I wouldn't bet on that.

No, they can arbitrarily cripple everything else but the iPhone. That's the top-rung monkey...it gets all the goodies/software.

[Reid]

Yeah, my gut reaction to this one is a big fat . I think Apple made the right move canning the Newton way back when. The only reason Palm even exists today it the fact that they bought back Handspring and the Treo. The stand-alone PDA is on its last legs, and bringing back the Newton name would just be a marketing catastrophe. And adding 50% to the size just makes the thing unpocketable, which to me defeats the purpose of having anything smaller than a notebook.

I'm still blown away by the software-crippling of the iPod Touch. That thing is so close to being the PDA of a lot of people's dreams... simply adding direct calendar and notes input would go a long way toward justifying its existence. As it is, it seems like little more than a tool to upsell customers toward the iPhone.

[Paranoid666au]

Originally Posted by Wrao that's the thing, the iPhone succeeds because it basically covers all the bases that a tablet or PDA would cover, but it does it in a cell phone sized package. But, then again, Steve recently did say there are 2 new iPhone models in the works. Perhaps one is iPhone nano and one is iPhone Newton....

iPhone 3G and iPhone nano




This palm top multi touch would struggle to find a market. Most people will go for the iPhone, which will get more powerful and feature rich over time. Maybe apple will add touch capabilities to the Mac Book / MB Pro. I can definitely see them doing that, maybe they'll get rid of the hard keyboard all together. Yea I know all you touch typers would freak but if the keyboard is overlaid on the screen your looking at, then maybe that would work. It would be like typing on a big iPhone with all your fingers and don't worry about typos because it auto corrects. With flash RAM and better batteries, laptops will get thinner, so it be almost like touch typing on a sheet of glass, hmmm.

EDIT: No doutb Apple does a lot of experimenting and has all these defferent projects going. I'm sure they've experimented with many different concepts and worked out what works best and what works best for Apple too.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Wrao I would be very surprised if Apple released a product with phone capabilities and expected users to use an earpiece or external gizmo to use said phone capabilities. I agree that the mystery big PDA/multitouch tablet concept would be a pretty nifty device, but I highly doubt that Apple would incorporate a phone into it if you couldn't just put it up to your ear and start talking.

Why? Plop an EDGE or 3G card in your laptop. Same thing. It's just another network, after all.

I mean seriously - why should I have to hold a unit to my head to talk on the phone? It's just voice being transmitted as data... like any computer can do... the only thing special about a digital cell phone is that the network is proprietary and closed.

A digital cell phone is just a very stupid computer with a single network tap, and an extremely limited interface.

The iPhone shows that you can have a pretty darned smart little computer in that form factor, with other networks as well. Oh, and a *real interface*, one that isn't limited to ZOMG a number keypad.

The next step is getting people to realize it doesn't have to be just a phone.

Point being: there's no technological reason why *any* computer can't be your phone, and no reason why you can't use *any* computer to get onto the cell network for data access. Form factor and functionality are no longer tied together by anything but business models of lock-in, and people's limited expectations.

You shouldn't have to hold Device X up to your face to use it as a phone, when BT headsets are available.

[Electric Monk]

Screen Resolution

Appleinsider says a 720x480 screen but I'm speculating about more useful screen resolutions:

Ok the iPhone has a 3.5" screen at 480x320, 163 dpi. If we go for a 7" screen, that is literally doubling the size of the iPhone, we get a resolution of 960x640.

Late model Newton's used a 6" screen, but Newton II would be more screen on the body then a MessagePad 2100 so a similar sized device overall.

I think that's too low a resolution as I consider 1024x768 to be pretty much the bottom floor if Newton II is to be usable. However I don't think we're limited to 163 dpi with resolution independence so what if we take a bold step forward… 247 dpi.

247 dpi works out to a resolution of 1440x960 on a 7" screen and 720x480 on the iPhone/iPod Touch Revision B or C or whatever, as I imagine they'll seek to match dpi eventually.

Now that's a high dpi but Hitachi has a 2.9" 800x480 panel for Japanese cellphones, so this is doable.

You could go with a 6" screen at 1200x800 with a dpi of 240 which would also work well. That would work out to about 700x460, 239 dpi on the iPhone's 3.5" screen. If we seek to match dpi and aspect ratio across the two families.

If you wanted a 5.5" screen you could go with 1152x768 with a dpi of 251—still possible. That would mean we're back to 720x480 & 247 dpi on the iPhone.

I think either the 7" screen (really push it) or the 5.5" screen is the way to go. Of course the rumoured 720x480 screen is probably more likely, but I wouldn't consider that useful.

My 12" PB has 1024x768, and I would be unwilling to use anything smaller in a long term use device. Check out the Nokia N800 tablet thingy and try spending a while staring at it, the resolution (800x480) feels like a big limiting factor IMO.

And the N800, incidentally, has a pretty high dpi of its own: 800x480 resolution, 4.1" (or 4.3) diagonal, ~225 dpi. (I really don't know how Jobs managed to claim the iPhone has this world class dpi screen. It's a great screen to be sure, but there are better.)


Positioning
So that the categories are all clear:

At the pocket level we have smartphones using a mobile embedded operating system. This is the Treo or (potentially) the iPhone. It's the Swiss army device designed to replace phone/iPod/camera/PDA and is mostly about content, communication, and scheduling. The evolution of the PDA into the smartphone, and now into multimedia (or, the PDA/multimedia Sony Clie crossed with a phone).

Technically speaking stand alone PDAs live here as well, but the smartphone has taken over the PDA market.


At the freakishly large pocket level (yep, some people made pockets big enough for a Newton), or small bag level, we have:

-Newton (5-6" screen): Small tablet using an embedded operating system. A modern version is one step above an Internet Tablet, as it can do things decently (at least based on Newton's versus their competitors way back then, or Newton II versus stuff now), but sideways from an UMPC as it uses an embedded operating system instead of a full PC one.

-Limited Tablet (4-6" screen) The Nokia N800 & Intel's new Mobile Internet Device category which is—as far as I can tell—a UMPC running embedded operating systems. Basically this what you get when you stick a weak processor with an embedded system. Internet browsing type things with limited ability to do other work.

-UMPC (6-7" screens) : Small tablet using a full operating system (should be using an embedded operating system). Useful, but the full Windows operating system on a small screen, limited power device blows, and battery life is weak.

-eMate: Miniature laptop using an embedded operating system, like a useful Palm Foleo. Also see Asus's EEE.

-Subnotebooks: Miniature to tiny laptop, with limited computing resources, using a full operating system. Notably expensive.


Above that is the usual line-up of laptops & the larger tablets.

Note how it appears that the Newton slot (or the eMate slot, IMO) is awesome? That's because no one else has managed to do it right either making it too slow (N800) or too hard to use (UMPC with full Windows OS), and none with the 24+ hour battery life of the original Newton.



Mac Tablet?
We should consider the 10" tablet spot too:

I think Apple cares much more about scaling up the iPhone then it does about scaling down a laptop. The UMPC/small Tablet market has potential (I'd argue the eMate/Foleo/Asus EEE section has potential too, but the rumour is for a slate tablet), the 10"+ tablet market has gone nowhere.

If one is worried about usefulness, consider resolution, and ignore the rumoured one. I have 1024x768 on my 12" PB and that is—just barely—enough. If one were to keep at least that resolution but at 5.5-7" you wind up with the same amount of space, looking much sharper. The pinch & resolution independence is where this comes in as you could zoom in and out with no loss of detail.

Now sure this seems like a Mac, but it's (probably) running Mobile OS X and using Multitouch with maybe 32GB of flash. At the core this the next generation of Apple products, using Mobile OS X's interface (instead of the traditional OS X one), with programs from OS X requiring both porting (say to a new version of Cocoa, as Shipley proposed) and then a complete user interface redesign for Multitouch.

If one were to make this 10" it would simply look like a Mac Tablet (which, given the tiny Windows Tablet market, is a miniscule target audience). People would expect OS X (with multitouch bolted on, I imagine) and the full multi-GB Leopard install and Photoshop and whatever. This is the exact same mistake UMPCs make.

Now they could use Mobile OS X at 10" but I simply don't believe that people would accept such a large computer not running regular OS X (why I can't do Photoshop? Not ported. Why can't I play my games? Not ported. Etc…). It's just too close in size to a laptop. Especially if Apple ever expands their laptop line-up (With a 11" MacBook Nano, a 13" MacBook Pro, and a 15" MacBook. Please Jobs? Probably depends on if their sales keep expanding).

Apple would want this to replace your laptop, I imagine, but at the same time be acceptable to carry with your laptop if you must. 10" doesn't do that, but 5.5-7" does. People carrie(d) Newton's with their laptops, but I don't think many people carry their Windows Tablet with their laptop.

At 5.5-7" this is a Knowledge Navigator using Mobile OS X that lasts for 24 hours on one charge (well, before we account for wireless). At that size people wouldn't expect regular OS X, and so the shininess of Mobile OS X & Multitouch along with the basics like iWork and iLife (perhaps minus GarageBand) beat not having Photoshop.

I personally would love to see the Newton name come back. Alternatively it's not an iPhone or an iPod so iPhone Pro or iPad or whatever are out, and we don't want people to think this is a Mac so MacPad or MacTablet or whatever are out. How about Navigator, or iNavigator, or even iNewton .



Not A PDA
Obviously it's not a PDA. PDAs are dead because of smartphones (heck back in 1995 when Palm's PDAs came out adding a cell chip was the smart move… it just took Palm a really long time to figure that out). So no, the standalone PDA space is death and rightly so. That spot can be filled by the iPhone and/or iPod Touch as soon as an SDK is released.

The Newton was working towards being much more than just PDA, which is why Palm's PDAs kicked its ass at being a PDA as all Palm Pilots ever wanted to be were PDAs.

This is the Newton II, basically, and as such it seems roughly equivalent to a UMPC (noticeably, though, UMPCs run the full version of Windows while Newton II would be running the embedded operating system the iPhone uses, Mobile OS X) or a small tablet—though that's really all a UMPC is.

What do you do on your laptop? Word processing, business software, email, surf the web, multimedia, limited multimedia manipulation, games. Note that a Foleo or a Nokia N800, both similar in concept, manage to fail at a number of these things. A UMPC can do it, but who wants to use full-on Windows on something like that? Ugh.

This can do anything a Mac could do, minus CPU/GPU power. So Photoshop is out, but iPhoto is in. Final Cut Pro is out, iMovie '08 (ultra light version) is in. Etc…

I actually think this might work better as an eMate type thing (or think of it like the Foleo done right) with a real keyboard. However the rumour is for a slate tablet.

Given Mobile OS X & Multitouch it seems clear that this would very much fall in the Newton's category.

Like the common knock against the Palm Foleo you basically have to be able to use Newton II to replace your laptop for everything short of high-end CPU/GPU stuff. That shouldn't be too hard. But there also needs to be a reason to push this, like say 24 hours of battery or eBooks or something.

Basically: Why should I carry Newton II (+iPhone, even) when I could carry a MacBook and an iPhone?

So it really does have to do everything a regular laptop would, minus CPU/GPU stuff, and do it better. Better is multitouch, I'd argue, better is 24 hours of battery life, better is a screen sharp enough to read eBooks comfortably off, better is a 3G card slot for EV-DO or UMTS, etc….

Heck if I could buy this and a keyboard, well that's smaller, cheaper, lighter than my laptop, cheaper than a subnotebook, and has way better battery life. It runs all the same programs I'd usually run (even low end games, like DEFCON) and if I could offload tasks (dumb terminal style) to my home machine and get results back that would be pretty cool, indeed.

Battery life, battery life, multitouch, and oh yeah… battery life. If this does 4 hours, forget it. If it does 12 or more… bingo!

[Wrao]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Why? Plop an EDGE or 3G card in your laptop. Same thing. It's just another network, after all. I mean seriously - why should I have to hold a unit to my head to talk on the phone? It's just voice being transmitted as data... like any computer can do... the only thing special about a digital cell phone is that the network is proprietary and closed. A digital cell phone is just a very stupid computer with a single network tap, and an extremely limited interface. The iPhone shows that you can have a pretty darned smart little computer in that form factor, with other networks as well. Oh, and a *real interface*, one that isn't limited to ZOMG a number keypad. The next step is getting people to realize it doesn't have to be just a phone. Point being: there's no technological reason why *any* computer can't be your phone, and no reason why you can't use *any* computer to get onto the cell network for data access. Form factor and functionality are no longer tied together by anything but business models of lock-in, and people's limited expectations. You shouldn't have to hold Device X up to your face to use it as a phone, when BT headsets are available.

Sure, but

If they are going to market it as part of the iPhone line( as per the speculation of their being 2 new iPhone models in production)

[Reid]

1440x960 on a 7" screen -- and you think that would be usable?

Sorry, but at a certain point icons, etc, have to have a certain minimum physical size, regardless of the dpi of your screen. Especially on a multi-touch system, where you have to rely on your fingers to manipulate what's on the screen. The icons & controls on the iPhone at 160dpi are about as small as they can get while still being usable by the average adult's hands. All a higher dpi is going to do is improve readability of text at very small sizes--it's not going to give you more widgets on the screen to manipulate.

In order to do iPhoto/iMovie type things on a multi-touch tablet, it needs to be physically large enough to fit all the necessary widgets into place. Even at 10" you'd be hard-pressed to do that, regardless of resolution. And in order to successfully use most office/productivity applications, you would need to be able to overlay something resembling a full-size keyboard, which would take up half the screen at least.

I think you're asking way too much of this supposed device or line of devices. I'd much rather see a multi-touch layer on top of regular OS X for things like photo- and video-editing apps than a larger, not-quite-pocketable iPhone on steroids.

[jouster]

Originally Posted by Bryson Hmmm...the evidence they present is more than a little shaky: basically it's all hinged on a off-the-cuff remark by Steve in 2004, that could easily have referred to the iPhone, and "sources" - which means "stuff we made up in our fevered imagination".

That's not their evidence; There they're just noting that Jobs has previously (i.e. pre-multi-touch) addressed and discounted the possibility.

[BuonRotto]

Originally Posted by Reid I think you're asking way too much of this supposed device or line of devices. I'd much rather see a multi-touch layer on top of regular OS X for things like photo- and video-editing apps than a larger, not-quite-pocketable iPhone on steroids.

++

People were already whining about what you couldn't do on the iPhone before it came out. Now people are realizing that, save some silly omissions like adding calendar appointments, there's a lot you shouldn't do on a really small screen. It's the inherent problem with anything that lies between notebook and pocket sizes. It's not big enough, even with a high-dpi screen and resolution independence, to do really substantial work, and it's not small enough to make casual or routine stuff convenient. The size problem isn't due to size, it's due a lack of real purpose at a given size. What goes between writing papers, editing images and manipulating files (that a notebook does) and checking email, making phone calls and making appointments? The scope of the device is ill-defined and until there is some clear role for a device that size, beyond, say, a portable DVD player, it's never going to be a good market to hitch your wagon to. Not even Apple can design something around that.

[ronmexico]

I fail to see the point of a Newton, given all that is out now.

[Kickaha]

Maybe that no unit shipping now has surpassed it?

It's sad. The iPhone is closest - with 3rd party app support, I'd call it done, but...

[Escher]

I think the iPhone is reasonably close to a Newton. We just switched our phone lines to at&t from T-Mobile in anticipation of getting my wife an iPhone.

The area where the iPhone is still lacking, IMO, is data input. Can you (easily) update your calendar and contacts on the iPhone and sync the new data back to iCal and Address Book (or even better, an Entourage server) on your Mac? I think not! Of course, as others have pointed out, an Apple software update for the iPhone could potentially solve this problem overnight.

Until I can easily input and change data that is stored on an iPhone, I'm not getting one for myself. My iPod nano already stores and displays my calendar and contact data -- at a lower cost than the iPhone and without monthly charges.