Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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This is not a good thing at all....
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Last edited by Moogs : 2005-11-19 at 03:58. |
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Yarp
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Road Warrior
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So like... if a case of Xenuphobia begins to rise in japan, will they convert to Shintology?
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Student extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canberra, Australia
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Xenophobia on the rise? Maybe. More likely it's a bunch of racist twats who have decided to make some noise with the recent protests in China and South Korea, and will crawl back into their holes once the controversy again recedes.
The above books and quotes seem WAY outside the mainstream to me. It's no secret that much of Japan's culture was imported from China, and Chinese and Korean culture is still popular in Japan. The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass. |
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Antimatter Man
Join Date: May 2004
Location: that interweb thing
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Nor is it a secret that the textbook-sanitizing-revisionists still make waves in an otherwise intelligent population.
You'd think they thought they were in Kansas or something. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
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This kind of crap is also subtly and not so subtly encouraged by the respective governments for national consumption and political posturing. Same story everwhere really, France, USA, Australia... It's very discouraging to me. I hate fvking politics and politicians, in spite of its inherent importance in our lives. THAT said, I do think that the Japanese - for reasons of geography, history and culture - are particularly racist as a whole. Call a Japanese an Asian and they think you've shagged their mum and taken pictures. |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Exactly.
My point is that the Japanese population has always had xenophobic overtones (more so than here and most other westernized countries IMO). Their history has some ugly chapters written in it, and the chapters are often started when popular leaders in the community begin to accept and promote xenophobic principles. The fact that one of the leading newspapers is not shooting this crap down, and that any of the academics at all are in favor of it, smacks of the old days. Cleansing the text books of known attrocities that no one would've questioned a few years ago, is also not a good sign. Japanese are notorious group-thinkers. Sometimes it works in their favor (when all the economic ideas and forces are good ones), sometimes not. Maybe it's nothing; we'll see how these comics and comments continue to sell / grow in number over the next few months. When things go wrong economically and otherwise in Japan, they are not known to be rational people even though they always appear to be very calm and polite people (other than the flamboyant talk show hosts I mean). ...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Space Pirate
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
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"Group Thinking" is typical among culturally/racially cohesive nations. Those of us from "melting pot" nations are wholly unsuited to see through the eyes of those nations until we tune down to the narrowed viewpoint of our own social subgroups. While there is purpose in the unity of a People of common origin, there is great danger as well. Denying the atrocities their countrymen committed in World War 2 is pure weakness - confronting your misdeeds and tearing down your own falsehoods is the path to strength of character. Let's hope that the Japanese who know that lesson outnumber those who do not.
But I'm not counting on it. Remember, people be stupid. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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it doesn't really matter what country you are from... every country downplays it's atrocities... this isn't isolated to japan only....... the same thing happens in most places..... textbooks and school education plays up the good parts and downplays if not ignores the bad parts.
japanese textbook, chinese textbook, british textbook, american textbook.... it doesn't matter.... the only countries where is is particularly bad is countries like China or North Korea, where it isn't a matter of downplaying, but all out denial elimination from history, to the point that the majority of the population doesn't even know what you are talking about when you mention parts of their own history. Germany had WWII America has had Vietnam, Trail of Tears, and now the war in the middle east Romania has had it's issues with the ethnic roma minority Many central and south american countries have their own issues So do many african nations. blah blah blah blah blah it would be nice to see some country take the lead and promote the world before their own country for a change.... i don't consider myself a citizen of one particular country, but a citizen of the world (i have three passports)..... more countries need to start supporting such a view the world is not a "Us vs Them", but a "We".... it's a shame that it takes things like the tsunami in southeast asia for us to behave in such a manner.... I find it particularly amusing when I hear my Chinese students bitch and moan about the Japanese revisionism, yet they haven't a clue about their own revisionism..... if they had any clue what happened prior to the great march, the cultural revolution and tiananmen square, they wouldn't be as quick to voice such an opinion. since i have never lived or visited japan, it's hard for me to criticize the validity of such an article, but i have found that many of the articles published in western newspapers have become particularly weak journalistically.... much of it has moved away from if not entirely eliminated investigative journalism and instead become mostly of a collective outlet of public relations releases where they take news from official "spokespeople" i find that many of the articles i read in western newspapers about china reak of PR spiel given to them by the chinese government.....much of journalism from mainstream sources has become increasely one-sided. |
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is the next Chiquita
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Do you think that Asia is in same political climate as Europe of 1800s and early 1900s?
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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Well, political climate can mean a lot of things. Obviously the economic frameworks are very different but I wonder if the frame of reference that the individual peoples in each nation use, to view the other nations, hasn't changed much in character. Truthfully I have not kept up on the political maneuverings in those countries of late (the official policy decisions, etc), but in general the article struck me because as much as I've been around the Japanese, I never would've expected things like text book cleansing of WWII atrocities, when they have been so well documented, even in Japan.
I should note that aside from being very group-think oriented, they are also very introspective in a lot of ways, so it's all the more surprising in that respect. I might expect a country that is not known for any sort of philosophical or introspective tendancies to approach their own sordid history in this way, but not necessarily Japan. Turkey is a perfect example, with their wholesale denial of the Armenian Genocide, which took the lives over over a million people and is well documented ... I don't think anyone would claim Turkish society or cultural history shows evidence of a lot of introspective or philosophical tendancies (the way Japan or even China do). My opinion of course, but it's one example. ...into the light of a dark black night. Last edited by Moogs : 2005-11-19 at 16:07. |
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On Pacific time
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Moderator's Pub
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The Japanese travel a lot - at least they do in the US. You'd think that the experience of travel and immersing themselves in other cultures would open their minds (and hearts) in many ways.
BUT... the last time I was up at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon, a Japanese tour group was there. Japanese tourists were everywhere - always together in groups, whether small or large. I tried several times to make eye contact and say a friendly 'hello', but they persistently avoided meeting anyone's eyes. It was as if the rest of us at the lodge and on the hiking trails were invisible or nonexistent as far as they were concerned. I found the whole thing a very strange experience, mainly because I am a friendly, outgoing person who generally encounters no difficulty in striking up conversations with strangers. They didn't converse or have social interaction with anyone but people in their own group. They stayed together exclusively. The bus on which they traveled was operated by a company solely dedicated to transporting Japanese tourists all over the US and Canada, using only Japanese (but of course English-speaking) drivers and tour guides. It was as if everything possible had been done to *insulate* the Japanese tourists from any contact and interaction with the people living/working in the visited areas, and with other tourists frequenting these places. I found this 'insulation' odd, disturbing, as well as rather scary and even insulting. It was as if contact with ordinary Americans like myself would somehow contaminate and soil these Japanese tourists. And what's even scarier is the thought that 'these' are the Japanese who are travelling the world and supposedly experiencing other cultures. They may be travelling, but they're doing so in a carefully-wrought glass bubble. Very sad. I hope that my perception is *not* accurate, but I fear that it may well be. *sigh* |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
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Well, Shinto is rather unique, AFAIK, in that xenophobia is built into its fabric starting with the creation myth. According to Shinto, Japan is the *only* real land that exists. Anyone or anything from across the sea is merely an illusion, a dream. They're not really people. And it can't hurt to hate, kill, rape or mangle an *illusion*, right?
It takes the entire dehumanization of one's enemy to a very fundamental level. Anyone not Japanese is not human. I'm not saying that this is an attitude that is explicitly common, but if it's been a part and parcel of the most ancient religion, it has to have some pretty serious ramifications as undercurrents of the society. |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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That's a good point. I hadn't even thought of it in the Shinto context since xenophobia usually tends to be discussed in a political light rather than a religious one (current disconnects with the Muslim world and western society not withstanding). I think you are correct in your assessment that it may not be outwardly demonstrated all the time, but still the undercurrent is very alive and well probably.
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Really, if anything, the subject is exaggerated. Downplayed it is not. |
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Travels via TARDIS
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
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I studied German in high school and from my teacher and other readings it was made pretty apparent that the Germans, in fact, dislike their involvement in WWII more than anyone else. Of course the grass always looks greener on the other side, but from my perception of Germany, some days I wish we here in the United States would learn a few lessons from them. That being said, my understanding is that Turkish immigrants in Germany continue to have ... trouble. Is that accurate, chucker, or am I misinformed? Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter. |
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No, I would rather say that this is a traditional case of clashing cultures. As an example: homeschooling is almost unheard-of in Germany, and private schools are unusual as well, so as a result, almost every child ends up in a public school. In some areas, this causes classes where 50 or more percent of the children aren't German, and possibly hardly even speak any German. How's that possible? Well, a large part of it is (here we go again) terrible parenting. While parents do want their children to "live a better life" in Germany (where standards of living are amongst the highest in the world, quite unlike in Turkey), they don't seem too keen on actually bringing up an effort to make that realistic. They continue to speak Turkish to their children (whether they're babies, preteens, teenagers or adults) and thus also encourage the children to speak Turkish to their peers. I'm not pulling this out of my ass as I have experienced this first-hand over the years. When Turks are with each other, they speak Turkish -- it's just more natural for them. That would be fine if it didn't cause a social left between Germans and Turks. In the end, the Turks complain they are being treated as "outsiders", but that's exactly what they make themselves (again, largely due to their parents): how are German children supposed to "get along" with Turkish children that often hardly speak any German, let alone want to participate (or could) in German culture? The talk of "making German multicultural" is idealistic and quixotic, as it totally misses the point. It's not about changing religion or anything like that (we do have many mosques). It's about them learning to accept that they are in a different situation now, and that they need to adapt. Some succeed. Some become famous, successful, rich, etc. But the huge majority doesn't even give themselves a chance at getting to that point. They are crippling their own future. |
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Member
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especially since the Japanese stole a chunk of Chinese as their own. 3-types of writing in Japanese... Insane, who would want such a complex language?
To this day, Japanese history textbooks still do not admit any guilt in the world war. Their textbooks says this: China is an apple, is it wrong to take a fruit off a tree? Well yeah, when over 10 million are killed for it. wtf mate? I don't have anything against the Japanese, except when they are racist like that, I seriously don't understand why people would hate others so much based on only their skin and background. Perhaps it's just something genetically encoded in us to naturally want to stir things up, and what else is better to stir things up than race and gender? |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Fairfax, VA
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One thing, however, appears to be accurate.
"It describes China as a source of disease" --that limited phrase. I have read that the bird flu potential pandemic and pretty much each year's new flu strain originate in China because people live in too close proximity to their livestock- diseases can jump the species barrier more easily. Also people spit phlegm right onto the streets all the time. This was thought to be responsible for the spread of SARS. The Chinese government has in past years been launching huge campaigns against public expectorating! These characteristics are similar to the West up to approximately the year 1650. It has nothing to do with being inherently inferior, just about development and adopting better practices. But we better help them attain better practices because our health is at risk! If anybody actually has credentials in a public health related field feel free to correct me. |
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Student extraordinaire
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canberra, Australia
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Of course WWII was terrible and shocking, and the Japanese military commited many horrific war crimes.
But I don't think you should use WWII as an argument for *modern day* Japan being racist (more so than any other nation). Also, if Shinto has influenced society so much, how come Japan is supposedly more racist than America - home of evangelical Christianity. These racist, fringe views which are given publicity seem very similar to racist, fringe views in my own country and I'm sure your countries. I have yet to see real evidence that ordinary Japanese are "more racist" than other people, or that these views are significantly more mainstream than elsewhere. The sky was deep black; Jesus still loved me. I started down the alley, wailing in a ragged bass. Last edited by Barto : 2005-11-19 at 20:10. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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What we should be most afraid of is the robots. Japan is secretly building giant robot armies. Sure, they say they are for building cars and playing music, but that's all a front. The robot wars are coming.
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Travels via TARDIS
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
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It's actually very interesting to see your description of the problem, because I'd say that's very much the same problem we're having here in the United States with Mexican immigrants; they come looking for a better life, but due to language barriers, it's very hard for them to integrate into our culture. Unfortunately, there is little to no effort on behalf of the immigrants or their children to learn English as their first language. In fact, they would rather sue our school systems and require that we have classes taught in Spanish to cater to them, instead of putting forth the effort to learn English. It pisses me off to no end; you can't walk into another country and automatically expect them to change their language standards to cater to you---you should adapt to the new culture, not expect (and force) the culture to adapt to you. I've nothing against them as people, I just am very displeased with the fact that lawsuits filed by immigrants are forcing our hard-earned tax dollars to be put to use to have schools specifically taught in Spanish, including "English as a Second Language" (ESL) courses. It seems like a terrible double-standard. I've no problem with them being here, but I don't think we should forcibly change our schools because of them. Everyone should learn English here, our own dealings with ourselves would be much easier. I really don't want us to have to come to "everything must be in both English and Spanish" like Quebec, it just seems like a lot of extra overhead, especially given the size of the United States... but unless we can change the standards that are going right now, that's where we'll end up... I realize my stance isn't very friendly, and would cause some hardship up front, but I think in the long run, it would alleviate some of the problems we have here now. Alas, "ideal" and "real" are often vastly different things... and now I probably sound racist, but I promise I'm not... Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter. |
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But try and explain that to them; obviously they (tend to) feel that if they accept American values, they will lose their own; if they learn English, they forget some Spanish, etc. It's a question of identity. Quote:
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Travels via TARDIS
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
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Part of this is because they're often overworked, and don't have the time or resources to commit to learning English or maintaining a cultural identiy through any means other than just the Spanish language. This is another subject, addressed below... Quote:
It actually bothers me sometimes... I feel like they're exploited for their willingness to work lower-wage jobs. In fact, they're often paid under the table. Sure, prices of various food products would go up if they were officially on payrolls, but I'd be willing to pay that extra price at the grocery store if I knew it meant that all workers involved, from farm to store, were legitimately paid, and paid decently for their work. Then again, the subject of wage equality is a sore one for me. I think that a lot of people (police, fireman, teachers, construction workers, farm hands, etc) are not paid what their services are worth. I work as a software tester and make more (as a co-op, not even a full employee) than a lot of them will ever earn on an hourly basis. Their jobs are much more important to our economy than mine, even if IBM does make more profit off of their products. That discrepancy gets to me, because I shouldn't be earning more than them. My services just are not as important as theirs, and it's unfortunate that our economy doesn't reflect that the way I feel it should. OK, I'm done. Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter. |
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Since I agree with pretty much every of your points, I have nothing to add.
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Travels via TARDIS
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Earthsea
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I have a few friends who are all kinds of obsessed with Japanese culture, but then again, this view may not be one they get to see very often. I of course haven't asked them about their knowledge pertaining to how the Japanese culture sees the rest of the world---it's probably not something that's covered in any kind of depth... most of the material would be about how their culture works so we can understand them, instead of delving further into understanding how they perceive us. Well, that's a pretty useless blurb, so I digress... My optimism is kicking in here, so bear with me. There is a huge language barrier between people who speak Japanese and those of us who speak English. It is much, much larger than between western (most latin-based) languages. Since their languages requires special symbols for every word and concept, and arbitrarily assigned pronunciations, it is very hard to learn and interact with a language that uses a set number of characters combined in different ways to create words and pronunciations. From a psychological standpoint, the concepts are very different. Most people who speak English and learn Japanese will only ever reach the proficiency of about a 2nd or 3rd grade student in Japan. That's how hard it is for us to learn Japanese, and I expect it to be similarly difficult the other way around... perhaps a little easier, but no telling to what degree. That being said, I can see why it would be plausible for the Japanese to travel in groups with specialized tour groups just because they can then have everything communicated to them in Japanese, versus requiring that every traveler understand English, which may be beyond the average Japanese citizen---I'm just speculating. If you went to a country where you couldn't possibly communicate with people due to language barriers, wouldn't you be the least bit ashamed or embarrassed? I mean, I'm not that good at speaking German, but most Germans can speak fairly decent English if need be, so I'd at least feel a little more comfortable in Germany. To put yourself in their shoes, you'd have to travel to somewhere where almost *nobody* can speak English. English being predominant as it is, it's hard to come up with countries where that'd be true (Africa would be a good example, but there you'll find cultural differences that extend far beyond language barriers), but I hope you can see my point... I'd like to believe that a type of shyness or shame driven by the language barriers between the tourists and yourself was more the reason that they shied away from you. Just a thought... and I hope, for many reasons, that it's more accurate than the "xenophobia" theory... Apparently I call the cops when I see people litter. |
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Formerly Roboman, still
awesome Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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Xenophobia is awful, but we're kidding ourselves if we think it is only relegated to Japan. I told my dad that I was considering heading abroad for college, and he immediately started talking about unsafe the rest of the world was. I was relatively shocked by some of his comments...it was as if he felt any nation in the world besides the U.S. was some third world country. He talked about all the problems the rest of the world had, and he kept on mentioning how unsafe they were. You'd think that the U.S. wouldn't be as "safe" as my dad seems to think it was, considering we're the #1 enemy of, like, every terrorist ever, but my dad kept on talking about how the rest of the world was so threatening. I told him that the rest of the world isn't as unsafe as he seems to think it is, and then he pulled rank as my dad and tells me I'm naive.
I'm not naive - I know that there's problems, wherever you go in the world, but honestly, I'm thinking of England or Canada - not Columbia or Iraq or anything. If anything, my dad strikes me as naive, thinking that the US has this magical homeland security bubble around it that would protect me from all the threats of the unwashed outside world. How anyone can still think that after 9/11 is beyond me... /tangent and i guess i've known it all along / the truth is, you have to be soft to be strong |
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Hates the Infotainment
Join Date: May 2004
Location: NSA Archives
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For my part I definitely do not mean to imply xenophobia is particular to Japan, only that there is a particularly ugly history of it in Japan, and so it's a little shocking to see what appears to be very little resistance to a new upwelling, even in this day and age.
...into the light of a dark black night. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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geez so much has been said in this topic since yesterday that i don't even know what to say now.....
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Passing by
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London, Europe
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I lived in Germany for a number of years and the country seems to have dealt very well with the problems of the post war era but hasn't really begun to confront the problems of population movement - be it the previous generation of Turkish Gastarbeiter or Poles and Estonians etc moving around in the newly enlarged European Union. It is relatively rare to see a Turkish face host a news program or other TV, or to participate meaningly in late night discussions / debate / chat shows. And there's little representation in the Bundestag and local government. Much as France struggles with its Arab minority (there isn't a single arab representative in the Assemblee Nationale except those representing the overseas territories), it seems to me Germany has a cultural leap before it. It will be interesting to see how public opinion reacts when restrictions drop away and lots of Poles (and in future Ukrainians?) come across the border to settle and work. As was ever the case, the country is a bridge between east and west (and hence faces challenges Britain has never had to deal with) - I'm just not sure I'd be as optimistic as some of the comments above that the future is a rosy one. On Moogs' original point, it's worth just saying that South Korea and China are both economic and political (and military?) competitors to Japan and it's perhaps worth just viewing comments from these countires in that context. Worth just saying too that Japan has an unusual history - for 2 centuries (mid 17th to mid 19th), the country was completely isolated - returning travellers were executed if caught. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: State of Flux
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That said, while it is certainly more complicated than the roman alphabet, it's nothing like Chinese in terms of difficulty. (But you probably already know this as your name is Number 1 Jay, Nihongo de...) |
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