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View Poll Results: Should Schools Be Required to Say the Pledge?
Yes 7 14.29%
No 42 85.71%
Voters: 49. You may not vote on this poll

Pledge
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World Leader Pretend
Ruling teh World
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston, MA
 
2006-09-27, 22:50

Anyone think it's just a little weird that every public school in America is now required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day? My high school is doing it and it's starting to get on my nerves. I mean, when you are in grade school, patriotic things like saying the pledge are fine, but in high school? Every day?

It just feels like a SALUTE THE FLAG! sort of thing, cramming Americanisms down our throats. I'm not really sure where I stand, but I really don't approve of everything America is doing right now.

So what do you think? Should every school be required to say the Pledge?
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-09-27, 22:56

Yes/No option doesn't cut it.

I usually think it's good idea to recite Pledge in grade school as a mean of teaching kids some fundamental values that everyone is supposed to hold.

But high school? Every day? Did the administrators explain their reasoning? I'd think it a bit strange. When I was in high school, pledge usually were reserved for ceremonies or assemblies...
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JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-09-27, 22:58

Uh.... thats not so strange.. I had to say the pledge every day at my school back in the 70s and 80s... I think that had been the case for many years prior as well. I think there are always exceptions for children (or parents really) who have religious issues with it. Overall, I think its a good idea.

What gets me mad is "some" (not to be mentioned) city councils or school boards have members that purposely sit during the pledge to be defiant. They feel that until everything is the way they want, they won't give any kind of loyalty to our nation...

Public Schools certainly should say the pledge...

JTA
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World Leader Pretend
Ruling teh World
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston, MA
 
2006-09-27, 22:59

I didn't make myself clear, this is a Federal Mandate. It came from the Bush administration and everyone around the country is supposedly doing this.

Oh, and I messed up the poll, admins should add some more options...
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billybobsky
BANNED
I am worthless beyond hope.
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Inner Swabia. If you have to ask twice, don't.
 
2006-09-27, 23:03

No. I refused to say it when I was in elementary/middle school, and I still don't say it to thus day.

JTA, not saying the pledge isn't equivalent to being disloyal.
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AWR
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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2006-09-28, 00:17

Demanding alligence is a Bad Thing, imo.
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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 00:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by World Leader Pretend View Post
I didn't make myself clear, this is a Federal Mandate. It came from the Bush administration and everyone around the country is supposedly doing this.
"Supposedly"? Do you have any sources that this is actually the case?
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zsummers
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New York?
 
2006-09-28, 00:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheA View Post
What gets me mad is "some" (not to be mentioned) city councils or school boards have members that purposely sit during the pledge to be defiant. They feel that until everything is the way they want, they won't give any kind of loyalty to our nation...

Public Schools certainly should say the pledge...

JTA
Can you explain what it is that makes you mad about people refusing to standing during the pledge? And why that's necessarily not "giv[ing] any kind of loyalty to our nation"?
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2006-09-28, 00:46

This widespread misplaced pride in dissociative citizenship continues to baffle and confound me. This experiment known as America thrives through diversity, but ultimate, hostile diversity is hardly a means toward holding a society of especially disparate elements joined together. Certainly, a scheduled repetition of a pledge to your nation is hardly the kind of thing to instill real pride and sense of duty, but the level of disdain I sense from some of you toward the very concept indicates that, unless we find a way to establish common fealties within our nation(s), we're short years away from clusters of people organized purely by race and/or religion, who are so polarized against the other, that we'll be no better than the unmanageable political climate of the nations of the middle east.

The nation/state can't last.
Don't worry, it's not your fault that it's happening.... it's just depressing that it is.

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 00:49

I think the biggest issue with such a pledge, especially when looking back at similar methods in the past (OMG Godwin Alert!), is a fear of "if you're not with us, you're against us". That is, if I don't pledge, that might make me a traitor to the country in the eyes of some.
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Eugene
careful with axes
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Hillsborough, CA
 
2006-09-28, 01:00

Reciting the pledge daily stunk of brainwashing to me in elementary school. I was spared 7 more years of it by attending private school.
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hiltond
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2006-09-28, 01:25

We said the pledge everyday from kindergarten to 12th grade. I really like the pledge except for two details. While I do believe that my nation is one nation under god I don't want everyone to have to state this as their beliefs are just as valid as mine.

I do like the fact that the pledge doesn't ask one to agree with everything the US is doing right now. It asks one to think of us as one nation and not tribes of Native Americans, Irish Americans, Mexican Americans, Rich Americans, gay Americans etc. The liberty and justice for all part could be very good if only we could get people to believe and understand that section. The meaning one could derive from the pledge could actually cause people to question and check their government.

I guess the problem with making a pledge a rote exercise is that in mechanically reciting such a pledge the words lose meaning.

If the US were an ideal society time could be set aside everyday and those choosing not to participate would be require to sit in respectful silence.

I think I have talked myself into liking and disliking this requirement. Good thing I don't have a senate vote.
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Luca
ಠ_ರೃ
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Minnesota
 
2006-09-28, 01:35

As far as I know, even China doesn't have a requirement like this for their primary and secondary school students.

Since when has it been required for all K-12 schools to recite it every day? That's stupid. You should say the pledge because you want to, not because someone makes you. It should be recited for important events, not every damn day.
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JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-09-28, 01:36

Okay now... Let me clarify... The feds should not force anyone to say the pledge but schools should have the right to say the pledge. School districts should have a right to decicde on their own if they do or don't.


Show me where it is currently federal law to require students to say the pledge?

I think, World Leader Pretend, that you are confusing a case in which there was a law (recently strucken down) that said schools 'COULD' allow students to say the pledge... This is a MUCH different thing... It means that if a certain school district made it a policy, then THOSE kids would say it. It ALSO means that other districts would be free to NOT say the pledge if thats how they decide.

This sounds like diversity to me... But it was denied by the Supreme Court (9th circuit at it again) ...

The House of Reps (not really Bush) has been trying to allow schools to voluntarily say the pledge for a long time. What is usually at issue is not the mandatory nature of it but the words "Under God". I understand opposition to this. The original pledge didn't say it.

Check out: "http://www.americasdebate.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11167"

Also Check out: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance"

This is mostly a knee-jerk issue anyway.
One other thing... Bush does not make laws, Congress does. There is a whole other world out there outside of moveon.org...

JTA
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JohnnyTheA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-09-28, 01:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luca View Post
As far as I know, even China doesn't have a requirement like this for their primary and secondary school students.

Since when has it been required for all K-12 schools to recite it every day? That's stupid. You should say the pledge because you want to, not because someone makes you. It should be recited for important events, not every damn day.
Thats RIGHT! And its not a law... WLP, could you provide us with a link that shows this new law?
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AWR
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
 
2006-09-28, 02:46

Only in "America". *

I am not aware of any other developed or developing country that even debates stuff like this, especially on a national, mainstream level.

A school- or government-mandated pledge does not instill or embody a sense of community or pride or loyalty. Those feelings come from inside a person based on experience, thought and emotion. They are not manufactured by Congress the President or Harrison Ford.

It smacks of brainwashing, of politics, of this with us or against us simplification of issues. It's a diversionary tactic supported by politicians who want to seem ALL AMERICAN while they lay waste to the economy, national security, the environment, the education system and the founding "values" of the USA.

All in the name of $$$$$$$$$ and God and the Flag. wtf?

/ off rant


* "America" rocks the casbah at many, many thing.
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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 03:10

I fully agree with AWR. It may not be brainwashing, but it certainly, deliberately or not, is a means for politicians to distract the people from the much more important issues in the country.
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Wrao
Yarp
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
 
2006-09-28, 03:25

I remember reciting the pledge in grade school. I remember nearly everyone half-assed it. It was a morose chant, no inflection worth speaking of, no emotional content, no patriotism. Just hollow and dreary sounds reverberating off of the drywall.

Hum, A bit like my experiences with church actually.


edit, am I the only one that thought this thread would be about the wood polisher?
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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 03:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
I remember reciting the pledge in grade school. I remember nearly everyone half-assed it. It was a morose chant, no inflection worth speaking of, no emotional content, no patriotism. Just hollow and dreary sounds reverberating off of the drywall.

Hum, A bit like my experiences with church actually.
Heh, yes, sounds a lot like confirmation class in my early youth. Most of the people "praying" would twiddle their thumbs in doing so, or say nothing at all, or deliberately say nonsense. Or, when singing, many would make no effort to sound remotely on key. They were there to collect money, not because they had much interest in religion.
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AWR
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2006-09-28, 03:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
I remember reciting the pledge in grade school. I remember nearly everyone half-assed it. It was a morose chant, no inflection worth speaking of, no emotional content, no patriotism. Just hollow and dreary sounds reverberating off of the drywall.
Poignant description. Sounds just like my elementary school.
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Wrao
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Join Date: May 2004
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2006-09-28, 03:36

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
Heh, yes, sounds a lot like confirmation class in my early youth. Most of the people "praying" would twiddle their thumbs in doing so, or say nothing at all, or deliberately say nonsense. Or, when singing, many would make no effort to sound remotely on key. They were there to collect money, not because they had much interest in religion.
Well I only went to church for a year or so, and even then not very regularly. I mostly went for the free donuts and coffee. But imagine this, a young musician, soaking up anything with a staff and some noteheads, getting excited at the prospect of singing and playing music at this new and foreign thing called 'church', only to have the result of all the psalms and hymns be a bunch of droning, out of pitch, "catch-up" rhythm nonsense.. well, it was awful is the point.

The ironic part is that church music can and is very awesome sometimes, it's often the most active music scene in any given town, providing great gigs for many musicians and all around being an integral part of the entire history of western music.
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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 03:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
But imagine this, a young musician, soaking up anything with a staff and some noteheads, getting excited at the prospect of singing and playing music at this new and foreign thing called 'church', only to have the result of all the psalms and hymns be a bunch of droning, out of pitch, "catch-up" rhythm nonsense.. well, it was awful is the point.
The funny thing is that confirmation class is usually done around the ages of 12-15, where most usually go through pubertal voice change, so the songs sound even worse than they normally would.

(I, too, did a fair bit of music at the time. Basically my entire weekly schedule was filled with school in the mornings and musical classes for violin and piano in the evenings, including attending several orchestras.)
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AWR
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Join Date: Jun 2005
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2006-09-28, 03:50

When did you have time to work in your "How to be a complete bastard class"?

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chucker
 
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2006-09-28, 03:52

Quote:
Originally Posted by AWR View Post
When did you have time to work in your "How to be a complete bastard class"?

I ended up repeating two entire years of school, then taking one year off entirely, so, more than enough time — and it still hasn't helped me.
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faramirtook
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Jersey
 
2006-09-28, 06:05

Both my public Elementary school and Catholic prep school have said it every single day, and then possibly again if at some ceremony. In New Jersey, we are. I was just thinking the same thing yesterday, actually. I think it's ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao
I remember reciting the pledge in grade school. I remember nearly everyone half-assed it. It was a morose chant, no inflection worth speaking of, no emotional content, no patriotism. Just hollow and dreary sounds reverberating off of the drywall.

Agreed.
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joveblue
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2006-09-28, 07:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana View Post
I usually think it's good idea to recite Pledge in grade school as a mean of teaching kids some fundamental values that everyone is supposed to hold.
Sorry but if you have to get kids to recite something by rote to learn fundamental values you're doing something very wrong. And what's more, if you think it will work, you've got another thing coming... No offence...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrao View Post
edit, am I the only one that thought this thread would be about the wood polisher?
Nope!
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Windowsrookie
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2006-09-28, 07:29

Our school only does it on Monday.
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ast3r3x
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2006-09-28, 07:36

The wood polisher works great!

Should the pledge be forced to be said? No. Should they do it every morning? Probably not, but I don't really think it hurts other than boring kids. In 4th grade, our teacher also had us sing My Country, 'Tis of Thee.
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Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2006-09-28, 07:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by joveblue View Post
Sorry but if you have to get kids to recite something by rote to learn fundamental values you're doing something very wrong. And what's more, if you think it will work, you've got another thing coming... No offence...
None taken.

As matter of fact, I used to heckle pledge back in grade school. Besides, I wouldn't think rote learning is the way. That said, pledges, mottos, creeds, or whatever are usually created to somehow exemplify an organization in so few words, and when I went to a summer camp who had their own creed, they did have a discussion to analyze why things were said in that creed, so we all learned something from that, even if we may not agree with it.

When I was in grade school, it was simply that- recitation. The teacher didn't bother to ask kids why do we say "liberty and equality for all", "pledge allegiance to the flag", "one nation, indivisible by all." Therefore, it's actually teacher's fault for not opening up any talk about what pledge means to us as citizen of US.
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BuonRotto
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2006-09-28, 08:48

I'm indifferent. And where is the beer option? Seriously, I don't see any real harm or scary nationalism in having a pledge. I think the sentiment is kind of nice in a hokey way. At the same time, I don't think it's terribly important for teaching our kids anything. I will say that the words "under God" were added in the 50's, break the meter of the whole thing and could easily go. It was kind of silly to to shoehorn it in the first time.

I don't understand the furor over any of this really, either way. I suppose people either want to think or do think that it seems a lot like 1984, but I've never been witness to it being such a nefarious influence. Like others have said, most kids do it without much thought, nor much thought asked of them.
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