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The Saga Ends
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-25, 14:43

As you said, selling toys has always been a big part of Star Wars. Here's a tidbit to consider: Is it possible that the toy companies themselves get to sit in on those story meetings and help dream up vehicle ideas that are relatively easy to make and/or play with? I mean, those tracked bikes* would be very easy to reproduce for a company like LEGO who already have all the necessary parts in all the necessary colors, so BAM!

And who doesn't want flying storm troopers*. I mean, when a stormtrooper is part of the game-play and you want to destroy him, you would usually just push him off the edge of a coffee table or dresser or something. Now, you can fling the little bastard across the room into the wall and it's all very "lifelike"!

You have to think of these things from the perspective of marketeers who sell toys, and children who play with them. Then you have a committee meeting and everyone gets together and says, "no, that won't sell," or "no, that will be too hard for us to make," or "no, that looks too much like last years thing and the kids won't scream for a new one," or "destructive little Johnny was a good boy, yes he was, and does he want a flying stome twooper to destroy? Does he?"



As far as the earlier question about "baby Yoda", it's a good thought. It would be interesting if The Mandalorian dude did turn out to have some major impact on Episode IX, although I doubt it. Seriously, since Episode I, I don't think anyone (Lucas or Disney) has actually had a vision of the future and how everything would tie together. The best they seem to be able to do is hook up with the past. Hooking up with the future requires way too much time and forethought for the Kathleen Kennedy era of Star Wars. It's all just a bunch of random shows (Rogue One excepted) that seem to have no purpose other than to sneak another $12 from our pockets. I mean, since Episode 6, there have been 3 whiner-baby movies that failed to sell Vader as evil, 1 remake of Episode 4, 1 very good but plugged into the past rebel adventure, 1 total butchering of the Kessel Run, 1 thing that had Star Wars in the title but was otherwise just a poorly conceived Sci-Fi movie, and a whole bunch of cartoons that are sometimes fun and sometimes weird and don't ever seem to care a lick about cannon. Basically, other than Rogue One there has been nothing written or filmed that really sells the idea of Star Wars as a continuing saga. I mean, I loved Episode 7, but it didn't continue the franchise in any meaningful way, nor did any of its allusions toward future stuff pan out in Episode 8. Seriously, these people cannot see into their own future any further than the opening crawl.

So, yeah, while I can envision a story where the Mandalorian saves the baby Yoda who then teaches Rey how to slap Luke across his baby-killer face, I just don't feel like there is anything in this movie that might lead me to believe that the Mandalorian team and the Episode 9 team have ever even met each other, let alone collaborated on a project. That would indicate that Kathleen Kennedy sees a big picture, and I just don't think she does.

* belated spoiler alert

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-25, 15:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
As you said, selling toys has always been a big part of Star Wars. Here's a tidbit to consider: Is it possible that the toy companies themselves get to sit in on those story meetings and help dream up vehicle ideas that are relatively easy to make and/or play with?
Well that's a stupid way to make movies. I know I'm old-fashioned, but it seems like the movie/story should come first, and then everything spring from that.

Yeah, yeah...how quaint and naive, Paul.



To be clear, I have no problem with flying Stormtroopers. Just figured they would've existed way before now. What took so long?!

Why nobody - both real-life filmmakers/toy execs, OR in-story Empire/First Order military leadership - thought of it until Episode IX is a surprise. By 1983, with the release of ROTJ, it was established that a) jetpacks exist/work in that world, and b) that there were specialized Stormtrooper variants (Snowtroopers, biker scouts and I'm sure others). Seems like a flying squadron of them would've been thought of. Might have been, for all I know, and just got vetoed for story/budget reasons...only to be resurrected 36 years later as part of the AKHMI (Abrams/Kennedy Hail Mary Initiative™).

I still think the wheeled vehicle is goofy and a bit pointless.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-11-25 at 17:38.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-25, 16:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I still think the wheeled vehicle is goofy and a bit pointless.
Yep. But it looks cool, and that sells toys!

And don't forget that there were flying R2-D2's long before these flying storm troopers.

I mean seriously, R2 was flying all the way back there in Episode 2! Clearly his little rocket feets could be retrofitted to storm trooper armor? But let's not talk about it too much, or the next CGI rebuild of Episode 4 will most definitely find a way to squeeze them in.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-26, 10:26

Thinking back to that 30-second clip I posted/discussed yesterday...




Spoiler (click to toggle):
Why is Rey Almighty, The Most Powerful Untrained Force User The Galaxy Has Ever Known™, even wasting her time vainly firing a blaster in that scenario? Didn't the previous movie clearly establish her ability to manipulate multiple heavy objects - dozens and dozens of rocks/boulders - (as well as alarm/frighten Luke himself with her raw, untapped potential for power)? If she could levitate numerous heavy rocks to free her friends from the old Rebel base on Crait, could she not use that same sort of power on the pursuing troopers (once again saving her friends when they need it most)? Maybe stopping/levitating the troopers in their tracks?

Or, if she really wanted to strut her stuff, toss them (and their vehicles) around like rag dolls? Anakin, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon did that quite a bit in the prequels, with those goofy battle droids. So, again, that's established, canonical stuff that just gets downplayed/ignored when it's convenient to the plot ("convenient to the plot" being the potential to sell a few thousand First Order SandMobiles with Mega-Treadz and X-treme Catapult Action!!!).

At the very least, maybe she could rip the (ill-advised) treads/wheels from those sandmobiles, rendering them useless and unable to continue the pursuit (punishment for the First Order for putting treads/wheels on their military hardware in a world where eight movies have shown us that most vehicles float/ride on air).
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-26, 12:21

You should know by now that the last five Star Wars movies don't give a rip about canon.

At some point in the "past" the Jedi were these great "warriors" who kept order in the galaxy. I have no idea how or why it happened, but that ended somewhere around Episode 1 very near the beginning of the story. The Jedi were suddenly these sort of bumbling idiots that never seemed to win any more battles other than through sheer luck (and it usually took at least two of them). Since that point (and through all of the officially sanctioned stuff—The Clone Wars, Rebels, and such) the Jedi spend more time getting encircled, outflanked, and generally running away from things. That any "good" force sensitive types spend their time running from the evil bad guys is no longer a surprise, and hasn't been since Obi Wan and Qui Gon force-whistel-walked down the hall away from the droidikas. From that point on, it's all about "run Forrest, run!"

That Rey is running and seems to forget about her force-rock-throw power is just more of the same. The Jedi and their kind are mostly just strategically inept cowards. I mean, three of the best light saber dudes in the order (Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin) were wiped clean by effectively one dude (Palpatine, and with little effort on his part), before Mace Windu seemed to get the upper hand, but only as a pawn who was used to get to Anakin.

The drama is all manufactured, and the good guys are spending ever increasing amounts of time getting their asses kicked through a never ending parade of bad decision making and overrated power. The bad guys always get the jump on them, they always have the upper hand, and they are always better in a fight, until the final fight in which the good guys always suddenly find their mojo. In the first three movies, the good guys were always ready to fight, always blasting into and out of trouble, always taking the enemy by the horns. It's just a general, paradigm shift from Lucas' early vision of good guys being very clever, brave, and Leaderly™ (I just made that word up ) to the new Kennedy-led vision of the good guys running from their own shadow and getting their collectively asses kicked at every turn.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2019-11-26 at 12:58.
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-26, 13:48

I'm the farthest thing from a "film snob" you'll ever see, but little things like that just annoy me...when movies ignore/downplay things they themselves set up in previous installments (or even earlier scenes in the same movie). When I see things like that, I really find myself asking "who's writing this?! Nobody's paying attention...they're blowing a neat opportunity here to do something that they hinted at or demonstrated earlier!" It would've been cool to see the camera kinda close in on Rey as she closes her eyes and raises her hand and then we see those Skytrooper (and their vehicles) rising into the air, then thrown around and crashing back down, and all her friends looking at her with awe and gratitude. It could be played for both humor but also "okay, she's really coming into this Force stuff...she's learning/growing". You swell that Williams music just right as you show Finn and Poe staring and not sure what to say, and you have a nice moment that serves 3-4 purposes. Show, don't tell...she loves/cares for her friends and will protect them, she isn't someone to be messed with, she deliberately chose to tap into this power when it mattered most vs. relying on a "clumsy, random" blaster, etc.

I'm going to laugh my head off if this is what actually comes to be in the movie. Maybe that's what the scene is building to? The entire sequence wasn't shown, after all. That would pretty much be the first thing I predicted, and got right, in any of these movies.

It's getting to where I just can't watch these big-budget genre type movies anymore because they all seem to be written for reasons other than making sense or serving the story. Whether its toy sales, eliciting neckbeard jizz/seal-clapping, showing off what their computers can do, etc., I just find myself unable to hang with badly-written, lazy stuff the older I get.

And I discount all those who use the "but these movies are for kids, Paul...you're not the market anymore" excuse/explanation. Nonsense and bullcrap. Adults in the theater in 1977-1983 clapped, laughed and enjoyed them just as much as I did. I was there, and heard/saw all of it. And today, at 50, I still love/watch the original trilogy and get all the same jolts and enjoyment I always have (I discussed that upthread, I think). For that theory to work, then I should also dislike, and no longer watch, any of the original trilogy. But that's not the case. 1-2 times a year, I'll sit and watch Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi and I'm glued to the screen. So, no...I haven't changed on that front.

But moviemaking, writing, casting, marketing, pacing, etc. definitely has. Things are shorthanded or dumbed-down more than in the past. You can't have thoughtful three-hour movies in wide release because it cuts into "butts in the seat" thinking and the number of showings each room can have in a day, so everything has to get whittled down to fit desired, optimal timeframes. There are exceptions of course, but they're just that...exceptions. And even long genre stuff, you're seeing the most edited-it-can-be-and-still-make-sense version. But back to Star Wars...go find some aliens or even some isolated tribe of islanders somewhere...show them all eight movies in no particular order, with whatever subtitles or overdubbing is required to allow them to fully understand what's taking place. The original trilogy releases would surely come out on top with the prequel and sequel installments all duking it out for 4th to 8th place (with Rian's little student film a lock for 8th).

All this just makes me eager for The Irishman. I'm pretty sure De Niro isn't going to be doing any three-point landings.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-11-26 at 14:19.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2019-11-26, 14:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
You should know by now that the last five Star Wars movies don't give a rip about canon.

At some point in the "past" the Jedi were these great "warriors" who kept order in the galaxy. I have no idea how or why it happened, but that ended somewhere around Episode 1 very near the beginning of the story. The Jedi were suddenly these sort of bumbling idiots that never seemed to win any more battles other than through sheer luck (and it usually took at least two of them). Since that point (and through all of the officially sanctioned stuff—The Clone Wars, Rebels, and such) the Jedi spend more time getting encircled, outflanked, and generally running away from things. That any "good" force sensitive types spend their time running from the evil bad guys is no longer a surprise, and hasn't been since Obi Wan and Qui Gon force-whistel-walked down the hall away from the droidikas. From that point on, it's all about "run Forrest, run!"
I always wonder what fans think the real explanation of the rise of Palpatine/Vader would be. If the Jedi were supposed to keep order in the galaxy, then clearly they screwed up somewhere between the birth of Anakin and A New Hope.

The concrete depiction in the prequels wasn't great (for all kinds of reasons, like being unable to really empathize with any character), as has been litigated to death, but the basic plot outline isn't in question, is it?
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-26, 14:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
I probably just need to adjust/tweak the stuff I watch.
This!

We have reached a point where poorly conceived, CGI story-telling and "comedy" is just plain nonsense. From the sensory overload of 3-hour Transformers movies to the stupid, manufactured drama of The Walking Dead, story-telling is just … bad. I mean, you spend your day running, and every time you look around the walking people are within yards, right on your heals! Run as fast as you can, but never get ahead. Nightmare scenario, and I suppose that is what draws people. "Hey, it's just like in my nightmares where I'm running but can never escape!"

Bull!

Back in the '70's and '80's George Lucas had no CGI and only minimal models and stop-motion. He had to think outside the box, and the story had to carry the weight of the film. The music had to back up the story, and the effects only had to provide a reasonable canvas for the action to happen on. Thus, Star Wars was a smash hit because the story carried itself. Everything else was there to support the story, to give it life and emotion. Now the story no longer has to carry itself because CGI can fill our eyeballs with so much sensory BS that our brains don't have time to make sense out of anything else. This is why Episodes 1-3 flopped in the minds of the public. Once we got out of the theater and had time to actually think about what we had just seen, it became clear that is the only thing that happened. We "saw" something, but there was no story behind the scenery. It was just a dense puddle of bad dialogue and CGI. The story had nothing to stand on.

All three of the prequel movies leaned heavily on the method of "CGI carries the story" rather than "Story carries the CGI". This made for some very bad and poorly conceived narratives. Episode 7 was the first movie to march ahead without George Lucas, and even though he fell on his face with 1-3 the "story" was still there inside his head. Kathleen Kennedy should have known this, but I am guessing that she spent so much time just saying, "Yes, George, that sounds great" that she doesn't really have any sense of the "story". Abrams also had no sense of the story, but it is clear that he loved Episode 4. Thus, Episode 7 was just him retelling a story that he loved while using a mixed crew of old and new characters to rehash something successful. Rian Johnson had neither a sense of the story nor the old things to stand on, so he just threw both away and scribbled some crap on a chalk board. Kathleen Kennedy, whose imagination is limited to "Yes, George, that sounds great" simply looked across the conference table and said, "Yes, Rian, that sounds great!"

Now, with Episode 9, Abrams is back with a love for Star Wars, a severely damaged position, and no story to stand on. My guess? He looked in the mirror and said, "JJ, Episode 4 was awesome, and the people mostly loved the way you retold it. So, Episode 6 was great, too. Yeah, just retell Episode 6!" So, that's my prediction for The Rise of Skywalker. Episode 6 retold with new characters and new worlds, but basically the same thing. The rebellion is up against a wall, they've just been put in the "worst position they've ever been in", and oh, look, the Death Star (again) and Palpatine (again) and speeder bike things (again) and …

Yep, that's where I'm going with this.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-26, 14:37

I know the sequels make the prequels look better to some, but I sometimes still find myself thinking "what if 1977-1983 was all there was?"

We'll never be able to know, but I've always wished there was some sort of parallel universe I could pop into just to see if Star Wars, three movies total, would be either forgotten OR viewed as a still-watchable-by-everyone enduring classic?

My gut says the latter, and that everything coming after 1983 has really done nothing other than ding/damage the property. The prequels over-explained to an excessive, charm-zapping degree, and the sequels seem hell-bent on undoing all that we know and love from the original trilogy. So, between those five (soon to be six) movies, I can honestly say "sometimes it's sure nice to just leave the good stuff alone". If you're truly not going to help it, then why bother? Granted, Lucas in the prequels and Abrams in the sequels don't see themselves as "doing damage", but they did/are. That's also what's it's easy to love the original trilogy more and more as time goes on...they truly hold up and, compared to these other 5-6 outings, they look like masterpieces of storytelling and moviemaking.

But that's leaving gazillions on the table, and no self-respecting studio is going to do that!

Still, it's nice to think about.

We have a close example in the Indiana Jones thing...I think the release of that Crystal Skulls movie in 2008 didn't help one bit, and, prior to that, many people - myself included - saw the original three Indy movies as a near-perfect little saga that we can watch/enjoy the rest of our lives without having to "expand" on it (although I know there was a young Indy TV show for a bit, but I don't think it was a multi-year smash hit either). So if Star Wars had that sort of thing...of a specific span of time, about six years total, 35-40 years ago, just how they'd be seen by the world today?

Us old-timers would still love them, but I wonder how kids, teens and millennials would view them? How do they view the Indy movies? Are they even aware? I'm not sure my niece and nephew (16 and 14) even know who Indiana Jones is...I need to ask my sister Thursday.

Honestly, I could've gone my entire life without Padme, Nute Gunray, Jar Jar, Qui-Gon, Maul, Dooku, Anakin (especially that little one), General Grievous, etc. Of that I have no doubt. And I sure as hell could've gone my entire life without Finn, Rey, Poe, Kylo, Rose, BB-8, Holdo, Maz, Phasma, Hux, Snoke, etc. But now that they all exist and I know about them, I have to navigate those waters of suckage, and qualify/explain myself more than I'd have to had Star Wars not just stayed as three movies, from 1977-1983.

Basically in 2019 if you say you're a Star Wars fan, then you're looking at an automatic 20-30 minute discussion/explanation/clarification session, with visual aids, a spreadsheet, oath-taking, depositions and affidavits, a notary public, etc.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-26, 14:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
The concrete depiction in the prequels wasn't great (for all kinds of reasons, like being unable to really empathize with any character), as has been litigated to death, but the basic plot outline isn't in question, is it?
I don't think so. I really think the premise was acceptable, but I believe that George was so hung up on the relationship between Anakin and Padme, and so adorably hopeless with the language of love, that he couldn't quite get it in order. Being surrounded by too many yes-men didn't help, since no one took a stand to challenge the hopelessly unbelievable premise that Anakin would slaughter hundreds or maybe thousands of children to "save Padme". No other explanation for the extermination of the Jedi was given, and Anakin's anguish throughout the movies was never believable enough to make me feel any sense of genuine discontent to the point of psychopathy. He was painted as an arrogant, hormonal, bumbling idiot surrounded by a sea of bumbling idiots. All the chatter of the greatness of the Jedi was painted over by bad CGI and poor dialogue surrounded by a story that wasn't "real" in any sense of the imagination.

Lucas wasn't wrong to show the weakenss of the Jedi (and perhaps arrogance), he was just wrong in his approach.

On that, I am going to repost a long thought I had back in 2014 that contains a brief script outline that I wrote in the lead-up to Episode 7. Lucas used the premise that "save Padme" was the reason for Anakin's turn to the dark side and his relentless hatred of the Jedi. It was never realistic, and I believed (and still do) that Anakin needed a better reason for his brutality and the conversion to Darth Vader. Here it is:



Before reading this very short script, please understand why I believe Episodes 1-3 are so completely and utterly unbelievable:

1) Anakin is considered "too old" to begin the training but begins the training anyway (Luke, almost twice as old, is also considered "too old" and also begins the training anyway). So, the Jedi don't bother following their own rules, like, EVER?

2) Anakin is "conceived by the midichlorians", something that then requires much explanation for the sake of what?

3) 10-year-old Anakin is infatuated with a young adult woman

4) A young adult woman is infatuated with 10-year-old Anakin



5) Anakin's mother is kidnapped and tortured by a horde of animal-people who are known for their brutish treatment of humans. Anakin is then demonized (not by the Jedi, but by the author) for punishing said horde, as "revenge goes against the Jedi code". Apparently, keeping order and peace in the galaxy is done by sheer wishful thinking.

6) Padmé's use of "I truly, deeply love you" is George Lucas' desperate fantasy coming forward as opposed to genuine dialogue between two people in love.

7) Padmé's pregnancy moves waaaaaay too fast

8) "I love you" then "no, I love you" is just stupid, childish dialogue, again pointing to the author's fantasies rather than good taste.

9) The best George could do to drive Anakin to the dark side is use Palpatine's past experience with hopefully, maybe, possibly using the force to save those we love from dying.

10) Flip the switch, kill the padawans and wipe out the Jedi because "save Padmé" is the lamest excuse for the transition from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader that Lucas could have possibly come up with. Only worse option would be "just because".



That said, Here is my idea of the 1-3 plot. No dialogue. I'm not going to rewrite the movies, just a glimpse into my head and how the story should have gone—from my perspective.

Episodes 1-3 gave us absolutely no reason to believe the sweet Anakin to evil Darth Vader transition. Instead, we were given some special effects, lovey-dovey, and corny humor on the way to a split second decision in which Anakin immediately became evil for save Padmé.

Just. Doesn't. Work.

Instead, we need events to take place that give Anakin a slow and progressively sinister hatred of the Jedi and their old, traditional ways. It cannot be a "snap" like Order 66 was for the clones. That is at least believable considering the Clones were manufactured. Anakin is a well-trained, highly talented Jedi and he wouldn't fail in a snap. He needs a good solid reason, or, as I outline, two of them.

Condensed Episode 1-3 plot for the sake of [at least some] believability:

Quote:
Episode 1

1) Opens with Trade Federation BS, only trade guys have CGI lips so they don't look like talking socks.

2) Jedi dialogue is less stupid

3) fight aboard trade fed ship. Jedi wind up on surface, where they encounter Jar Jar, who speaks to them in non-Jamaican english, and who is very intelligent and passive.

4) Jar Jar takes the Jedi to his council, where he is praised as an admirable, but solitary, Dungan. Jar Jar arranges for transportation to take the Jedi to the capitol city. In the capitol, the Jedi free the queen and take her and her personal staff to Coruscant, but get sidetracked along the way. Jar Jar is NOT along for the ride.

5) Some stuff about hyper drive failures and such leads them to Tatooine, where the queen's young Handmaiden, Padmé Amidala, is rescued from drunken sailors by the also young Anakin Skywalker. Anakin is a teenager of 18. Padmé is 17.

6) Anakin had a real dad who was killed by the Huts for cheating and refusing to pay a gambling debt. Thus, Anakin and his mother were taken into slavery to pay the debt, then sold to that flying insect dude.

7) Anakin can save the day and Pod Races and such (the original bit works, so mostly leave it alone).

8) Qui Gon Jin recognizes the Force in Anakin through his skillful pod racing. Offers him option to train as Jedi, must leave mommy (taking small children from their mommy for save-the-galaxy-training is lame). Qui Gon is able to free both him AND his mother, but only Anakin can go along for the ride.

9) Some special effects and blowing stuff up. Jedi return to Naboo for some fighting and stuff. Qui Gon dies. Obi Wan goes all ballistic and genuinely kicks Darth Maul's ass! There is no "hanging from the high place and then jumping in the air, grabbing a light saber and cutting dude in half. No F'in way. Obi Wan straight up kicks Maul's ass and dices him in pieces!

10) The Jedi Council sees a dark future for Anakin and requests he not be trained. In arrogance, Obi Wan Kenobi defies the council and takes Anakin for his padawan.

Episode 2

1) The Jedi are confronted with a new evil. A group of star systems have announced their secession from the Republic and chaos is coming.

2) Amidst the chaos it is learned that Anakin's mother has been taken hostage (or other such thing) in Palpatine's secret effort to destabilize the Hutt's stranglehold on gambling. Battle Droids have taken the planet and control Mos Eisley.

3) The Jedi Council issues Jedi Knight Obi Wan Kenobi and his padawan Anakin Skywalker (Skywalker for his familiarity with the planet) to seek a diplomatic release of hostages. The separatists refuse, and a battle erupts.

3) Needing reinforcements, the outnumbered Jedi call for assistance, which padawan Skywalker sees as a weakness.

4) The separatist invaders decry Jedi involvement as an affront to their sovereign rights and declare war on the Republic. This declaration is lead by Geonosis (the droid foundry world) and some other planets with neat creatures and stuff.

5) The Jedi make bad tactical decisions which lead to the deaths of ALL the hostages, including Anakin's mother.

6) Upon return to Coruscant, Anakin is reunited with Padmé and confides in her his deep sorrow over his mother, emotions he is not permitted to share with his Jedi brethren. Anakin realizes the Jedi's mistakes lead to his mother's death.

7) More confrontation, this time on Geonosis. Anakin must leave immediately. Padmé stows away in the ship. Obi Wan and Anakin are dispatched to look into allegations that Geonosis is behind the droid armies. They are all captured. R2-D2 learns he does NOT have jet-feet, and C-3P0 isn't terribly funny.

8) There is some pomp and theater and some shooting and light sabers and such before Yoda saves the day with his fleet of clones and such.

9) Episode 2 closes with Anakin and Padmé in mourning, and also learning of her pregnancy. Padmé is not sweet and innocent. She convinces Anakin the Jedi are entirely at fault for his mother's death.

10) Final scene has Palpatine and folks watching the Star Destroyer fleet leave the planet.

Episode 3

1) Padmé Amidala has become a powerful leader in the Republic

2) Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker leads various missions against the growing separatists, who are fighting against the oppression caused by Palpatine's governance

3) Chancellor Palpatine shows Anakin the "evil" ways of the Jedi and their past failings, including a "secret memo" instructing Obi Wan Kenobi to destroy the hostages since this would give power to the separatists. Palpatine convinces Anakin the Jedi are stirring up the war to overthrow the Senate. Anakin confronts Obi Wan over these allegations, leading to a minor scuffle. Obi Wan realizes something is very wrong.

4) The separatists kidnap a very pregnant Padmé and carry her to Mustafar

5) Chancellor Palpatine sends a giant fleet of Star Destroyers and clones to Mustafar to challenge the separatist fleet hiding there

6) General Obi Wan Kenobi leads a small army of Jedi while behind the scenes, Palpatine orchestrates tactics that ensure defeat for the Jedi, whose decisions lead to severe injury for Padmé.

7) Once again, Obi Wan Kenobi is leading the fight when the disaster happens. However, he realizes that some other power is at play and tries to save Padmé. She enters premature delivery and the twins, Luke and Leia, are born. Soon after, she dies of her injuries.

8) Before Anakin sees his children (Obi Wan is now aware he is the father) Obi wan approaches him to inform him of her death and the presence of dark forces. Anakin is already convinced the Jedi are behind her death and lashes out in a rage.

9) Fight stuff on Mustafar. Anakin's powerful, dark side comes raging forward and he is clearly beating his master until Obi Wan gains the upper hand (high ground). Obi Wan slices and dices Anakin and leaves him for dead.

10) Palpatine shows up on Mustafar to collect Anakin and rebuilds the 6-million dollar man. Anakin does not go all Frankenstein on us, but immediately recognizes the superior nature of his mechanical limbs and demands revenge on the Jedi. Palpatine demands his allegiance as a Syth apprentice and knights him Darth Vader

11) Palpatine draws on his secretly planned order 66, which places the Clones' inhuman loyalty under the direct authority of their new general, Darth Vader. Darth Vader makes his move on the Jedi Temple as the Jedi are scattered and overcome by the growing war. He orders the clones to kill all in the temple—man, woman, and child.

12) Darth Vader's anger leads him to slaughter one Jedi after another before ordering the temple burnt to the ground.

13) Darth Vader meets Master's Kit Fisto and Mace Windu coming to save the temple. He proclaims them a disease that must be eradicated. The greatest light saber battle in history erupts. Darth Vader overcomes the Jedi with superior use of the force in every way. As Windu lays dying, he "informs" Vader that the Jedi will not allow this tragedy to stand. "The Jedi are spineless murderers," Vader says in his deep, James Earl Jones. "They murdered my mother and they murdered my wife. I will hunt every last Jedi until they are extinct!" Then he dices Windu's head.

14) Meanwhile, Yoda encounters Palpatine

15) Palpatine reveals the Dark Jedi, a group of "reformed" Jedi who he sends out to destroy the Jedi stationed in the far reaches of the galaxy (prelude to episodes 7-9)

16) Obi Wan takes the twins and off we go to Episode 4


If something like this were the backstory, and someone who loved Star wars—and understood the story—were writing the final 3 chapters (Episodes 7-9) things would look very different for all of us.

And Episodes 7-9 would be all about the Jedi Master Luke Skywalker and his training of new Jedi to counter the growing threat from the Dark Jedi.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2019-11-26 at 15:32.
  quote
chucker
 
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2019-11-26, 15:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
5) Anakin's mother is kidnapped and tortured by a horde of animal-people who are known for their brutish treatment of humans. Anakin is then demonized (not by the Jedi, but by the author) for punishing said horde, as "revenge goes against the Jedi code". Apparently, keeping order and peace in the galaxy is done by sheer wishful thinking.
To be fair, "punishing said horde" is a bit euphemistic. He murders them all. I can kind of see why that doesn't go over well at the Jedi council.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-26, 15:34

And perhaps that is a bit of the reason why he sees it is as no big deal? He was "punishing" them, while they see it as murder. In Anakin's eyes, this would be seen as a weakness amongst the Jedi.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2019-11-26, 15:48

Quote:
Jar Jar is NOT along for the ride.
Big mood, as Zoomers would say.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 10:45

Those 15-second(?) quick-cut TV spots are starting to show up, I’m noticing. Can’t really tell much from them, just (mostly) dialogue-free montage of 1-2 second action clips pieced together (blaster fire, saber swinging, ship flybys, explosions, etc.).

They certainly have an “everything, including the kitchen sink!” vibe to them. I go back to my earlier post above...this movie has 2-3 big things to accomplish...it’s hard to imagine how they’ll go about it, just from a running time/coherent story/focused plot standpoint. It’ll have to hit the ground running...probably not much time for subtlety, quiet reflection, slow-burn tension, casual conversations, etc.

I have a feeling that so much in this upcoming movie will be responses/reactions to criticism they heard from TLJ. In other words, the original plans for Episode IX probably got shuffled aside in favor of damage control, ship-righting, fan-pleasing, etc. while still trying to wrap up both the sequel trilogy story AND the larger, nine-part/four-decade Skywalker saga (which are definitely two separate, distinct lines, considering how they brought back the original cast only to make them sideline, B-plot players whose only purpose was to not act like themselves for a while, and then die).

I don’t envy anyone involved. Seems like one enormous uphill battle/PITA from a moviemaking, storytelling, acting and marketing perspective!

If this thing isn’t just a jumbled mess of trying to be all things to all people here at the last minute (and failing on most every one), I’ll be pleasantly surprised. But I truly can’t see how a lazy, hacky and no-ideas-of-his-own type like Abrams, of all people, pulls it off. Especially with Kennedy’s “notes”/input dogging him the entire way.

“Remember, J.J....we need to make sure Rose gets a lightsaber in her hand at some point, and holds her own in a duel with Kylo and 6-7 troopers.”

“You got it, Kathy...sounds amazing, and exactly like something the audience would love!”

Those two...

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-11-27 at 11:06.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 11:01

George Lucas: "Kathy, tell me how this sounds: 'I truuuuly, deeeeply, looooove youuuu.'"

Kathleen Kennedy: "Yes, George, that sounds great!"

Fast forward 15 years:

JJ Abrams: "Kathy, tell me how this sounds: 'Take your lightsaber and strike me down with it. HAHAHAHAHAHA!'"

Kathleen Kennedy: "Yes, JJ, that sounds great!"

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 11:10

“J.J., also make sure we see Leia slap a male underling again, preferably one who may be questioning her judgment or plan. I cannot stress enough how important that is for young girls to see.”

“You got it, K! Left hand or right?”

“Both!”

  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 12:08

"Now explain to me again, J.J., who can and can't come back as those blue ghosts? Because I'd love to see that Jabba guy make an appearance in this thing, with his little laughing turkey-mouse friend! Those two were the best part of Return of the Jedi. I didn't understand anything at all about that zombie in the black robe...".

"Well, Kathy...that might be a tough one. You see, traditionally, only Je..."

"Don't forget who's signing your paycheck, Kid Dy-no-mite. If momma wants to see blue glowing space slugs, momma gets! Just write a little line of dialogue that explains how in his younger, thinner days he was a receptionist for the Jedis and that he picked up some of their abilities hanging around them after work, playing basketball or whatever. As long as people know there's an actual, well-thought-out and grounded reason for it, they'll totally go with it. They love it when we expand on the saga, and introduce cool new things like this, trust me! Now bring me another coffee."



Good grief, there could be a whole blog/site devoted to just imaginary(?) silly exchanges between these two doofs. There may be, for all I know.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 12:52

Four hours later...

“J.J., my man…wassssup, G. It’s me again”.

“Hey, Kathy. How’s it going? Look, I’m a little busy her…”

“Remember that thing about blue ghost Jabba? Well, forget it. It’s silly.”

“Thank goodness. I’m glad you realiz…”

“No, we’re still going to have a blue glowing space slug. But I’ve been on Wookieepedia all morning and guess what? Apparently that’s a race of creatures, called Hutts, So it doesn’t necessarily have to be Jabba. Which gave me a totally cool idea.”

“Can I go?”

“So, you know how moviegoers absolutely love heavy-handed, unsolicited political and social commentary in their popcorn movies?”

“Not really, no. In fact, I think most peo…”

“Well, this gross space slug…we’re going to credit, and call him by name, and it should get a good, knowing chuckle from the audience. This big, fat and gross space slug…he’s Warvee Hindstain, get it?! Like Harvey Wei…”

“Yes, Kathy, I totally get it. Are you sure that’s the route we want to go? That whole Nute Gunray thing from George 20 years ago hasn’t aged all that well and comes across as a bi…”

“Then what are we making these movies for, J.J.?! People need to know!”

“Kathy, there isn’t a soul on the planet who doesn’t already think the man is a disgusting, predatory slug. I’m not sure how pointing this out in a Star Wa…”

“Once again, Lost Boy…do I need to remind you who’s signing the checks around here? Make it happen. We hired you for a reason, after all. Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen. Oh, and bring me another coffee.”
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 12:58

You see, this is why you're needed around here!



Quote:
Originally Posted by pscates2.0 View Post
with his little laughing turkey-mouse friend!


You definitely need to see The Mandalorian!

**Warning** spoiler ahead

Follow the link and scroll down a bit.

Who knew that kowakian monkey-lizard was a delicacy on Tattooine.

Boise State! … Boise State! … Boise State!

Last edited by kscherer : 2019-11-27 at 13:17.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 13:21

Ha...yikes.
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 13:26

It's those easter eggs that bring out a good, honest laugh!
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 13:37

I have a feeling we're in for 2-3 dozen come December 20. It's their last chance to "go big", so there's probably going to be little nods to all of the other movies slipped in throughout, subtly and otherwise...vehicles, locations, weapons, words/phrases, props, clothing, creatures, sounds, etc.

I'm still on record: Slave 1, regardless of ownership, makes an appearance. We don't even have to know/see who's piloting it. Just the fact that it zips by on screen will be enough to get the desired reaction from many.

If they're going to include a ship from some animated, young-viewer-targeted TV show, then surely they'll give a nod to Fett's ride (and with The Mandalorian being out and rekindling interest in those guys, the timing couldn't be better).

That scene from the trailer with all those ships lined up behind the Falcon...you have to assume that's some sort of A Galaxy of Freedom-Loving Peoples Come Together to Vanquish Evil and Tyranny Once and For All™ moment, so there's no telling what vehicles may be lurking in that collection. I'm sure we'll see a few crowd-pleasers whoosh by (or getting blowed up).
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 14:12

I'm betting all my dollars the Millennium Falcon gets destroyed, and Lando with it.
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 14:29

Smart bet, especially on the Lando thing. If they'll kill off Han and Luke, then Lando is definitely toast.

I'm thinking the Falcon survives and we assume it just becomes Rey's (and Chewie's).

Hell, who's to say they're not going to off Chewie?
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 14:32

Who's to say they're not going to off Rey?
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-27, 18:09

“Hello, J.J. Got a minute?”

“It depen...okay, yeah. What’s up, Kathy?”

“The Falcon.”

“Yes, what about it?”

“What kind of mileage are we talking?”

“Is this Hamill? Dude, quit screwing around, I’m busy!”

“No, this is your boss, Kathleen Kennedy. Pay attention. The Millennium Falcon, it’s kinda like a big SUV, isn’t it? A space Hummer, if you will?”

“Kathy, the only space hummer I'd be interes…never mind.”

“J.J., we need to do something to assure the audience that this ship they’ve loved since 1977 isn’t an enemy to the environment. That’s important!”

“This story is set a long time ago in a far away galaxy. I don't think they use conventional fuel or energy as we know it. Those things probably aren't a concern. They haven’t been in eight previous movies. Honestly, you’re the first, and only, person to bring this up.”

“That’s why I’m lauded as a visionary, J.J. If I don’t ask these important questions, who will?”

“I don…I just…okay, How would we even go about it? I don’t think anyone is watching Star Wars and thinking about such things. I really don’t.”

“Well, we’re about to change that. I’ve been on the phone with Toyota all afternoon. They’ve offered us use of the Prius logo that we can place in various strategic locations around the Falcon. They only want $165 million, which I think is extremely fair and reasonable, considering…”.

“Kathy, is that not the opposite of how it usually works? Wouldn’t they pay us for the product placem...I can’t believe I’m even having this discussion.”

“I negotiate like I screw, J.J…backwards and upside down, and coming from the wrong side of the kitchen table.”

“I don’t even know what that means, Kathy.”

“You don’t have to, Bad Robot. Let’s say I’ve just made a deal that will keep the hippies off our backs forever! Hahaha…see what I did there? Remember Cloud City when Lando told Ha...”

“Are we really going to do this, Kathy?”

“J.J., nothing less than the future of our planet as we know it is at stake. Yes, we’re going to do it. Of course, that means we’ll have to come up with a new sound for the Falcon. But I’ve got Ben Burtt out at at the apiary recording angry bees. He says if he combines that with a digitally sped-up lion fart, he thinks he can get something really interesting and 'game-changing'. We’re all in this together, J.J. There will be no one to stop us this time! Oh, and when we hang up I need you to bring me a coffee.”
  quote
kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2019-11-27, 20:12

Stop it already, my sides are splitting!
  quote
pscates2.0
Mr. Farmiga
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2019-11-29, 13:00

Those 15-second TV promos are coming at a fast clip. Each new one seems to reveal 2-3 new scenes or characters, brief and hard-to-make-out as they may be. I saw a couple of them yesterday and a third this morning. If they're not careful, they'll wind up showing the entire movie, in little 1-2 second chunks!

We are now exactly just three short weeks away from the opening. I assume the marketing and hype will now truly start to kick in...promos on TV in increasing frequency, online promo/puff-pieces across various sites, the cast members (separately or together) starting to show up on talk shows, etc.

For several reasons, I believe they're going to go all out with this in ways they didn't with the other two. It's the final installment, so that's to be expected. But they also know they've got a PR/interest issue, they realize they've misfired on several fronts and are looking to go out strong and end this trilogy on some positive high note, they really need those opening weekend butts-in-seats numbers to help justify it all (and possibly avoid some high-profile head-rolling), etc.

I think from now until December 20, we're absolutely gonna OD on Star Wars! I'm looking very forward to hearing those opening weekend figures...it could truly go either way, good or not so.

Last edited by pscates2.0 : 2019-11-29 at 13:30.
  quote
Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2019-11-29, 15:01

I'm going to be the old man of the group and ask… where can I see these 15 second promos? Is there an official Disney Star Wars YouTube channel I should peek at?

I've been mostly out of the loop for any Star Wars hype this season. About the only exposure I've gotten is this big cardboard cutout of Rey with lights and sounds that motion-sensing activate and roar with the extending/activating light saber noise at some 200 decibels every time I walk by at my local Target. I've gotten accustomed to walking on the far side of the aisle when I see her in the corner of my eye.

I'm probably going to see it in the theater… alone. My wife skipped episode 8; she is so done with Star Wars, and I don't blame her. Episode 8 did further cement my distaste for the latest handling of the franchise, but optimistic fool that I am, I have extended a new hope for this final film. We'll probably find something airing at the same time so she can go see something fun while I play the role of the completionist.

The quality of this board depends on the quality of the posts. The only way to guarantee thoughtful, informative discussion is to write thoughtful, informative posts. AppleNova is not a real-time chat forum. You have time to compose messages and edit them before and after posting.
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chucker
 
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2019-11-29, 15:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
I'm going to be the old man of the group and ask… where can I see these 15 second promos? Is there an official Disney Star Wars YouTube channel I should peek at?
I guessed Twitter and I seem to be correct. In reverse-chronological order:

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1200459407823212544 (holy cow this one is annoying to watch)

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1200097021656322049 (ok, these are much better)

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1199734629298663429

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1198955861743325184

https://twitter.com/starwars/status/1198285083196547072

(These look like "Star Wars: The Greatest Hits" to me. Meh.)
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