[quote=World Leader Pretend;461291]
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[Dorian Gray]

Cool ride, adamb. I was up the Col du Frêne a few days ago. Not quite the Alpe d’Huez, but hard enough too!

[torifile]

Thanks for all the tips, guys! I moved my seat back, dropped my handlebars and added some bar ends. I was finally able to go for a ride yesterday (I must have missed the memo that it's monsoon season in North Carolina). Totally comfortable. Good speed and actually enjoyable.

[adamb]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray Cool ride, adamb. I was up the Col du Frêne a few days ago. Not quite the Alpe d’Huez, but hard enough too!

Nice one, and not too far from the Col de la Madeleine! It was probably my favourite, or the Col du Glandon out of La Chambre too. Absolutely stunning part of the world. A bit hilly though...

[Eugene]

Been riding maybe a hundred miles a week. I think I'm done riding for a while.

[turtle]

Wow, you look like you've been farming.

[kscherer]

I remember those.

White stripes around the eyes, white stripes around the hands, white ass, white sock stripes.

Yep. Biker's tan is the bomb! It gets all the girls.

[Eugene]

The reason for the tan. Sold the CR1, got a Ritchey Swiss Cross Disc. It's about 5 pounds heavier, but that just means I get a better workout!

[Eugene]

Let's go slide bikes!





Worse road rash pics behind the spoiler tag.

[ThunderPoit]

Ow! Spoiler tags don't work on the mobile theme!

[turtle]

That doesn't look fun at all. How did you manage to do that? How are you holding up from that? Your bike?

[Eugene]

Only a couple components on the bike are broken, and mostly superficial. The right bartape is shredded. The right pedal had a chunk of carbon ripped off. The right edge of my cycling shoe if sheared off almost all the way through.

Basically I was going down a 6-7% grade at around 20mph. It has pretty sharp turn then transitions immediately from pavement to gravel/dirt. I carried a little too much speed and drifted toward the edge of the trail and didn't want to careen over the side, so intentionally low-sided rather than tumble down a slope.

Road bike + speed + gravel/dirt = mistakes.



Carbon is no match for abrasion.

[turtle]

O am glad to hear you and your bike are overall in good shape. I think you made the right choice to lay it down rather than fly. I'm thinking it would have been way worse if you tried to spread your wings.

[Eugene]

First flat in a couple years.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...4k-popped2.png

Luckily I always have a patch kit (too big a hole,) a spare tube, CO2 inflator, and also a trusty dollar bill to use as a sleeve over the perforated sidewall.

[Eugene]

Had to attend a mini-destination wedding in Mount Shasta, brought my bike. Rode up the mountain in the morning, then came back and crammed my fatass into a suit.

[Dorian Gray]

Is Mount Shasta anywhere near the roads Jobst Brandt used to take his disciples, Tom Ritchey included, to rip off their legs? Brandt has been a huge inspiration for me over the years. His book is a remarkable thing. RIP.

I like your Ritchey frame. And the brown Brooks saddle and neon bar tape was an inspired combination. Did you come up with that idea yourself?

But I see you’ve dumped the saddle and rims and tape. I suppose you found yourself doing more road miles than ‘gravel’.

I bought a steel frame and built it up with mostly new components at the end of last year. The goals were quality, simplicity, durability, low running costs, and timeless elegance. I think the result is classically handsome while always staying out of retro-poser-idiot territory (the relatively high handlebars ruling that out anyway).



Full-size image here.

Some details, if you’re interested:

• Spa Audax frame. Several features of this frame appealed but chief among them was the relatively slack 72.5° seat-tube angle, which I need for a good fit with the Brooks Cambium C17 saddle
• SONdelux dynamo hub. For lamps in the winter. This has extremely low lights-off drag (about a watt at 30 km/h)
• Shimano FH-5700 rear hub, chosen for marginally better spoke-bracing geometry than 11-speed versions like the FH-5800. I’m running an 8-speed cassette so obviously don’t need an 11-speed hub anyway
• hand-built wheels with 32 and 36 spokes front and rear and lightweight Exal XR2 rims. As you can see, I don’t buy into the wide-rims trend (but these aren’t aero rims anyway). I came to this conclusion after reading a fascinating white paper called Mathematical Model of Yaw Angle Distributions for Bicycle Wheels. The fledgling company that put this out, Catalyst Cycling, may have gone out of business – PM me if you can’t find the PDF and want it
• Schwalbe One 25 mm clinchers with Michelin A1 latex tubes
• square-taper bottom bracket (Shimano BB-UN55). I’m not very happy with any of the alternatives, all of which have significant downsides even if they save some weight or increase stiffness. The cranks are by SunXCD and have Stronglight 34T and 46T rings
• Shimano BL-R400 brake levers, which Sheldon Brown called the best in the world! And sure enough, they are sublime in feel and operation
• Shimano SL-R400 down-tube levers (indexed at the rear)
• Ritchey Classic (silver) seatpost, stem, and narrow 40 cm handlebars.

Hey, you have the same helmet as me! (And half the planet.)

By the way, did I see you commenting on Bicycle Rolling Resistance? If not, it’s a great website worth looking up.

Speaking of tyres, that loose surface looks very difficult for your narrow tyres. What are they, 25 mm or 28 mm perhaps?

[Eugene]

I spend most of my time riding in the area where Jobst Brandt used to and Tom Ritchey still rides. Mostly the area just north of Stanford University around a town called Woodside. Mount Shasta is 300mi north, closer to Oregon than the Bay Area.

As for my old set-up, the green tape was just an extra roll I had lying around. It lasted 2 months before my slight accident chewed up the wrap on one side. I still ride gravel, but prefer to go fast up and down mountain roads now.

The Kask Protone in medium is one of the only helmets that fits my 58-59cm head without fuss. Since my head is tall and skinny, large helmets also tend to look ridiculous. Other helmets I've tried that fit well are Lazer and some Giros. I love the leatherette chin-strap on the Kask.

My wheels are hand built with 24h/24h ENVE SES 5.6 Disc rims and White Industries (locally based) hubs. Compared to Chris King, Industry Nine or Hope freehubs, they are effectively silent. I would have gone shallower, but the new 4.5s weren't available and the 3.4s aren't officially tubeless compatible. Had 24h/28h been available, I would have gone with that spoke count.

The tires are 25mm Schwalbe Pro Ones, but I measured them at 28.6-29.1mm once mounted and inflated to nominal pressure. As far as wider tires and rims are concerned, it's not so much whether they are faster for me vs. the appalling condition of road surfaces around here. It's like riding on cobbles sometimes (more Flanders than P-R.)

The drivetrain is SRAM eTap and I can now never switch back to Shimano or Campagnolo style shifting. TRP Spyre mechanical disc brakes with Shimano rotors and SwissStop e-bike pads. Again, I will probably never go back to rim brakes on account of how much fast descending I do and a desire to preserve my wheels.

[Dorian Gray]

You ride in a place with a well-developed cycling culture, albeit one quite different from the cultures I’m familiar with over here. Beautiful terrain, too.

Your bike is pretty cool, though we obviously have different tastes and expectations from our machines. And it looks like you’re a lot more tuned-in to the latest trends. For me, cycling is a refuge from fashion, electronics, and status symbols. The simplicity and purity of it makes me feel good.

Another thing that makes me feel good is riding soot bikes off my wheel. But I won’t pretend that always happens. There are a lot of strong cyclists in the Paris region, especially in the Vallée de Chevreuse or around the Longchamp hippodrome. Pros ride here when they visit Paris. You’d fit right in with those wheels.

The wheels, though, may not be as aerodynamic as you hope. The paper I mentioned above proves that average yaw angles are much lower than typically claimed by the makers of aero wheels. The authors’ conclusion is that we should be using narrower tyres and rims, in addition to less bulbous rim shapes. Obviously this flies in the face of the present marketing push.

Originally Posted by Eugene The drivetrain is SRAM eTap and I can now never switch back to Shimano or Campagnolo style shifting.

I have heard this sort of thing before, but why is it so important to change gear a particular way? This doesn’t bother me at all, as you might guess from my down-tube levers. After all, I only spend seconds per ride changing gears. The efficiency, fit, ride quality, and handling are much more important to me.

[PB PM]

Those are some epic rides, my longest tend to be in the 30-40km range, but nothing like Shasta.

Any tips on getting over bikers butt? Doesn't seem to matter how often I ride it's terrible. I'I've tried soft seats and that doesn't seem to make any difference, which seems to match what I've read.

[Dorian Gray]

Your sit-bones, or rather the flesh over them, will toughen up with time. However, this process takes an age with a soft saddle.

And soft saddles have another problem: they allow your sit-bones to sink into them until you are bearing weight on bits of your anatomy that are not designed for that. A similar problem happens if your cycling shorts have padding that is too thick or soft.

You may need a new saddle that is more suited to your bum and riding position (and simply less padded).

Thereafter, your bum will get used to the saddle in a matter of weeks if you ride as often and far as the initial discomfort allows.

A decent bike shop will have advice on these matters and will check there’s nothing wildly wrong with your riding position. For example, a saddle too high can cause saddle pain as your hips rock to prevent uncomfortable overextension of the knees.

[PB PM]

I took the soft saddle cover off the original seat after a few uses, since it only made things worse. I'm using the original hard saddle that came with my Giant ROAM 3. The bike shop I purchased it from was one of the few good ones around, but they thought the bike was set well for my size, so I'm not sure if that is the issue. I've had the bike for three years, so it's not exactly a break in period, might just have to get it checked by another shop.

[Dorian Gray]

Do you ride it enough? If I don’t ride for four weeks (e.g. this summer holiday), it already takes me a couple of rides to get comfy again.

[Eugene]

Originally Posted by Dorian Gray You ride in a place with a well-developed cycling culture, albeit one quite different from the cultures I’m familiar with over here. Beautiful terrain, too. Your bike is pretty cool, though we obviously have different tastes and expectations from our machines. And it looks like you’re a lot more tuned-in to the latest trends. For me, cycling is a refuge from fashion, electronics, and status symbols. The simplicity and purity of it makes me feel good. Another thing that makes me feel good is riding soot bikes off my wheel. But I won’t pretend that always happens. There are a lot of strong cyclists in the Paris region, especially in the Vallée de Chevreuse or around the Longchamp hippodrome. Pros ride here when they visit Paris. You’d fit right in with those wheels. The wheels, though, may not be as aerodynamic as you hope. The paper I mentioned above proves that average yaw angles are much lower than typically claimed by the makers of aero wheels. The authors’ conclusion is that we should be using narrower tyres and rims, in addition to less bulbous rim shapes. Obviously this flies in the face of the present marketing push. I have heard this sort of thing before, but why is it so important to change gear a particular way? This doesn’t bother me at all, as you might guess from my down-tube levers. After all, I only spend seconds per ride changing gears. The efficiency, fit, ride quality, and handling are much more important to me.

I approach the spec of my bike in a way that suits my needs. I have to keep up other riders with similar fitness goals.

Your bike looks very fashionable to me. I'm sure you put just as much effort or more into choosing very specific components. Even your bottle cage was chosen based on looks. Our bikes look different, but they didn't turn out that way by accident.

Again, I did not buy these wheels only for aerodynamic properties. My previous front wheel experienced a catastrophic structural failure and I needed a replacement ASAP. I wanted the 5-year warranty that only ENVE provides. The shallower 3.4s weren't made for tubeless tires. The 4.5s weren't available yet. The wheels turn 25mm clincher tires into 29mm tires. They turn 28s into 32s. I run my tires at 70/75 psi and the ride is very comfortable. What's more the comfort comes at little expense in aerodynamics. At 29mm, my tires sidewalls transition smoothly onto the 29mm wide rims. What does the paper you mention say about running 29mm tires on 21-23mm wide rims? What does it say about comfort? My wheel/tire combo splits the difference between comfort and aero. Also yes I understand that even at 5 watts/kg the difference in speed between random box rims and those wheels is probably less than 1kph.

For the record I think my wheels look stupid on a steel frame. My bike doesn't have the B17, WTB CX rims or 36/44 chainrings anymore. My riding style has changed, and so has the build.

As for the mechanics of shifting, I have done 50 mile rides where I have shifted my rear derailleur several hundred clicks and the front derailleur dozens of times. I have done much longer rides with proportionally more shifts. With Shimano's STI system, my left hand would often fatigue, making shifting into the big ring more difficult. Electronic groupsets mean that doesn't happen. SRAM eTap does a few things that I like. It only uses two shift paddles. It simplifies the logic. Tap the left paddle and the rear derailleur moves left. Electronic groupsets automatically trim. They don't need to be reindexed when a cable stretches. They make dumping through the full range of a cassette incredibly easy. Installing, cleaning, servicing a drivetrain without shifter cables is also very convenient.

As for Campagnolo, the thumb lever never felt right for me, especially in the drops.

[Eugene]

PB PM, can you describe exactly where the soreness is on your underside? Is it actually your sitbones, or is it more forward like your perineum. Does your *ahem* go numb?

[PB PM]

DG, time between rides could be part of the issue, I don't get out every week. I tend to get sore half way through the ride, which makes the return 15-20km less than enjoyable.

Eugene, it's all in the sit bones, no numbness.

[Dorian Gray]

Are you done making practically invisible edits? I’m trying to quote you here.

Originally Posted by Eugene I approach the spec of my bike in a way that suits my needs. I have to keep up other riders with similar fitness goals.

You calling my bike slow?

I let a guy with a €3k Lapierre take a spin on mine a couple of months ago. He was amazed at how smooth and fast-rolling it was. Fast tyres, latex tubes, big old cup-and-cone bearings in the rear hub, Squirt chain lube, ball-bearing pulleys in the rear derailleur, old pedals with big (i.e. unfashionably heavy) bearings… these things add up. Especially since I keep it all meticulously maintained, unlike most of the expensive bikes I see on the road.

Originally Posted by Eugene Even your bottle cage was chosen based on looks.

Function, then looks. As with all the other components. It’s true I’ve carefully selected them.

Originally Posted by Eugene Our bikes look different, but they didn't turn out that way by accident.

And I respect that. Your (slightly unusual) combination of components shows evidence of deliberate thought.

Originally Posted by Eugene What does the paper you mention say about running 29mm tires on 21-23mm wide rims? What does it say about comfort?

Not much.

Are you really sustaining 5 W/kg for any length of time? If so, a 1 km/h gain for aero rims is just about plausible, assuming the tyre width stays the same. I am not as strong as that and would not experience that kind of speed difference.

But my point, I suppose, is this: we have been led to believe that wider rims and wider tyres are more aerodynamic. They are not. Narrow is aero, same as it always was. Aerodynamic profiles and tyre-rim matching only mitigate the damage caused by wider tyres in the first place. The exception is when you have a big crosswind component, but as I said, this is rarer than we think.

Of course wider tyres have other benefits.

My own approach is to use narrow box-section rims (that are just £18 each from my UK supplier) and run narrower tyres, but run them at lower pressures (greater drop) than other people normally would. I am light (~65 kg) and light-riding, so I can get away with this without pinch flats. If the narrow tyres are supple enough, you can run them at low pressures without a great rolling-resistance penalty. Especially on real-world surfaces (per Jan Heine, Joshua Poertner, et al.).

This gives me the aero benefits of narrow, with the low cost of box-section alloy rims, plus the comfort of low pressures – at the cost of having to be careful about bombing though potholes. It works for me.

Originally Posted by Eugene With Shimano's STI system, my left hand would often fatigue

Sounds like you need down-tube shifters!

Originally Posted by Eugene Installing, cleaning, servicing a drivetrain without shifter cables is also very convenient.

What about babysitting four batteries and watching SRAM make your investment obsolete in a couple of years?

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by PB PM DG, time between rides could be part of the issue, I don't get out every week.

It’s probably just that then. A 40 km ride is long enough that you need to be accustomed to the saddle to do it in complete comfort (though not so long that you can’t get through it anyway).

Once you get into the world of long-distance cycling, audax, etc., leather saddles become very common. Sitting on a bike for 400 km (or even 1200 km!) requires high comfort or the pain stops you completing the ride.

Ride more!

[Dorian Gray]

Another thought about front shifting (even though that’s the first time I’ve heard of hand fatigue as justification for a €2k groupset!): people do this too much because bicycles usually come with inappropriate gears.

Jan Heine offers a good logic for choosing your chainrings here and here.

My own 46T large chainring was chosen to minimise front shifting. In combination with the Spa Audax’s longish chainstays (425 mm) and the ability to fine-tune the chainline with a square-taper bottom bracket, plus the slightly narrower 8-speed cassette (especially versus 11-speed), I’m able to access the whole cassette from the 46T ring with good silence and smoothness. When cruising along, I’m near the middle of the cassette. So when I hit an incline, headwind, or combination of both, nine times out of ten I have no need to drop to the inner chainring.

In effect, I am able to have all the benefits of an 8-speed setup while enjoying close ratios, at the expense of not having huge top gears that I would rarely use.

Because not having a ratio over 100 gear inches is not a problem for me. By the time the cadence gets too high in my top gear, I’m better off not pedalling and tucking properly anyway. No-one has ever got away from me because I didn’t have a tall enough gear.

I think 50T chainrings are too large for the average roadie, leading to frequent cross-chaining (with a sub-optimum chainline to begin with) and frequent front shifts. That’s only 3T off the size used by professionals with double the FTP and a peloton to draft.

Not saying this applies to you, Eugene.

[Eugene]

I can do 5 w/kg for 2min. Over an hour around 3.7 w/kg...it depends because even just a week off the bike can take a toll. I was just illustrating how inefficient it is to chase aero gains purely with wheels. Even a slightly loose jersey would wioe that's out.

As for obsolescence. Why would my drivetrain become obsolete in a few years? As long as I replace old batteries, I plan on using the crankarms, shifters and derailleurs until they cannot be repaired. I only have to charge my batteries once every 3-4 weeks and I keep two spares in my saddle pack. The CR2032s I expect to last another full year. In 3-4 weeks I will have wiped down and lubed my chainset 2-3 times, fully washed my bike at least once, topped off my tires at least a dozen times, etc. Looking for a red flashing light doesn't seem like all that much extra work to me. My friend is still riding 10spd Di2 after 5 years and 35,000mi. I will have changed my chain a several times, my cassette a few times, chainrings, jockey wheels, maybe a bottom bracket by then.

As for turning 50x11, I was spinning 140rpm in that gear ratio going down 6-7% on Saturday at a few points. Could have done more but the descent was mostly into a headwind at the top and keeping me at or below 40mph if I coasted in an aero tuck.

There's also points on flats where I just want to go into a bigger gear and do low cadence skeletal muscle drills.

[Eugene]

But my point, I suppose, is this: we have been led to believe that wider rims and wider tyres are more aerodynamic. They are not. Narrow is aero, same as it always was. Aerodynamic profiles and tyre-rim matching only mitigate the damage caused by wider tyres in the first place. The exception is when you have a big crosswind component, but as I said, this is rarer than we think.

I have never heard this claimed before. We have been told by Heine, Zinn, etc. that wider tires at similar inflation pressures have squarer contact patches and less rolling resistance. We have been told that suppler casings make for faster rolling tires. AFAIK we have never been told that wider tires are more aero...

Whereas rolling resistance increases somewhat linearly based on speed, air resistance increases exponentially. Because of that I don't think we'll see 35mm rims from the wide-aero rim trend. For one that starts forcing framebuilders to implement design elements like dropped chainstays or wider BB/hub spacing in general, and I don't think most riders will need larger than 32mm semi-slick tires for anything less than rolling onto surfaces like the stuff at the top of Shasta.