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"Contingency Plans" (split from Daily News Thread)
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PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-12-06, 20:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
After 20 years of this place, we're down to the weird ones!
Of course, everyone else under 65 stopped using forums years ago.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 10:10

Nah. 54 here. This is way better than straight up InstaFaceTwitTok. After 19 years, you get to know people, it’s 99% Jack-ass free (now), not really much in the way of Karen’s/fingerwaggers (and if there’s are, we get to tell them to ease up/relax/bug off…or just ban them if they can’t/won’t STFU and act right), crybaby-free zone and no “proud to be stupid” types like on Instagram and others. Or, worse, the types who THINK they know everything (but really don’t). I’d actually rather deal with someone actually stupid/clueless than those types.

This place will outlast those others because they’re built on nothing real. Just attention/click-whoring from toddlers. They’ll grow out of it, and everything cycles around. At some point, NOT being on InstaFaceTwitTok will be the “cool” thing, and people will be bragging/placing value on their lack of followers. Just watch. It’s inevitable.

“Quiet dignity” will become the trend, and all the dancing girls, hair/makeup and “look at me!” challenges won’t be a thing. Along with all the vegan, tiny house and yoga/mental health/travel vloggers/influencers. Nothing lasts forever.

The corner pub, which is what places like this are closer to, rarely implode/go away. It might get down to 3 members talking about cameras, Hamas//Israel and boogeyman Trump…but I’ll be long gone by then.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2023-12-07, 10:12

What does it say about me that I'm 33 and hanging out here?
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-12-07, 10:15

I’m under 40 still, but I know most people have moved on from forums to Reddit, iMessage and other things.

Not saying this isn’t good, but let’s face it the day will come that the ancient version of vBulletin this forum runs gets broken by changes to internet standards. It will be a sudden death, but it will come. On my iPad it is always doing strange things, like logging me out between pages in threads and stuff like that already (desktop version).
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 10:17

That you’re cool. And not a fan of those other, newer outlets.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2023-12-07, 10:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
That you’re cool. And not a fan of those other, newer outlets.
I only worked at one of them for seven years.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 10:29

Yeah, but I bet you’re glad you don’t now. Tesla boy taking a fresh piss all over the joint every morning. Seems hell-bent on wrecking it, from where I sit.

Has he done anything right/normal/sane since taking over? You’d know more than I would. I just know I’ve yet to see a news article reporting so.

Somebody turned Wile E. Coyote loose inside the ACME factory/company store, and it’s going about as well as anyone would expect.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 10:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
I’m under 40 still, but I know most people have moved on from forums to Reddit, iMessage and other things.

Not saying this isn’t good, but let’s face it the day will come that the ancient version of vBulletin this forum runs gets broken by changes to internet standards. It will be a sudden death, but it will come. On my iPad it is always doing strange things, like logging me out between pages in threads and stuff like that already (desktop version).
Odd. It works fine for me and not doing any crazy, aggravating stuff like that. Then again, I’m running ancient hardware (2013 MacBook Pro, 2016 iPhone, with OS versions on both at least 1-2 generations behind current. The software probably feels at home on my gear.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2023-12-07, 10:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Yeah, but I bet you’re glad you don’t now. Tesla boy taking a fresh piss all over the joint every morning. Seems hell-bent on wrecking it, from where I sit.

Has he done anything right/normal/sane since taking over? You’d know more than I would. I just know I’ve yet to see a news article reporting so.

Somebody turned Wile E. Coyote loose inside the ACME factory/company store, and it’s going about as well as anyone would expect.
Almost everything he's tried to launch was something we'd already built before he showed up. Usually we'd experimented with it, decided it was a bad idea, and shut it back down, but the way Twitter's codebase works those features just linger behind a switch. He keeps taking credit for stuff we'd already decided didn't work (and I think we've been proven right on that).

I have not once regretted getting out before he took over.

(Well, I do miss the money. They paid me an absurd amount for that job )
  quote
kscherer
Which way is up?
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2023-12-07, 12:03

We've got a good crew, here.

And, yeah, it could come down to "don't work no more", or it could come down to "Brad don't want to no more".

In the meantime, we've still got Australia all the way through Deutschland represented in this little community, and I'll be here until it turns to dust. Or I do. Whichever comes first.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 12:50

Yeah, I think it'll be good. The upper management keeps a nice rein on things (spammers, shitheads, brick-throwers, pot-stirrers, etc.), so it's never a miserable place to hang out a bit. For anyone I, personally, may anger or annoy, you're free to put me on Ignore (if you haven't already). I'll never know/care, honestly. But I assure you...I don't wake up every morning with "be a hateful, unreasonable dickhead to everyone I encounter" on my calendar/to-do. That's other people who, thankfully, are gone.

It is a good bunch. When I think of some of the mud-pie battles I see at guitar or graphics-oriented boards I lurk at, this place is like a Nursery Rhyme, devoid of pinheads, dickwits, fight-starters, etc. It's refreshing. You wouldn't believe two grown men could have a multi-day running gun battle of guitar fret size/material, but I've seen it. And wiring, potentiometers, capacitors, etc. The online guitar community is among the worst in terms of "just act right and cool it" I've ever seen. They'll argue over a fencepost, at the drop of a hat, about anything. ANYTHING. Eddie Van Halen's "tone", David Gilmour's amp, Stevie Ray Vaughn's anything, etc.

A more wretched hive of scum and villainy, you'll never see. You'd think musicians/guitarists would be all cool and laidback dudes, too "into music" to get all spun up and snotty about anything, and many are. But there's a dark, evil presence lurking about. I log in under fake names/Yahoo burner email accounts now, just because I don't want any of those clown-butts knowing the first thing about me.
  quote
Matsu
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2023-12-07, 14:06

I'm not a musician, but I understand instruments arouse fanatical impulses. I have colleague who treated me to an unsolicited diatribe about tone woods and acoustic guitars once - to cap off a conversation that had started around politics

.........................................
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 14:17

Exactly!

They get into the weeds about woods, metals, finishes, weights, electronics, pickups, hardware, cases, accessories, etc.

Probably even more than gun nuts do?

I'm just more of a "pick it up and play" guy, so I'm not sitting there with an oscilloscope trying to pin stuff down, or doing side-by-side blind tests on tone woods (like some seem to do). It's more of a casual hobby to me, vs. "my Life™", so I can afford to be a bit more "eh...whatever" about it all, I guess. I've done the bulk of my live gigging back in my 20's, so I don't get worked-up/precious about much anymore. Everybody saw my little blue Gretsch acoustic in that Creative Endeavors thread. That's what I plunk on now, usually solo and strictly for fun.

Still, it's funny to sit back and watch from a safe, lurking distance. Sometimes. Other times it's just annoying and I go elsewhere. It's the Internet...plenty of places to do so. I'll go read about rattlesnakes or something.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-12-07, 16:38

I have been here since my initial account and don't plan to leave. I like forums because the flow is better for discussions. Other formats just don't work as well IMO. I do spend most of my time reading the forums though and far less posting. I'm actually shocked that I'm the #5 all-time poster on here right now.

I'm not exactly Mr Verbosity.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
  quote
psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2023-12-07, 20:21

You simply can't have free-flowing, normal (non-triggered/snarky) discussions on Instagram or Twitter between people who disagree. I see it all the time. Someone questions Lady Gaga's latest fashion choice and all her brain-damaged fans get their backs up and jump on the original poster like a bunch of Doberman's, crying and insulting the original poster, and saying stupid, junior high shit like "she's a millionaire...what do you make?", as though that's the end-all/be-all indicator of quality or value. I guess to a bunch of emotionally/mentally toddlers and full-time celebrity worshippers, it is.

You can't talk to those people, once they get their back up and are offended or outraged, which is pretty much 24/7.

PS - And don't EVER speak ill of Gal Gadot, Tom Holland, Henry Cavill, Christian Bale or Beyonce. These people absolutely lose their shit over that!
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-12-07, 20:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Odd. It works fine for me and not doing any crazy, aggravating stuff like that. Then again, I’m running ancient hardware (2013 MacBook Pro, 2016 iPhone, with OS versions on both at least 1-2 generations behind current. The software probably feels at home on my gear.
Yeah it's only on my iPad. Not my desktops (Mac or WIN) or iPhone. It's weird. I don't use mobile on the iPad, it's too restrictive, but maybe it would be happier if I did?
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2023-12-08, 05:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by psmith2.0 View Post
Odd. It works fine for me and not doing any crazy, aggravating stuff like that. Then again, I’m running ancient hardware (2013 MacBook Pro, 2016 iPhone, with OS versions on both at least 1-2 generations behind current. The software probably feels at home on my gear.
The only thing I run into (that's always been there, or for a long time, anyway) is that the "this is the most recent post you've viewed in the thread" marker gets buggy sometimes. It'll sometimes insist you haven't seen a page yet even when you've read it multiple times.
  quote
turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2023-12-08, 15:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
The only thing I run into (that's always been there, or for a long time, anyway) is that the "this is the most recent post you've viewed in the thread" marker gets buggy sometimes. It'll sometimes insist you haven't seen a page yet even when you've read it multiple times.
This happens all the time for me. I've gotten to where I just click the most recent post button and scroll back instead.
  quote
Mac+
9" monochrome
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 🇦🇺
 
2023-12-08, 19:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
We've got a good crew, here.

And, yeah, it could come down to "don't work no more", or it could come down to "Brad don't want to no more".

In the meantime, we've still got Australia all the way through Deutschland represented in this little community, and I'll be here until it turns to dust. Or I do. Whichever comes first.
🇦🇺 Represent! 👋
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2023-12-09, 12:23

I know I'm veering a little farther off-topic here, but I guess if we're already distracted…
Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Not saying this isn’t good, but let’s face it the day will come that the ancient version of vBulletin this forum runs gets broken by changes to internet standards. It will be a sudden death, but it will come.
Yeah, this version of vB is effectively 20 years old now. We got a few minor upgrades in the early days before the license changed, but 3.0 launched in… 2004. A few months ago, I actually started manually modernizing our vBulletin code to run on more modern PHP containerized behind podman or Docker. What we currently have requires an ancient and security hole riddled version of PHP that is damn near impossible to get running on any modern Linux distro, and that means we're also on a very old Linux distro that is also probably riddled with security holes. Last I left my effort, my changes to the vBulletin code amounted to…

Code:
git diff --stat original-vb..HEAD | tail -n 1 279 files changed, 556 insertions(+), 1309 deletions(-)
so far. Last I left it, most of the pages loaded and functioned as expected with my custom modernizing changes.

I might resume this effort over the upcoming holiday break. My biggest next challenge, aside from testing this new containerized setup, is getting email-sending to work. An already finicky setup when everything is running on local bare metal becomes even more complex and fragile when I look at getting the right parts talking to each other in separate containers. If there's one thing I would love to kill about running this server, it's email. The forums and everything else are a cakewalk by comparison.

It probably says a lot about how much I value my own time when you see the actual sticker price of vBulletin 6 (latest version) is US$179.00. Maybe I should just give up and pay for the upgraded software, but I'd still want to get the thing containerized so I could more easily change hosts and upgrade the base OS with less fear of the vBulletin house of cards falling apart, and I'd still have a small (or maybe not small) nightmare on my hands of migrating a database from 3 major versions ago and rebuilding various customizations I've made over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
On my iPad it is always doing strange things, like logging me out between pages in threads and stuff like that already (desktop version).
Unfortunately, I don't have the time (or knowledge) to fix the various cookie issue we have like the "latest" links not actually going to the most recent posts, and I haven't seen any surprise logouts like you just described. As those kinds of bugs continue to pile up, yeah, the forums will probably just bite the dust one day despite my attempts to modernize its runtime.

You may not see me posting much these days, but like any other BDFL, I'm often watching, sometimes nuking spam, and always paying the bills (which have actually grown recently, thanks Akamai ). I don't plan to just walk away when the forums eventually die. I'll at least hang a sign up on the door saying that the shop is closed and ask people to look at /r/applenova or something. In years past, several times I've considered migrating to phpBB or Vanilla Forums, two of the only decent options that could migrate our old vB data without me inventing a whole new adapter script. I came pretty close to migrating to Vanilla once, but neither it nor phpBB are as feature-rich as this ancient version of vBulletin, believe it or not, at least the way we use it.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
Ryan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Promise Land of Trustafarians
 
2023-12-09, 12:47

How does Akamai's pricing compare to Fastly or Cloudflare?
  quote
Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2023-12-09, 13:41

I know nothing about what it takes to host these things (I didn't realized we needed to pay Akamai, thought we just set up the vBulletin and opened it up to the internet.) But I've been here since the start, and I'm not sure I've ever used the Donate tab. Maybe once in the beginning.

I say we do a once-a-year fundraiser, so that freeloaders like me can feel the pain. Let us know the annual estimated cost of running this thing.

And yes, for the love of Pete, let's upgrade to vBulletin 6.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Send a message via Skype™ to PB PM 
2023-12-09, 14:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I know I'm veering a little farther off-topic here, but I guess if we're already distracted…

Yeah, this version of vB is effectively 20 years old now. We got a few minor upgrades in the early days before the license changed, but 3.0 launched in… 2004. A few months ago, I actually started manually modernizing our vBulletin code to run on more modern PHP containerized behind podman or Docker. What we currently have requires an ancient and security hole riddled version of PHP that is damn near impossible to get running on any modern Linux distro, and that means we're also on a very old Linux distro that is also probably riddled with security holes. Last I left my effort, my changes to the vBulletin code amounted to…

Code:
git diff --stat original-vb..HEAD | tail -n 1 279 files changed, 556 insertions(+), 1309 deletions(-)
so far. Last I left it, most of the pages loaded and functioned as expected with my custom modernizing changes.

I might resume this effort over the upcoming holiday break. My biggest next challenge, aside from testing this new containerized setup, is getting email-sending to work. An already finicky setup when everything is running on local bare metal becomes even more complex and fragile when I look at getting the right parts talking to each other in separate containers. If there's one thing I would love to kill about running this server, it's email. The forums and everything else are a cakewalk by comparison.

It probably says a lot about how much I value my own time when you see the actual sticker price of vBulletin 6 (latest version) is US$179.00. Maybe I should just give up and pay for the upgraded software, but I'd still want to get the thing containerized so I could more easily change hosts and upgrade the base OS with less fear of the vBulletin house of cards falling apart, and I'd still have a small (or maybe not small) nightmare on my hands of migrating a database from 3 major versions ago and rebuilding various customizations I've made over the years.



Unfortunately, I don't have the time (or knowledge) to fix the various cookie issue we have like the "latest" links not actually going to the most recent posts, and I haven't seen any surprise logouts like you just described. As those kinds of bugs continue to pile up, yeah, the forums will probably just bite the dust one day despite my attempts to modernize its runtime.

You may not see me posting much these days, but like any other BDFL, I'm often watching, sometimes nuking spam, and always paying the bills (which have actually grown recently, thanks Akamai ). I don't plan to just walk away when the forums eventually die. I'll at least hang a sign up on the door saying that the shop is closed and ask people to look at /r/applenova or something. In years past, several times I've considered migrating to phpBB or Vanilla Forums, two of the only decent options that could migrate our old vB data without me inventing a whole new adapter script. I came pretty close to migrating to Vanilla once, but neither it nor phpBB are as feature-rich as this ancient version of vBulletin, believe it or not, at least the way we use it.
Thanks Brad, for the effort to keep things going here. I think I can speak for most of us here when I say we'd be willing help pay for any update if you feel the need to go that route! This might be a small forum now days, but it's kind of a home away from the craziness of the internet.
  quote
chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
Send a message via ICQ to chucker Send a message via AIM to chucker Send a message via MSN to chucker Send a message via Yahoo to chucker Send a message via Skype™ to chucker 
2023-12-09, 15:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I don't plan to just walk away when the forums eventually die. I'll at least hang a sign up on the door saying that the shop is closed and ask people to look at /r/applenova or something.
Oof. That hurt. *coughs*

Thanks for all you do. And like Frank said, consider giving us an annual estimated cost.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2023-12-09, 23:58

Thank you Brad.

I suspected you were loitering out there on the edge of the firelight.

Perhaps this entire conversation should be pruned to the Feedback area under "Contingency Plans"?

Along those lines, would anybody be interested in trying out a Discord or something similar - not as a replacement, but as a "bug out" refuge for Apple nerdery just in case this goes down when they reveal the iPhone 32?? LOLOLOL


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2023-12-10, 13:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Perhaps this entire conversation should be pruned to the Feedback area under "Contingency Plans"?
Good idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Along those lines, would anybody be interested in trying out a Discord or something similar - not as a replacement, but as a "bug out" refuge for Apple nerdery just in case this goes down when they reveal the iPhone 32?? LOLOLOL
Funny you mention that! I created a Discord server several years ago as an experiment along these lines as a vBulletin replacement or supplement, and I think turtle similarly started one in the last year or two too, but I quickly learned that I hate almost everything about the Discord UI and management, and I mentally relegated it to "last resort" category. If that fateful "hang up the sign" day arrives and I don't have are any better alternatives, I may very well point to Discord.

As for the comments and questions about the monetary cost of running this place, our server is hosted on Linode which was purchased by Akamai who after a few months jacked up everyone's rates by 20% which is what motivated me to look at modernizing things so I could move to another hosting provider. As it stands today, I'm kind of stuck on this specific Linode instance due to the rats nest of customizations and ancient dependencies on the machine. Our Linode plan used to cost $360/year, but Akamai bumped that to $432/year, and I doubt that will be their only increase. (FWIW, I used to love Linode. Instead of increasing prices, every couple years they actually gave customers free upgrades to have more resources for the same price, which makes sense since hardware only gets cheaper every year. Akamai killed that benefit, and I have no faith in them running Linode long-term.)

The applenova.com domain is an additional $16/year. So, it's a round total of $450/year just to keep the infrastructure running.

I'm not looking for donations to cover the bills right now, and the Donate page is terribly out of date and probably broken, but I appreciate the offers. I think the Donate page used to feed a PayPal account that Alcimedes was using to collect funds to make a donation in Jack's name many years ago. I should probably remove that link…

update: I have commented out the Store and Donate links in the header since they're probably dead to us. You can still find them if you look hard enough, but really don't waste your time.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2023-12-10, 20:01

There's nothing that compares to the threaded organization of a bulletin board.

Discord is scrolling hell.

Slack isn't the answer either.

Migration can be a nightmare.

It's never a clean transition, just a "better of two bad options" choice.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
  quote
Yontsey
*AD SPACE FOR SALE*
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Cleveland-ish, OH
 
2023-12-10, 20:39

I turned 40 a couple months ago. I joined in I think April 2004. I’ve spent almost half of my life as a member of this forum.

I much prefer Discord tbh. I’m on discord everyday with multiple other groups. It’s a great place.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2023-12-10, 21:06

Different tastes, I guess, or different tools for different jobs. I'm a member/lurker of a dozen Discords, and unless I'm actually present during a conversation while it's happening, if the server is moderately active, any useful information from that conversation is lost to the ether. Scrolling or searching through history is technically possible but practically a pain in the ass.

For live, ephemeral chatting? Discord is great. For any material, organized, long-form discussions? I agree with Drew; it's terrible for that purpose.

I also loathe that literally everything is hidden behind Discord Inc's global login wall, killing any sort of accessibility and transparency even for otherwise "open" communities. It's worse than Facebook in that regard.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
  quote
drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2023-12-11, 18:17

Discord is the Twitch of conversation; great while it's happening, highly unnavigable to review.

Is there no other threaded product OUT there??

Does vBulletin rule this space?

I mean, Reddit frankly sucks when compared to the fairly flat format we're using here.

Forget Facebook.

I value chronological order over relevancy any day.

Upvoting may be useful with problem solving and popularity contests, but that's all.

Allow ME to filter the content via simple scrolling.


...
  quote
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