[chucker]

If you've been using Windows or living under a rock, you may not yet have heard of Panic's newest software, Coda. Take a few minutes to look at it; it's really pretty impressive. It's basically a combination of HTML/JS text editor, file manager, file transfer tool, terminal, CSS editor and API reference, all in one and the same window.

Which, to me, begs the question if that's a good thing or not. So, poll upcoming.

[jdcfsu]

Isn't that what Dreamweaver has been for years?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by jdcfsu Isn't that what Dreamweaver has been for years?

Dreamweaver is mainly (though not completely) WYSIWYG-driven, whereas Coda (aside from the CSS editing and other guides) requires handcoding. Dreamweaver is also several times the price tag.

Also, this is nothing like iWeb, RapidWeaver or Sandvox, because those all rely on templates. Coda is for working from scratch.

So, it's closer to Dreamweaver, but not quite.

[Fahrenheit]

Wow, the best bit was seeing the price.

Ouch.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Farenheit Wow, the best bit was seeing the price. Ouch.

Not an excuse to pirate it.

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Farenheit Wow, the best bit was seeing the price. Ouch.

Why the knee-jerk reaction to the price? It's really not that expensive for someone who actually works on web sites for a living. It would pay for itself in just a few hours of work, at most.

<insert standard question about developers deserving payment for hard work>

[jdcfsu]

Originally Posted by chucker Dreamweaver is mainly (though not completely) WYSIWYG-driven, whereas Coda (aside from the CSS editing and other guides) requires handcoding. Dreamweaver is also several times the price tag.

I guess it's all in how you use it. I've used Dreamweaver almost exclusively as a hand coding tool for years now. As for price, at $79 Coda would be perfect if I wern't already a Dreamweaver user.

[ast3r3x]

I've just been using it for an about an hour to see what I think of it, and as of now I'll use it longer to see if it meets my needs. It seems like it might have enough benefits and workflow improvements to kill my BBEdit+Transmit relationship. I like that it is a combined FTP and editor specifically for web oriented programming. It is a little quicker than switching back and forth, and I am used to this style from using EditPlus at work.

I haven't decided about the CSSEdit style CSS editor, but it might at least help in making tweaking easier to do. I think this app could really become great, especially once I get the key commands down.

There are a few things I'd like to see added, which I will suggest, but as of now, for a 1.0 app, this is great. Panic is something else, let me tell you. Plus, how slick Coda's website?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Farenheit Wow, the best bit was seeing the price. Ouch.

Are you fucking kidding? $70 is a deal for that. I'm going to recommend we get a site license where I work. I expected $100, and I would pay that too. The early adopter and the Transmit discount is super nice of them.

Originally Posted by Brad Why the knee-jerk reaction to the price? It's really not that expensive for someone who actually works on web sites for a living. It would pay for itself in just a few hours of work, at most. <insert standard question about developers deserving payment for hard work>

Exactly.

Originally Posted by jdcfsu I guess it's all in how you use it. I've used Dreamweaver almost exclusively as a hand coding tool for years now. As for price, at $79 Coda would be perfect if I wern't already a Dreamweaver user.

Exactly. Dreamweaver is so heavy and I don't use any of the WYSIWYG features. I've been using TextMate + CSSEdit + Transmit forever now, and this just replaced all three. (Of course, I'll still keep the old three around for heavy lifting on in any of those three fields.)

That said, my jaw was gaping for about 10 minutes as I poured over the Coda site, and proceeded to get out my credit card. It's a Web Development IDE. I don't even know why I didn't realize this need before, but now that it's here, I'll probably never be able to live without it.

Well done, Panic. Well done.

[hmurchison]

I like the idea of efficiency. If I can do most tasks well and in one window then I'm all for it.

I wonder if they'll add templates in a future version. The price is right. People can't forget that we're talking about the amalgamation of like 5 or six apps here all neatly integrated.

[Ryan]

I've always wanted to build something like this, after I learn how to program more than basic Java. Like many, I use the SubEthaEdit+CSSEdit+Transmit combination, and, as others have said, this replaces all three.

[jdcfsu]

Simply put, this app is wonderful. I've used Dreamweaver for the since DW4 and this thing is everything I've ever needed and nothing more. The hook, of course, is that DW CS3 arrived on the truck today.

[scratt]

If only it had minimal WYSIWYG for the lazy ones out here... Then I'd use it.

[Fahrenheit]

Screw it, I take back what I said. I have tried this and - its awesome. I too, even though I was making a shitty site with a tiny bit of coding (ask chucker and magsafe, I was an emotional wreck) - would have beneffited from this. I guess the price shock was from the fact that I don't do it professionally, but most web designers or coders will get their money back in about half an hour....

[Bryson]

Originally Posted by chucker Not an excuse to pirate it.

Who suggested that it was?

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Bryson Who suggested that it was?

The person I was addressing knows what I'm referring to.

[drewprops]

Wow. I like it.
Rushing out the door right now but will look at it later today... wondering if it has a Live Web Preview like CSSEdit.... that's become an important feature for me.

But the price?
It's a bloody STEAL.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by scratt If only it had minimal WYSIWYG for the lazy ones out here... Then I'd use it.

There's simply no such thing as accurate WYSIWYG on the web. Coda's preview mode is all you should need to see.

Furthermore, Coda uses WebKit. Dreamweaver uses something homegrown at Adobe that doesn't portray Firefox, Safari, or IE accurately 100% of the time. (Although, CS3 might use WebKit as well... since Apollo does.)

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Dreamweaver uses something homegrown at AdobeOpera

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by chucker

I stand corrected.



(Course, that still means it gets IE wrong)

PS do you know if CS3 is different? What with Apollo using WebKit and all.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kraetos (Course, that still means it gets IE wrong)

Yup. I would actually prefer if Coda could preview both WebKit and Gecko (though embedding Mozilla in a Cocoa app sure isn't easy right now). Embedding Opera requires a licensing deal, so Panic is unlikely to ever do that, and it really doesn't matter as much. Embedding WinIE is, well, near-impossible. I suppose they could do a deal with CodeWeavers (CrossOver)…

[Moogs]

Good call Chucker. I was hoping someone had already started this thread. I just found out about Coda today... looks really impressive! I have gotten into the habit of mostly hand-coding and I think I would really enjoy this. Especially if I can master CSS image rollovers (can never seem to remember all the tricks required). Basically all I'd be missing is canned Javascript stuff. I wonder if they'll offer a plugin / go that route?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by chucker Yup. I would actually prefer if Coda could preview both WebKit and Gecko (though embedding Mozilla in a Cocoa app sure isn't easy right now). Embedding Opera requires a licensing deal, so Panic is unlikely to ever do that, and it really doesn't matter as much. Embedding WinIE is, well, near-impossible. I suppose they could do a deal with CodeWeavers (CrossOver)…

Yep. Which is the #1 reason I keep Parallels around.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Kraetos There's simply no such thing as accurate WYSIWYG on the web. Coda's preview mode is all you should need to see.

What I want to be able to do is edit and format text, layout images etc. in an editor, rather than having to code it.
Other than that Coda is perfect. I am playing with a copy now.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by scratt What I want to be able to do is edit and format text, layout images etc. in an editor, rather than having to code it. Other than that Coda is perfect. I am playing with a copy now.

Fair enough.

I just can't stand using Dreamweaver. It's so bloated...

[Moogs]

Yah I think the split view makes all the difference compared to something like BBEdit, which is all buttons and fields and no built-in previewing AFAIK. I know some people swear by it but I've never liked BBEdit.

What would be really cool is if Panic bought / hired the guy who did CSSEdit, and replace the Coda CSS engine and features with CSSEdit. Just blend it right into Coda. That way you can use the X-Ray thing and all the rest without switching apps.

CSSEdit plus some ability to drop common JS objects into your code, and you've replaced DW for the most part. And with a much more nimble, visually elegant product. I hope Coda 2.0 follows this path. I could see myself using it almost exclusively if they did. And I'd gladly pay $149 for it too in that case. Big IF though.

[jdcfsu]

Originally Posted by Kraetos PS do you know if CS3 is different? What with Apollo using WebKit and all.

Dreamweaver CS3 is almost a carbon copy of CS2 unfortunately. The UI hasn't changed and there really aren't too many new features (other then some AJAX support and a feature to import graphics directly from Photoshop (neither of which I've figured out how to use yet). Other then running at full speed (which is a blessing) nothing has really changed, which is why playing with Coda was a treat and a curse at the same time.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by jdcfsu Dreamweaver CS3 is almost a carbon copy of CS2 unfortunately. The UI hasn't changed and there really aren't too many new features (other then some AJAX support and a feature to import graphics directly from Photoshop (neither of which I've figured out how to use yet). Other then running at full speed (which is a blessing) nothing has really changed, which is why playing with Coda was a treat and a curse at the same time.

Ah. You mean Dreamweaver 8?

IMHO, there hasn't been a worthwhile version of Dreamweaver since MX.

[jdcfsu]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Ah. You mean Dreamweaver 8?

Touche.

[Majost]

John Gruber has a cursory overview article up now. He makes a decent point about the fact that spaces may manage all these apps/windows/documents in a completely different-yet-also-effective method.

I'm going to try it out for a little bit, but it's going to have to be pretty awesome to usurp TextMate for me. Of course, so much of my web development is Rails or PHP that it's hard to sacrifice the amazingly nimble syntax coding and macros and snippets of TM.