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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2020-04-18, 09:21

I agree, the entry level iPad, and iPhone are a good move, and make the brand more attractive again. Any brand without these types of products will see a downward trend in sales, because nobody starting out has that kind of budget unless they grew up with a silver spoon in their mouth. If you don’t get people interested they won’t stay or move upmarket with your brand. Now they need to bring back an entry level Mac Mini at $599. Stick an AMD Ryzen APU in there and you have a great entry level Machine.

I’m sure iPad Pro, and iPhone Pro , iMac Pro, MacBook Pros are wonderful, but most people don’t need them, and don’t feel the need to buy as social status symbols. There was a time when I would buy those types of products, but not anymore.

Now Apple needs to bring this new energy to the software team. Slow things down, quality over quantity. Bring an end to the random unrecoverable sleep syndrome (screen won’t get a signal after extended sleep), and lots of other nonsense.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-18, 09:33

I’m all for killing the yearly, on-the-clock updates and, instead, focus on stabilizing/solidifying the stuff they already have. There doesn’t need to be a half-baked “feature orgy” every 12 months when history has shown that things don’t level out/get stable/reliable for many until months after that initial release.

At this point they seem to be chasing stuff/gimmicks nobody is really asking for, just to have something to list in the “new features” column every year. I’d rather see one solid, dialed-in OS release every 18-24 months than one iffy, pain-in-the-ass one every 12 months, Just Because. I don’t even think anyone is truly asking for/demanding yearly releases. Now that they’re free and available via download, they’re not anything anyone has to budget for or take time to go out and buy and go through some dedicated installation process as was the case years ago. Just release the new OS when it’s ready and more dialed-in.

Here we are, mid-April, and I still haven’t installed Catalina and have no plans to until I quit hearing the horror stories. And I definitely won’t be installing macOS Compton or whatever they call it come fall.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2020-04-18, 11:19

Still on 10.14 myself, and even it two years later still has issues, which I'm sure are still unresolved in 10.15. I also have some older apps, which I like that aren't supported in 10.15, so no need to upgrade until 10.14 support ends.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-18, 11:48

I’m not as adventurous and “up for the challenge” of bug/gremlin hunting. My patience for hassles and aggravation is at non-existent levels, so these days I have much more of a “if it ain’t broke...” outlook. Mojave is (mostly) a joy, and I’ve yet to hear one thing making me feel like I’m somehow missing out by not installing Catalina.

10 years ago, I was a day one adopter. Screw that! Those days are long gone for me. Even on iOS, I’ll wait at least 3-5 days On the major yearly release just to make sure there’s nothing catastrophic and brick-making present. I do install the intermediate point updates within 1-2 days because they typically fix/improve things and - knock on wood - I’ve never had a problem doing that. But the biggies, I do some waiting/reading (it’s so hard to go backwards, I only want to go forward when I feel like it’s safe).

And since I’m basically tech support/answer desk for all my Apple-owning friends and family, you can bet your ass I make them all wait until I’ve updated, lived with it for a week or so and deem it “safe to proceed”. I hate fiddling with my own stuff; not about to do it for 8-9 others just because they get an itchy download trigger finger. I tell folks if they download on day one, against my advice and it hits the fan, they’re on their own. I’m not going to come over and spend hours trying to work a miracle. I just don’t have it in me anymore.

That seems to do the trick, because they know I mean it.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-04-18 at 12:01.
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chucker
 
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2020-04-18, 14:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Now they need to bring back an entry level Mac Mini at $599. Stick an AMD Ryzen APU in there and you have a great entry level Machine.
Very few people want an entry-level desktop these days, though.

The Mac mini is kind of still interesting for some niche use cases like sticking it somewhere in the living room as an ersatz Apple TV, or putting it in a server farm as a build machine. But the 2005-era proposition of "we'll price it $499 so it'll get people interested in the Mac platform" doesn't make sense today.

A $799 MacBook Air with a Pentium/Celeron (a.k.a. low-budget Intel Core) might. A headless desktop, though? Nah.
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chucker
 
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2020-04-18, 14:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I’m all for killing the yearly, on-the-clock updates and, instead, focus on stabilizing/solidifying the stuff they already have. There doesn’t need to be a half-baked “feature orgy” every 12 months when history has shown that things don’t level out/get stable/reliable for many until months after that initial release.
Yeah.

With this year's cycle, they seem to have moved a lot more features to smaller releases, perhaps because they anticipated that the major release would be even reliable if they put all of those in. Just look at this support article: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT210642

Almost every single point release of Catalina adds features! And we already know so will the next one, 10.15.5; the battery management stuff is coming.

I think that's good. Leave the major release for big architectural changes.

But, regardless of that, they need to work on the quality. A situation where people only consider Apple OS releases reliable in the few months before summer right before the cycle starts all over again is bad, especially for a premium brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
At this point they seem to be chasing stuff/gimmicks nobody is really asking for, just to have something to list in the “new features” column every year. I’d rather see one solid, dialed-in OS release every 18-24 months than one iffy, pain-in-the-ass one every 12 months, Just Because. I don’t even think anyone is truly asking for/demanding yearly releases. Now that they’re free and available via download, they’re not anything anyone has to budget for or take time to go out and buy and go through some dedicated installation process as was the case years ago. Just release the new OS when it’s ready and more dialed-in.
Annual may indeed just be too rapid, but I don't know about gimmick. Not every feature is for everyone, sure.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2020-04-18, 15:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Very few people want an entry-level desktop these days, though.

The Mac mini is kind of still interesting for some niche use cases like sticking it somewhere in the living room as an ersatz Apple TV, or putting it in a server farm as a build machine. But the 2005-era proposition of "we'll price it $499 so it'll get people interested in the Mac platform" doesn't make sense today.

A $799 MacBook Air with a Pentium/Celeron (a.k.a. low-budget Intel Core) might. A headless desktop, though? Nah.
I still know plenty of people that want an entry level computer, small business network setups for example. An iMac is overkill for that application, when a Mac Mini and basic $100 screen will do just fine.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-18, 16:02

But what if they could create a low-cost iMac for those scenarios, with a good-enough display, etc.? For $799ish? Would that be an attractive proposition for people? Not having to go buy some mismatched display, the right cable, etc. There is beauty and purpose in the AIO thing, it's just a shame Apple can't figure out how to make a well-under $1,000 model that doesn't come across like a total joke of a turd. But I don't think they're looking to play in that sandbox...they've had plenty of time to do it, and then haven't.

Honestly, I'm kinda surprised the Mac mini is still around. But it goes about 38 years between updates, so...

The trick, I guess, is finding yourself needing one about four days after they are updated. Otherwise you're looking at buying 2-3 year-old specs/features/performance at the full price they came with upon introduction. That's always irked me. If you're not going to update stuff on a reasonable, somewhat predictable schedule, maybe throw folks a bone on the pricing after 18-24 months of silence/no movement? Knock $50-100 or so off so that buying one, two-plus years after it was introduced, doesn't feel like a complete screw-job. I'll maybe take it in the shorts a little, but come on...there is a limit.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-04-18 at 16:12.
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chucker
 
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2020-04-18, 17:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I still know plenty of people that want an entry level computer, small business network setups for example. An iMac is overkill for that application, when a Mac Mini and basic $100 screen will do just fine.
Right, that use case still exists, but less so than a decade ago — offices, too, have been moving to laptops: lower power draw, and more flexibility regarding WFH and meeting rooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
But what if they could create a low-cost iMac for those scenarios, with a good-enough display, etc.? For $799ish? Would that be an attractive proposition for people? Not having to go buy some mismatched display, the right cable, etc. There is beauty and purpose in the AIO thing, it's just a shame Apple can't figure out how to make a well-under $1,000 model that doesn't come across like a total joke of a turd. But I don't think they're looking to play in that sandbox...they've had plenty of time to do it, and then haven't.
Yeah, well, there's a lot of things they could do.

I mean, we started out talking about the iPhone SE, and $399 is little for an iPhone. But for a phone? Nope! The Nokia 2.3 is $130, runs Android 10, has almost no bezel, face unlock, and even some things people might miss on the iPhone, such as a micro-SD slot and, yes, a headphone jack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Honestly, I'm kinda surprised the Mac mini is still around. But it goes about 38 years between updates, so...
I can't help but think it went so long because they had almost written it off, but some manager fought to bring it back (with not quite the same purpose/focus as it originally had).

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
The trick, I guess, is finding yourself needing one about four days after they are updated. Otherwise you're looking at buying 2-3 year-old specs/features/performance at the full price they came with upon introduction. That's always irked me. If you're not going to update stuff on a reasonable, somewhat predictable schedule, maybe throw folks a bone on the pricing after 18-24 months of silence/no movement? Knock $50-100 or so off so that buying one, two-plus years after it was introduced, doesn't feel like a complete screw-job. I'll maybe take it in the shorts a little, but come on...there is a limit.
Yeah, that's not great.

Right now, it's hard to say if Apple is waiting on Intel to make them a fitting CPU (or preparing to move to AMD or ARM), or if they think leaving it untouched for a year and a half is fine, or a little of both.

I'd much rather have, like you say, a predictable schedule. In fact, so would IT departments and other people making purchase decisions. But Apple don't care™
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-18, 17:42

You just keep an eye on the rumor sites/leaks and make the best choice you can.

There a good write-up on this new SE at Daring Fireball. Just read it this morning and it says a lot of what’s been talked about here and in that closed S&R thread.
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tomoe
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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2020-04-18, 18:30

This was a pleasantly surprising update to me. I’m due for a new iPhone, but had been holding off because I really, really didn’t want anything larger than a 4.7” screen. Kind of wish the white SE had a matching white face, however that’s not the end of the world to me. Ordered the base model last night with the midnight blue case, should arrive around May 1st.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-19, 10:56

Question: since this new SE has the A13 (and, I imagine, all the speed, graphics, etc.-related features that entails), will it actually have a little more "oomph", being deployed on a "lesser" phone (smaller display, fewer pixels, less overall bells and whistles, etc.) than the flagship models)?

I wonder if the SE going to feel a bit peppier and "unleashed" than the 11 models, sporting the same processor? A lot fewer pixels to push, etc., but I don't know if that sort of thing works this way. Will it be like sticking a Mustang engine in a Focus, a bit overpowered for the different thing it's going in?

I guess I would've asked the same thing in 2016, with the A9 from the 4.7" and 5.5" 6s iPhones going into the 4" SE...

Assuming everything in the A13 is the same across all the phones using them, would't a smaller, lower-resolution phone without all the high-end cameras, FaceID sensors, etc. have a bit of extra muscle at its disposal, and maybe feel/seem a tad snappier than the higher-end models? Or is that just a stupid question? I don't know how this end of it all works. Obviously.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-04-19 at 11:19.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2020-04-19, 11:36

One would have to conduct tests to be sure. I wonder if it is lower binned silicon though, that isn’t deemed fit for the higher tier products. Meaning it cannot hit or sustain the same clock speeds per given voltage. It’s not unusual for companies to do this in lower priced units, rather than throwing the chips in the trash.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-19, 11:48

See, I didn't even know that was a thing. So that's probably what goes on. It's probably all a wash.

Plus, it wouldn't look good if a $400 phone just "felt" faster/zippier than a $700+ one. I'm sure there's stuff in place that keeps the SE from just totally running wild and making the pricier models look bad in any way.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2020-04-19, 12:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Question: since this new SE has the A13 (and, I imagine, all the speed, graphics, etc.-related features that entails), will it actually have a little more "oomph", being deployed on a "lesser" phone (smaller display, fewer pixels, less overall bells and whistles, etc.) than the flagship models)?

I wonder if the SE going to feel a bit peppier and "unleashed" than the 11 models, sporting the same processor? A lot fewer pixels to push, etc., but I don't know if that sort of thing works this way. Will it be like sticking a Mustang engine in a Focus, a bit overpowered for the different thing it's going in?

I guess I would've asked the same thing in 2016, with the A9 from the 4.7" and 5.5" 6s iPhones going into the 4" SE...

Assuming everything in the A13 is the same across all the phones using them, would't a smaller, lower-resolution phone without all the high-end cameras, FaceID sensors, etc. have a bit of extra muscle at its disposal, and maybe feel/seem a tad snappier than the higher-end models? Or is that just a stupid question? I don't know how this end of it all works. Obviously.
So, short answer is yes. Yes, this is likely the same A13 as in the 11 and in the 11 Pro, and yes, to an extent, pushin ga smaller display and generally having less stuff to worry about (such as additional cameras) leaves the A13 in the SE to do more.

If you look at the iPad 3, it introduced the Retina Display, and many who had it seemed dissatisfied with how underpowered it was. The iPad 4, which followed just half a year after, seemed to rectify that. (So arguably, the 3 shouldn't have launched at all; it was a premature product.)

The 3, being Retina, had to push four times the pixels (2 times horizontally and 2 times vertically), which means the GPU needs to be a lot more powerful.

The reverse is true here, as you guessed. But I don't think it will be a huge difference in practice. At least for now, the A13 on the 11 and 11 Pro seems to have a ton of headroom.

That could change, though. Once we're at iOS 17 or something, the A13 will be a bit sluggish, and that (presumed, likely) extra headroom on the SE would help. So amusingly, the cheapest iPhone you can buy today might also have the best longevity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
One would have to conduct tests to be sure. I wonder if it is lower binned silicon though, that isn’t deemed fit for the higher tier products. Meaning it cannot hit or sustain the same clock speeds per given voltage. It’s not unusual for companies to do this in lower priced units, rather than throwing the chips in the trash.
The SE 2016 reached basically exactly the same benchmark results as the 6S, so it probably wasn't. And I'm guessing they'll do the same here.
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2020-04-19, 13:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
See, I didn't even know that was a thing. So that's probably what goes on. It's probably all a wash.

Plus, it wouldn't look good if a $400 phone just "felt" faster/zippier than a $700+ one. I'm sure there's stuff in place that keeps the SE from just totally running wild and making the pricier models look bad in any way.
That typically how silicon chip manufacturing works. That is why the high end chips in a product stack launch first, with the lower end models coming later. Example: Most 9th gen Intel consumer desktop chips start out as say a i9 9900s, with better binned units becoming 9900ks, and ones with bad hyperthreading pathways becoming, becoming i7 9700s, ones with bad cores become i5 9600s, ones that cannot hit high higher clock speeds become the i5 9500, i5 9400, i3 9300, i3 9100 etc. Ones with poorly operating or failed IGP's become KF chips, with disabled IGPs.

Not saying Apple does this, as chucker mentioned, but it is possible. The cost savings most likely come from the older designs, screen, touchID etc, but we won't know till the phone is out there for testing.

Last edited by PB PM : 2020-04-19 at 13:37.
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chucker
 
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2020-04-19, 13:39

There is (probably) precedent for Apple doing this: 3rd-generation Apple TVs were a single-core A5. The original A5 in the iPhone 4S is actually a dual-core chip. Early Apple TVs appeared to just use those with one core shut off (probably an instance of binning on Samsung's part); later ones were a custom A5 variant that only had one core in the first place.

A more recent example would be the 2018 iPad Pro, which had 8 GPU cores, and one shut off. The yield has since improved that the 2020 iPad Pro has all 8 cores available.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
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2020-04-19, 16:08

Where does the camera on the new SE come from? My wife has a 7 and doesn't want Face ID. Her camera sucks compared to my refurbished Xs.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-19, 16:14

Is it the camera from the XR? Seems like I read that somewhere, but this past week has all kinda jumbled together.
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Capella
Dark Cat of the Sith
 
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2020-04-19, 23:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
Is it the camera from the XR? Seems like I read that somewhere, but this past week has all kinda jumbled together.
Quote:
While both the new iPhone SE and the iPhone XR are equipped with a single 12-megapixel wide-angle rear camera with an f/1.8 aperture, the iPhone XR has a newer sensor with 1.4µm pixels and larger Focus Pixels, whereas the iPhone SE has the same sensor as the iPhone 8. However, the new iPhone SE benefits from the A13 chip's improved image signal processor, so the gap between the cameras is likely minimal.
From MacRumors. It's the 8's physical sensor and the A13's signal processor.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-20, 09:38

Sounds like Mrs. Turtle would be getting an upgrade/improvement if she's coming from a 7...the SE camera seems to be a hybrid of iPhone 8 (sensor), iPhone XR (megapixels and aperture) and the A13 "brains" from the current flagship 11 to run it all.

EDIT: actually the 7 has the same megapixels/aperture as the new SE, so I guess the biggest improvement will be the step up from the A10 to A13 and the following, from that side-by-side comparison tool at Apple's site. (the following are the features/specs the SE has, camera-wise, that the 7 doesn't):


CAMERA
- True Tone flash with Slow Sync
- Portrait mode with advanced bokeh and Depth Control
- Portrait Lighting with six effects
- Next-generation Smart HDR for photos

VIDEO RECORDING:
- 4k video recording at 24, 30 or 60 fps
- Extended dynamic range for video up to 30 fps
- QuickTake Video
- Stereo Recording

FRONT CAMERA:
- Auto HDR for photos
- Portrait mode with advanced bokeh and Depth Control
- Portrait Lighting with six effects
- Cinematic video stabilization (1080p and 720p)

So still a step up, even if some of the core specs are the same.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2020-04-20 at 09:50.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2020-04-20, 16:09

My wife just pre-ordered one. 128GB Red. She is upgrading from a iPhone 7, so should be a pretty good upgrade for her. She thinks the 7/8/SE size is pretty big already so it was an SE or 11 Pro.

(I ordered an 128GB Black 11 for me because I'm interested in the FaceID which I have not yet got into - still using an iPhone 8 - and I couldn't bring myself to spend 11 Pro money.)

My daughter is rather excited about the prospect of harvesting my old iPhone 8 to replace her 5S. She doesn't have phone service but calls her cousins on FaceTime with it.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-20, 16:32

Yeah, an iPhone without the “phone” component is still a useful, powerful thing for sure. A couple of times a year I catch myself thinking “do I really need a phone?!”, since talking on an iPhone is WAY down the list of things I do. But for emergencies or the rare time I’m away from WiFi and need to access something, I guess I should just keep the voice/cellular data thing in place.

Maybe someday I’ll make that leap.
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Capella
Dark Cat of the Sith
 
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2020-04-26, 13:35

Longer review in the future, but short review: it feels so much snappier, the screen looks brighter, the photo quality is amazing, and importantly: I can mostly use it one-handed. Occasionally for typing long messages, I'll hold it in the left and type out with the right, rather than being able to thumb-type everything in one hand. But that would be my all the time use if I'd got anything bigger, so.

"A blind, deaf, comatose, lobotomy patient could feel my anger!" - Darth Baras
twitter ; amateur photographer ; fanfiction writer ; roleplayer and worldbuilder
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2020-04-26, 16:36

All the reviews I’ve see have, naturally, been all positive (and written by reasonable, sane people who seem to grasp the difference between this model and the 11 series...meaning they’re not acting like unhinged, point-missing dipshits on Reddit).
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