[Banana]

As a fan of Apple, I always have had a big cavaet; their upgrade curve. When one looks at x86 computers, it's easy to see how you can easily expand its life by doing vivisection operations now and then, and if you desire, so, can create a custom computer; even one that's not standard in any sense (I for one would like a computer with 2 gb of RAM without a Hard drive ) And I don't need to mention how they can cheaply piece together a high-end workstation for so little money.

But with Apple's lineup, well... I feel marginalized.... Here's some of my wish list before I go further....


Home theater system:

Mini mac with ATI Mobility Radeon 9600XT with DDL support and 30 inch displays. If Apple can toss in a TiVo box and sell it for $3999, I'd bet the sales would go up, up, up and away.

Affordable desktop replacement:

I like 17" screen PB, but don't really need all that fancy features... Really would like a stripped down PB with all the real estate....

Upgrade kits for G4s

For iMac G4s, there should be a circular base that one would attach to the bottom of iMac and plug in oh say, fireport.. in that kit is a stripped down G5 so it'd enable G4s to do G5 stuff and get a little oomph, and another one or two years out of its life.

Motherboard kit for pMac.

This is my biggest cavaet; why doesn't Apple at least sell some of its hardware. Seriously, I would love to have a completely customized computer and yes I am happy to undergo any warranty, any coverage, or any liability or whatever it is.

Now you know something about my wish lists; here's what I'd suggest Apple to do (Hey, Steve Jobs, are you listening? This is for you!)

Linux-ize its hardware.

By that I mean allow certain people (i.e. harddie mac tweakers, design professionals, computer engineers, etc) to have access to special Apple store where they can buy hardware individually and build from their own stratches. To be in, they of course have to sign in NDAs, agreement to surrender copyrights to Apple in exchange for a share of royalties if their mock-ups make it big.

By doing that, Apple'd have lot of people working on a commission and actively contributing to development of hardware, which hopefully help to make it cheaper and more flexible while Apple get to maintain its tight control, which I'm told is what makes Apple so stable.

Just my two cents worth...

Banana Junior 6000

[Kickaha]

$3999??? What the heck are you smoking??? $499 + Tivo = $3999? Er...

That graphics card would cause heat problems in a mini. Won't happen. (Engineering is hard.)

Stripped down PB + real estate. Get a 12" and a flat panel. Best of both worlds.

Upgrade for G4: you're seriously advocating running a second CPU through the FireWire port? Um, sorry, that's impossible. Now, what about a $499 upgrade that gives you another CPU but hooks in through the gigabit Enet port? It's called a Mac mini. Voila.

Mobo kits: Nope, not going to happen. You buy the computer, BTO it down to the minimum, then go nuts. This seems obvious.

Open hardware: fugeddaboudit. Period. Doesn't make business sense.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Kickaha $3999??? What the heck are you smoking??? $499 + Tivo = $3999? Er... That graphics card would cause heat problems in a mini. Won't happen. (Engineering is hard.).

Remmy, I said, mini mac + 30 inch + TiVo. As for heating; external Vcard then. Hide it behind the 30 inch. like anyone'll notice.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Stripped down PB + real estate. Get a 12" and a flat panel. Best of both worlds..

That's an option, but I still want 17"....

Originally Posted by Kickaha Upgrade for G4: you're seriously advocating running a second CPU through the FireWire port? Um, sorry, that's impossible. Now, what about a $499 upgrade that gives you another CPU but hooks in through the gigabit Enet port? It's called a Mac mini. Voila. .

umm... Doh.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Mobo kits: Nope, not going to happen. You buy the computer, BTO it down to the minimum, then go nuts. This seems obvious. .

Tried that. There's still limits. You can't take off video cards, hard drives... there's a minimum and there's a ceiling...

Originally Posted by Kickaha Open hardware: fugeddaboudit. Period. Doesn't make business sense.

Then explain Linux's success. Mozilla's success. Then explain why open source are inherently more stable and bugs are fixed in incredibly short time. Why can't it work for hardware?

[JiGGm]

I'd hate open hardware.

It would run like a PC then, 10% Program 90% Error handling

If you like open hardware, get a PC and some mac emulation software, throw in OS X and enjoy both.
or get a mac and a pc

[Kickaha]

That explains the success of the products, but what about the companies? RedHat is struggling, Netscape essentially folded... Apple is concerned about the health of Apple, not the Mac.

I'm an OSS advocate, but I also know the limitations of it.

Home theater: didn't notice you were including the 30" screen in that price. You can also get an ElGato external box for $300 or so to do the TiVo-esque job controlled by the mini. The pieces are already out there. The fact that they now have a DDL card in the latest PowerBooks gives me hope that it'll migrate to the mini in Rev B. Of course, for HDTV, it already maxes out the resolution, so for a home theater box, it's already more than sufficient.

Mobo: Yeah, it's limited but they sell computers, not mobos. I'm curious - what box are you interested in building that you can't get at least a jump on through the BTO? What would have to be ditched from the unit that gets shipped to you? I'm not interested in theoretical 'well someone *might* want to', I'm interested in what you personally would like to do that you can't. Concrete examples are good.

Oh, and don't feel bad about the mini-as-second-CPU miss, a lot of folks are only now starting to see that utility. Xgrid is Apple's grid computing solution, included free, and for certain tasks (like my research), you can see *insane* speedups. For most computing though (games, iLife, etc), it's not going to help. For $2500 I can get a dual G5 tower, or I can get *five* Mac minis. For my research, the latter will be much faster. For someone running Photoshop, the former would be faster.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Kickaha That explains the success of the products, but what about the companies? RedHat is struggling, Netscape essentially folded... Apple is concerned about the health of Apple, not the Mac. I'm an OSS advocate, but I also know the limitations of it. [\QUOTE] Even so, Apple is floundering behind on the upgrade curve, not to mention the fact that there are so many options that go untapped because they've got their whiteys on too tight. As far as I'm concerned, Apple shouldn't stop someone from buying a mini Mac and ATI Radeon 9600XT and putting it in mini (of course on the understanding that Apple will not be responsible for any screwups thereof) Home theater: didn't notice you were including the 30" screen in that price. You can also get an ElGato external box for $300 or so to do the TiVo-esque job controlled by the mini. The pieces are already out there. The fact that they now have a DDL card in the latest PowerBooks gives me hope that it'll migrate to the mini in Rev B. Of course, for HDTV, it already maxes out the resolution, so for a home theater box, it's already more than sufficient.

The idea is to make it a Apple experience... No need to piece together varying hardware. As someone said above, simply another PC with 90% error handling.

Originally Posted by Kickaha Mobo: Yeah, it's limited but they sell computers, not mobos. I'm curious - what box are you interested in building that you can't get at least a jump on through the BTO? What would have to be ditched from the unit that gets shipped to you? I'm not interested in theoretical 'well someone *might* want to', I'm interested in what you personally would like to do that you can't. Concrete examples are good.

I would for one like to buy a computer without audio hardware. I don't totally need it as I'm deaf and resent paying more money for it. (When I got my custom PC, I shaved off $100 by stripping of audio hardware). Secondly, I think I already hinted above, would like a computer that comes with more RAM and better video card and no H.D, no software pre-installed (It is theoritically more cheaper to use your old OS and upgrade from it than buying it as a part of a package). The idea would to take my old H.D. and put it in my new computer, as there's still space and I believe my H.D. is up to the par for a couple more years. Also, I mentioned having a stripped 17" would be nice, if nothing more than a glorified portable theater.

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Banana The idea is to make it a Apple experience... No need to piece together varying hardware. As someone said above, simply another PC with 90% error handling. [/b]

I agree with you that it'd be wonderful to see a TiVo style Apple widget, but with the mini, it suddenly becomes much more possible than it was with a tower or the iMac. Neither of those was a suitable home entertainment center hub, now the mini is. Let them do it in stages. Besides, I suspect that we'll see PVR solutions for the mini come fast and furious in the next year or so. The TV infrastructure (particularly in the US) is so fragmented that NO one solution will fit even most people's needs, without dropping all the way to analog audio inputs and a coax cable. :/ Once the HDTV changeover gets into full swing, and the DVI/HDVI/FireWire ports become standard as they are supposed to, you'll see that the Mac has been ready for this for a couple of years.

I would for one like to buy a computer without audio hardware.

Ah, that would be impossible. The audio is not a card, it is integrated into the motherboard directly. Even if you bought just the mobo, you'd be getting the same audio hardware.

[b]Also, I mentioned having a stripped 17" would be nice, if nothing more than a glorified portable theater.

Heh.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I agree with you that it'd be wonderful to see a TiVo style Apple widget, but with the mini, it suddenly becomes much more possible than it was with a tower or the iMac. Neither of those was a suitable home entertainment center hub, now the mini is. Let them do it in stages. Besides, I suspect that we'll see PVR solutions for the mini come fast and furious in the next year or so. The TV infrastructure (particularly in the US) is so fragmented that NO one solution will fit even most people's needs, without dropping all the way to analog audio inputs and a coax cable. :/ Once the HDTV changeover gets into full swing, and the DVI/HDVI/FireWire ports become standard as they are supposed to, you'll see that the Mac has been ready for this for a couple of years.

Let's hope that it comes true. Nonetheless the point is; Apple shouldn't stop people from bounding forward. If they want to cut the edge, let them. and better, Apple can learn from them. They'll be the one with bugs, not Apple. That's the picture I have in mind.



[quote=Kickaha]Ah, that would be impossible. The audio is not a card, it is integrated into the motherboard directly. Even if you bought just the mobo, you'd be getting the same audio hardware. [\QUOTE]

Some are integrated. Some are not. I don't know about Apple's motherboard, if audio are always integrated. Nonetheless, I have seen some companies like Dell pushing SoundBlaster cards on people even when the motherboard already has integrated sound hardware (only because SoundBlaster enchances so and so whatever)

[JiGGm]

The MiniMac is the ideal media center, because of 2 things for me, Size and Price

500 dollars is a great deal for the center of your entertainment, when you consider spending about 1000+ for a good reciever with surround, then if you are totally nuts another few thousand for a Plasma TV, you dont want to throw another potential 1500-2000 when you can get the same options and ample hardware (i dont see a need for a G5 driven media center, a G4 is more than enough).

The Mac Mini /minimac (i like to call it the mini-mac, as long as i'm saving up for the big mac lol) is also perfect via size (obviously). Its amazing how fast an opensource MMC project got setup, I think the speed in which these things happen represents the need and public interest in the sector. A lot like how the Xbox was hacked within a month of its release, too many people notice the obvious alternative uses given the hardware provided.

I'm thinking about a Mac-Mini for work, If I could get a Palm type device to run VNC over WiFi (or bluetooth) to display my computer basically via remote, I think that would be real cool, and I'm sure its either in progress or already been accomplished.

[Banana]

JiGGm,

You make some good points... but the question still remains unanswered...

Shouldn't Apple either encourage or at least allow people to hack Macs to their satisfaction. Just for an example, Mozilla rocks not because it's feature-rich but because it's 99% customable. You can dictate how a window would look, what tools you need, and so on, whether you want a minimialist look or a specialized taskbar for serious HTMLing or whatever, Mozilla is up to the job. Then there's OS X. Great one and as someone said, ideal for an entry user yet powerful for even most tech savvy geek. But Apple's hardware just doesn't come into the picture.... That bothers me a lot...

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Banana Let's hope that it comes true. Nonetheless the point is; Apple shouldn't stop people from bounding forward. If they want to cut the edge, let them. and better, Apple can learn from them. They'll be the one with bugs, not Apple. That's the picture I have in mind.

Ah, but you can. Really, I can't think of anything that you can do with a Wintel board that you couldn't do with a Mac board, once you had it in your hot little hands. You're right that you can't buy a plain vanilla Mac mobo, and the upfront cost is higher, but the actual technical possibilities aren't really different.

In fact, one could argue that the much better support for expansion systems on Macs (USB2, FireWire, Gigabit Enet, Bluetooth, WiFi) mean that it is *easier* to expand them with cutting edge hardware than it is with Wintel boxen... just not inside the case. And really, who cares about whether the toys are inside or outside the case as long as they work? Are we not geeks?

Some are integrated. Some are not. I don't know about Apple's motherboard, if audio are always integrated.

Yes, Apple has always integrated the audio. In fact, I can't think of a model that didn't have on-mobo audio. I know others use cards, but Apple has always been integrated, which is why I said it was impossible to get a Mac without it.

[Banana]

And really, who cares about whether the toys are inside or outside the case as long as they work? Are we not geeks?

I am a geek, but I like uncluttered workspace... Would like to fit all my toys in a one box. Besides, internal expansions are cheaper than external, and would help with making macs more affordable and long-lived.

Argh. I suppose Bill Gates has taken hold of my mind.... I'm seeing Windows... woot. gonna go thru one.... *CRASH*

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Banana JiGGm, You make some good points... but the question still remains unanswered... Shouldn't Apple either encourage or at least allow people to hack Macs to their satisfaction. Just for an example, Mozilla rocks not because it's feature-rich but because it's 99% customable. You can dictate how a window would look, what tools you need, and so on, whether you want a minimialist look or a specialized taskbar for serious HTMLing or whatever, Mozilla is up to the job.

Skinning is... trivial, IMNSHO. Then there's the issue of whether an uber-customizable UI is a good thing at all for the enduser. I'm all for customization for specific purposes, and don't believe in the one-size-fits-all philosophy of UI, but I also think that forcing each person to make their own UI because the standard one frankly, well, sucks, has as much reason behind it as forcing everyone to build their own hardware, write their own OS, and create their own apps. UI design is really quite difficult, and developers who spend all their time on making it skinnable, but then just throw up their hands on the actual UI saying "Well, the users can change it however they want, so we don't have to put any thought into it." are just lazy as hell and avoiding the tough problems, instead pushing them onto their customers. (end rant)

I'd much rather use a product whose interface and feature were well thought out for the task, and immutable, than one that is infinitely customizable and packed with widgets that are only tangentially relevant to the process at hand, and only serve to get in the way 99% of the time. eg, Word, IE, Excel, just about anything in the Linux/X11 world...

Technology has to have a *purpose*, or it's just mental masturbation. Skinning falls into the latter category 99.9% of the time, IMO.

Which is a really long way of saying that hacking is a great hobby, and one that I enjoy and dive into regularly, but not something that a consumer oriented company should be concerned with. Macs are *extremely* open to hacking through the well designed and supported expansion technologies.

Besides, if they made it *easy* to hack the mobo, there wouldn't be a *challenge*, now would there? What's the fun in that??

Then there's OS X. Great one and as someone said, ideal for an entry user yet powerful for even most tech savvy geek. But Apple's hardware just doesn't come into the picture.... That bothers me a lot...

I disagree. Don't focus on the mobo, focus on the entire package, and you'll see that they are extremely hackable and flexible, from the OpenFirmware 'BIOS', through the open sourced OS core, the dynamically bound system libraries that allow you to intercept and evolve functionality, to the ubiquitous plugin architectures. And yes, all the expansion ports.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Skinning is... trivial, IMNSHO. .. ... ..I'd much rather use a product whose interface and feature were well thought out for the task, and immutable, than one that is infinitely customizable and packed with widgets that are only tangentially relevant to the process at hand, and only serve to get in the way 99% of the time. eg, Word, IE, Excel, just about anything in the Linux/X11 world... Technology has to have a *purpose*, or it's just mental masturbation. Skinning falls into the latter category 99.9% of the time, IMO. ... ... ... Besides, if they made it *easy* to hack the mobo, there wouldn't be a *challenge*, now would there? What's the fun in that??

I for one never said anything about skinning.

Secondly, you argue a good point about everything must have a purpose or it become simply a tin can. So I suppose I'll rephrase my question... In Apple's lineup, are there too big a gap between each other, leaving out a siginificant percentage of market in cold? An example would be iBook and PB... People complains there's little difference, then there's pMacs where people bitch that theres only one expansion slot, and so forth. After reading those posts, I reasoned that Apple needed to expand their lineup somehow...

Originally Posted by Kickaha I disagree. Don't focus on the mobo, focus on the entire package, and you'll see that they are extremely hackable and flexible, from the OpenFirmware 'BIOS', through the open sourced OS core, the dynamically bound system libraries that allow you to intercept and evolve functionality, to the ubiquitous plugin architectures. And yes, all the expansion ports.

Huh. Funny. Nobody ever mentioned that... But even then, we're still talking softwares and firmwares. They're good only to a point. Hardwares is the one that dictate the floor and ceiling of a system's performance....

[Kickaha]

Originally Posted by Banana I for one never said anything about skinning.

Actually, you brought up Mozilla's customizable UI as part of the reason for its success. *shrug*

Secondly, you argue a good point about everything must have a purpose or it become simply a tin can. So I suppose I'll rephrase my question... In Apple's lineup, are there too big a gap between each other, leaving out a siginificant percentage of market in cold? An example would be iBook and PB... People complains there's little difference, then there's pMacs where people bitch that theres only one expansion slot, and so forth. After reading those posts, I reasoned that Apple needed to expand their lineup somehow...

Whaaaaaa? PowerMacs have three PCI Express slots, not one. Methinks you're getting bad information.

Huh. Funny. Nobody ever mentioned that... But even then, we're still talking softwares and firmwares. They're good only to a point. Hardwares is the one that dictate the floor and ceiling of a system's performance....

True, but between the PCI, FireWire, USB, Bluetooth, Gigabit Enet, WiFi, DVI, PCCard (on PowerBooks), etc, etc, etc, can you find me something that you can expand on a Wintel machine that you can't on a Mac? I'm sure there's *something*, but for the 99.9% of the market that really counts for sales, does it really matter? (5.1 audio is pretty much a no-go on anything but a PowerMac, but I suspect that will be changing soon.)

From what I see on the Wintel side, many expansion additions via PCI are just to *get* the expansion opportunities available as standard on the Mac side, such as FireWire.

[dfiler]

I've upgraded every mac that I've ever owned.

SE --> 4 megs of ram and 3 external SCSIs!!!
25mhz quadra 610 --> 100mhz!
PPC603e-based powerbase 180 --> G3 ???mhz
And most recently, dual 450 G4 --> dual 1400mhz!

I've also upgraded the video cards in these machines:
rageIIc --> voodoo I --> voodoo III
rage 128 pro --> radeon 8500 --> radeon 9800 pro

Also upgraded:
486dx card for the quadra 610 (yes, an entire PC in my mac!)
usb cards
firewire cards
ATA cards
SCSI cards
sound cards
internal hard drives
external hard drives
internal super drive
external cdrw
iSight
airport card

The above list is just a portion of upgrades to my Macs.
If anything... my macs can be upgraded well past the lifespan of equivalent PCs.

Oh, kickaha... you probably ment to say PCI-X not PCI Express. Powermacs don't have pci express yet. Not that this is a problem though. There's yet to be anything that can take advantage of PCI express.

[Kickaha]

D'oh! You're right, sorry, I meant to say PCI-X. Stupid acronyms all sound alike these days.

VAX, PDP, COBOL... dammit, *those* were acronyms!

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Kickaha Whaaaaaa? PowerMacs have three PCI Express slots, not one. Methinks you're getting bad information.

Sorry, I meant only one drive bay open. Yes three PCI (or was that two PCI and one PCIX.. or was that three PCIX or oh the hell with it)

Originally Posted by Kickaha True, but between the PCI, FireWire, USB, Bluetooth, Gigabit Enet, WiFi, DVI, PCCard (on PowerBooks), etc, etc, etc, can you find me something that you can expand on a Wintel machine that you can't on a Mac? I'm sure there's *something*, but for the 99.9% of the market that really counts for sales, does it really matter? (5.1 audio is pretty much a no-go on anything but a PowerMac, but I suspect that will be changing soon.) From what I see on the Wintel side, many expansion additions via PCI are just to *get* the expansion opportunities available as standard on the Mac side, such as FireWire.

Oh, there's plenty... For starters, there's that card to support the transporter engine, then there's another one that drives the warp drive, and of course we need a dedicated processor for life support system... and so... *rambling and wanders off*

[Banana]

[quote=dfiler]I've upgraded every mac that I've ever owned.

SE --> 4 megs of ram and 3 external SCSIs!!!
25mhz quadra 610 --> 100mhz!
PPC603e-based powerbase 180 --> G3 ???mhz
And most recently, dual 450 G4 --> dual 1400mhz!

I've also upgraded the video cards in these machines:
rageIIc --> voodoo I --> voodoo III
rage 128 pro --> radeon 8500 --> radeon 9800 pro

Also upgraded:
486dx card for the quadra 610 (yes, an entire PC in my mac!)
usb cards
firewire cards
ATA cards
SCSI cards
sound cards
internal hard drives
external hard drives
internal super drive
external cdrw
iSight
airport card

The above list is just a portion of upgrades to my Macs.
If anything... my macs can be upgraded well past the lifespan of equivalent PCs.[\QUOTE]

Well... then where's the heck the library on that?! Is it a coveted secret where I must spill my hand and put on a black sack to be accepted to know the secret of tweaking macs??! With PCs, it's easy for one to get education in how to tweak PCs (I mainly taught myself, with occasional help from some more tech savvy friends) but can't find a comparable info on Macs...

annnddd where do one get the hardwares? Last time I checked at apple store, they wouldn't sell hardwares. You either buy a computer or nothing.

[dfiler]

You might try actually looking...

Google: 'mac upgrades'
or
Google: 'mac video cards'

Wanna overclock your mac... you guessed it:
Google: 'overclock mac'

[Kickaha]

That's because you can buy it anywhere, Apple uses standard components these days. Want RAM? Go to Crucial or anywhere else and buy the same RAM you would for a PC, slap it in. Want a CPU upgrade? Depending on the model, there are companies that will do that for you. Want a new video card? Pop it in. Hard drive? Same.

The days of proprietary Apple hardware are long gone.

Heck, I went to Best Buy last time I wanted a hard drive upgrade, bought a WD off the shelf, took it home, popped it in, and had it up and going in about 30 seconds.

The PowerMacs are *MADE* to be opened up and fiddled with, by just opening the side. The iMacs have four screws on the back, and the entire things opens up. The iBook and PowerBooks have access panels for RAM and such, and on the non-backlit keyboards, you can access everything by just popping off the keyboard.

Methinks your info is a few years old.

I think the reason you can't find any library of how to do it is that is so freaking *easy* that it's just assumed anyone can do it. (Oh yeah, it's also in the manual you get with the unit... ) And if you *do* need help: http://www.info.apple.com/usen/cip/ I went to www.apple.com, clicked on the Support tab at the top, and found the DIY Guide link on the right side.

[W. Gallagher]

Seems to me Banana is playing with you all.
First he claims to be an "Apple fan..."after listing his system as a Commodore 64 (I had/have a Commodore 64; back when you had to code because there was no software available; - and Banana is not a Commodore). How serious can he be?
Then essentially he goes into a laundry list of every reason a lot of us switched over to Apple from the “build,debug,servicepac3,crash,startover MS-bloated” world. Apple/Macs just run. If you follow Banana’s 1'st opening barrage, he's defined the PC/MS so-called lifestyle. If that's what he wants, that's what he deserves.
And as I read through the thread, No Matter What Suggestion You Come Up With, Banana finds a reason for “Why Not”. And then leads you on further.
And complains about having to pay for audio hardware/software because it's included and he's deaf. My advice for Banana: -Go find one of the original IBM-PC XT or AT's w/black& white(or green) monitor. Lot's of expandability there. And it only came with a “beep”. Come on Banana, get real. And if you ever have time from all of your complaints of everything Apple, you might want to check out the way most of us feel about Apple and mostly live our lives, without the nightmare of MS in this SFGate.com article entitled, “Why Does Windows Still Suck?”
http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

[Kickaha]

Actually, WG, there are millions of people who have the same bad information that Banana is expressing here, and really do believe it. Education is FUNDamental. Banana hasn't been truly trollish, has brought up points I've heard before, and seems to be willing to listen to reason. I'm willing to play along as long as that continues.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by W. Gallagher Seems to me Banana is playing with you all. First he claims to be an "Apple fan..."after listing his system as a Commodore 64 (I had/have a Commodore 64; back when you had to code because there was no software available; - and Banana is not a Commodore). How serious can he be? Then essentially he goes into a laundry list of every reason a lot of us switched over to Apple from the “build,debug,servicepac3,crash,startover MS-bloated” world. Apple/Macs just run. If you follow Banana’s 1'st opening barrage, he's defined the PC/MS so-called lifestyle. If that's what he wants, that's what he deserves. And as I read through the thread, No Matter What Suggestion You Come Up With, Banana finds a reason for “Why Not”. And then leads you on further. And complains about having to pay for audio hardware/software because it's included and he's deaf. My advice for Banana: -Go find one of the original IBM-PC XT or AT's w/black& white(or green) monitor. Lot's of expandability there. And it only came with a “beep”. Come on Banana, get real. And if you ever have time from all of your complaints of everything Apple, you might want to check out the way most of us feel about Apple and mostly live our lives, without the nightmare of MS in this SFGate.com article entitled, “Why Does Windows Still Suck?” http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

The truth of this matter is; as Kickada said, my info is few years old. I'm still in days of Apple properiety.

I am fan of Apple in same sense as a couch potato is fan of a NFL team.

My last mac I owned was a Mac IIcx, and I went over to PC only for school, don't like it still. and I'd like to switch back and wanna some reassurations.

As for my why nots, isn't this forum for speculating?

Not only that, I also find myself wondering about Mac clones back in late 90s. My understanding is that Apple pulled the plugs on those companies not because they were unsuccessful (they were too successful), but because they were essentially eating Apple's market, not expanding as Apple expected to. Now economic ramifications aside, I'm told those Mac clones were very good piece of hardware and even a better deal than what you'd get thru Apple. Of course, it's probably changed by now, as explained above.


Last note: Banana= http://www-i5.informatik.rwth-aachen.../bloom_add.gif

Commodore= I actually do own it, and posted it here becuase I thought it'd be funny considering how others are posting their powerhorses and so forth.