Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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Did a Man just win the Women's 800m?
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South African 800 metre runner Caster Semenya faces IAAF sex test Quote:
All those who believe in telekinesis, raise my hand. |
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Hoonigan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
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I'd probably bet a case of beer on it.
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BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope. Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
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She may well have been born with female genitalia but is otherwise XY...
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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I would not hit it. |
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Hoonigan
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
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Maybe with a bat?
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Custom User Title
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At home
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I would still do her
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Gender testing/ambiguity is actually more common in sports than one would think. All Olympic athletes, even those in equestrian events, have to undergo a gender test, with the exception of members of the monarchy of the host country (Montreal '76).
Looking for scars or a frank and beans would do nothing - as billybobsky mentioned, it's almost always a case of an athlete having female genitalia but being genetically male. Some athletes find out that they're genetically male for the first time when they have to take a gender test. and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Custom User Title
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: At home
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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Turns out Semen, Ya! has three times the usual amounts of testosterone in 'her' body.*
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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I'm no biologist but I have to question whether it makes sense to call gender on basis of hormones in body. It just seems to me it'd open up a can of worms because there's so many variables whereas morphological difference is relatively clear-cut. Has ovary & clitoris? Female. Has penis & testicles? Male.
Why even bother with hormones? Also, the article has some undertones suggesting it's actually more of a drug test than a gender test. The former would certainly be understandable (steroids = more testosterone, yes?) but a latter test based on hormones? I don't get it. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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It has to be a combination of different tests, because morphological differences between sexes can be a medical affectation (if you know what I mean ) rather than an absolute hallmark of gender.
This entire case opens up a can of worms. If an athlete were to have gender correction surgery and become legally female, should they be eligible to compete with other female athletes? It's a grey area because already in sport you find that the "most male" athletes in female categories inevitably win. In my opinion, the problem we're really seeing here is that it's likely (if not certain) that a male athlete with poor technique could defeat a female athlete with excellent technique, simply because of power. For example a lower-ranked tennis player with a more powerful serve could beat a technically brilliant female player simply because he can hit the ball harder and faster for longer. It's a shortcoming of the event. I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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You are right there are cases where the morphological differences are less than clear due to genes, and I'm aware of the problems surrounding gender correction surgery. However, this doesn't seem to apply to Ms. Semenya.
I suppose a better system would be basically morphology first, then homornology (what's the formal word?). As for the power, or lack thereof, I'm sorry but that's pretty weak. I mean, we can make similar cases for height or weight. Should we exclude players because they're too tall and thus can run faster & leap higher? That's even a worse can of worms. Yes, it's possible that Semenya may have had lot of power for her category, but I feel that it's a case of opening a door that shouldn't be opened. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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The day is fast approaching where steroid and drug regulation will end, and it'll be a genetic free-for-all. I for one would welcome that. "I don't want to see a man do the 100m in 9.4, I want to see a man do it in three seconds flat with the legs of a cheetah and the body of a human." I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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The problem is that both sex and gender are cultural constructions, not simple biological facts (of course all forms of information are culturally constructed to one degree or another). However, 3x the "normal" testosterone is a bit fishy... Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Or a natural glandular disorder, giving an in-born and natural advantage in this particular endeavour. In which case... hell yes let her compete. It's no different than Phelps' wacky body shape. He couldn't *train* that, it just *happened*... but it gives him an advantage.
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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If there weren't any useful definition (which also implies that to be useful, it has to be sufficiently narrow and specific as to remove any ambiguity that are usually present in natural language), there would be no point in discussing so in science literature. At least that's what I think. |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Hmm?
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It's not as hazy as, say, nationality, or race, but it's certainly debatable. You're arguing that physiology defines gender, or is at least correlative to a defined gender (i.e. if you have a penis you 'are' male.) Individuals who have sex changes frequently point to it as a corrective procedure: they're just amending their body to match their brains.
I'm Joseph Fritzl, and no windows was my idea. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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So if we go by brain chemistry and sexual orientation... lesbians should compete with hetero men, and gay men with straight women?
I say stick with the obvious, myself. |
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Right. If they want to get gender change procedure, that's fine. Their body, their choice. However, it doesn't change the fact that they were born with the equipment and thus were that or other gender even though they do not feel that way. Even the procedure can't go back in time and change that fact.
Now to be honest, I have no simple answer for those who aren't born with complete equipment and thus are ambiguous and feel sympathy for those who has been 'corrected' to wrong gender. Just to reiterate, I'm no biologist and there's a chance that I get smacked silly by biologists for giving out erroneous definition. I'd be surprised to hear that gender has no clear definition in the literature, though. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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If you define people based on the sexual organs they have, you run into serious problems when you start having to define people's sex (for them) when they were born with poorly differentiated organs (as you've pointed out), which is more common than most people think, and when people have procedures done like sex changes, hysterectomies, castrations, etc. done. Should we be telling them they no longer have a sex? What about hermaphrodites, with their sexy lady bits, and their sexy man bits? It seems like it should be pretty basic on the surface, but there is so much variation within and outside of our culture that it seems to be just as tricky to define as gender. Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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^ This. I think about 99% of people would be surprised at just how many people are born intersexed. (The other 1% shouldn't be surprised, because they were.)
It's not some one-in-a-million, freak of nature sort of thing. It happens. People just don't really talk about it. (And in case anyone was wondering, no.) and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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Hermaphrodite is a very old word.
Aphrodite with a Herm protruding. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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There's a great article on this by Alice Domurat Dreger called "Jarring Bodies: Thoughts on the Display of Unusual Anatomies" that deals with this issue. Here are two good quotes from it: Quote:
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Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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M AH - ch ain saw
Join Date: May 2004
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Can we get a split? Please.
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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M AH - ch ain saw
Join Date: May 2004
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Another vote for split.
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I also think there's the problem of conflating the definitions as accepted by cultures with more narrow definition of sex in identifying its role in reproduction. Yes, there's so lot of identity associated with sex (e.g. gender). I do not deny this and do appreciate that many people do not always agree with how they identity with themselves and their outward appearance. But it still won't change the fact that they were born with this or that equipment. Quote:
To put this way, it's a bit like Michael Jackson saying that he always was white and needed procedure to amend his body to match his self-identity. Except, he was born with dark color. That is irreversible and unalterable even if his self-identity does not agree with one bit of his being born with dark color. Simplistic? Too narrow? Probably, but any other definition would seem to me at least render the whole point of differentiating one sex from other utterly useless. |
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OK Mr. Sunshine!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Toronto
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I just want to say upfront that I know you're a good guy, so I'm not having a go at you at all here. My main point was about "poorly defined" genitalia and hermaphrodites. They can't be easily put into either category. My point about the cultural aspect is that even the need to define sex (and for some, gender) in a binary way is cultural. You can choose to base it on hormones or whatever you want, but that's a culturally determined way of defining it, not a culturally neutral one. Forcing people to fit into a particular set of cultural definitions of what is "real" or "normal" or "what you were born with", etc. not only falls apart under critical analysis, but is, IMO, a gross imposition of cultural baggage onto others. Typically, this type of move is backed by the perceived authority of either science or scripture. Re: "the role of sex in reproduction", that opens a whole can of worms: What about people born unable to produce babies? What about people who have that ability removed through surgery, accidents, bike seats, etc.? Do they lose their sex? Do they become less of a woman or a man? Why even have the need to tell people what their sex is at all? Outside of sports, I can't think of a good reason for it. I, for one, do think it's utterly useless. Do not be oppressed by the forces of ignorance and delusion! But rise up now with resolve and courage! Entranced by ignorance, from beginningless time until now, You have had more than enough time to sleep. So do not slumber any longer, but strive after virtue with body, speech, and mind! |
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¡Damned!
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Purgatory
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I, for one, would like to know upfront what I'm paying for. No surprises kthx.
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