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An unpleasant topic.
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Windswept
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2006-10-27, 17:30

I have such strong feelings with regard to the issue of female genital mutilation, that I don't even know where to begin.

A man in Georgia is being tried for the 'female genital mutilation' of his little 2-year-old daughter. Cutting out her clitoris with a pair of scissors. An article I read yesterday said that he had mutilated his little daughter to prevent the family from having shame.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2611047&page=1

Quote:
Khalid Adem, a 30-year-old immigrant from Ethiopia, is charged with aggravated battery and cruelty to children. Human rights observers said they believe this is the first criminal case in the U.S. involving the 5,000-year-old practice.

Prosecutors say Adem used scissors to remove his daughter's clitoris in their apartment in 2001. The child's mother said she did not discover it until more than a year later.

"He said he wanted to preserve her virginity," Fortunate Adem, the girl's mother, testified this week. "He said it was the will of God. I became angry in my mind. I thought he was crazy."

The State Department estimates that up to 130 million women worldwide had undergone circumcision as of 2001. Knives, razors or even sharp stones are usually used, according to a 2001 department report. The tools often are not sterilized, and often, many girls are circumcised at the same ceremony, leading to infection.

It is unknown how many girls have died from the procedure, either during the cutting or from infections, or years later in childbirth.

Nightmares, depression, shock and feelings of betrayal are common psychological side effects, according to the federal report.

The report estimated that 73 percent of women in Ethiopia had undergone the procedure, based on a 1997 survey.

Taina Bien-Aime, executive director of Equality Now, an international human rights group, said female circumcision is most widely practiced in a 28-country swath of Africa. She said more than 90 percent of women in Ethiopia are believed to have been subjected to the practice, and more in places like Egypt and Somalia.

"It is a preparation for marriage," Bien-Aime said. "If the girl is not circumcised, her chances of being married are very slim."

The practice crosses ethnic and cultural lines and is not tied to a particular religion. Activists say the practice is intended to deny women sexual pleasure. In its most extreme form, the clitoris and parts of the labia are removed and the labia that remain are stitched together.

"I had maybe read about it in Reader's Digest or some other journal, but not really considered it a possibility here," said Dr. Rose Badaruddin, the pediatrician for the Adems' daughter.

Many refugees from Ethiopia and Somalia come to Georgia through a federal refugee resettlement program.

"With immigration, the immigrants travel with their traditions," Bien-Aime said. "Female genital mutilation is not an exception."

Federal law specifically bans the practice, but many states do not have a law addressing it. Georgia lawmakers, with the support of Fortunate Adem, passed an anti-mutilation law last year. Khalid Adem is not being tried under that law, since it did not exist when his daughter's cutting allegedly happened.
This practice is beyond barbaric, and I cannot believe that international groups who are so busy investigating everything else haven't focused a bright and unflinching spotlight on this unbelievably hideous cultural abomination!!!!!!

I was wondering if any of you gentlemen have any thoughts on this general issue?

Oh, and please don't even *THINK* of using the polite term of "female circumcision" for this savage ritual. It is "female genital mutilation", period!

Last edited by Windswept : 2006-10-28 at 07:29.
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intlplby
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2006-10-27, 17:43

another thing i don't understand is why male circumcision is okay with people
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turbulentfurball
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2006-10-27, 17:43

While I don't condone his actions in the slightest, I guess that the man honestly didn't think he was doing any wrong since it's a cultural norm for him. Education is the key to stopping such practices.
And scissors!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept
[snip]
I would edit that out, it's just asking for a comment
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autodata
hustlin
 
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2006-10-27, 17:46

male circumcision is fucked up, too.
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Eugene
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2006-10-27, 17:47

The reasoning for male circumcision is archaic as well. Hygiene? Nope. For most of of us who are circumcised on these boards, it was a fad in the 70s-80s.
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autodata
hustlin
 
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2006-10-27, 17:49

Yeah, I hear the fad is dying out. Is that true?
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Windowsrookie
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2006-10-27, 18:04

Poll?
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digitalprimate
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2006-10-27, 18:39

Windswept,

I agree wholeheartedly. This and honour killings is something I don't want to discuss (in order to understand) at all. I draw my line there.
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Elysium
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2006-10-27, 18:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept View Post
Oh, and please don't even *think* of using the polite term "circumcision" for this savage ritual. It is "genital mutilation", period!
I read this article over my lunch break and was very disturbed. But the tagline of circumcision really seemed to be playing down the severity of this. Castration would have been probably more appropriate.

Old world custom? Yes. Limited in scope? Yes. Acceptable in the modern world? No.

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hflomberg
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2006-10-27, 19:14

Male circumcision has an ancient religious background - The pain lasts a short time (As if I remember what happened to me 60 years ago.) There is no long lasting effect, however there is a lot of evidence that it makes hygiene more effective.

female circumcision is totally different. It is painful for life. It insures that the woman has little or no enjoym,ent from sex.

Quite honestly - I look at female Circumcision and Honor killings as a relic of the 12th century as much as stoning and beheading!
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Yonzie
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2006-10-27, 19:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by hflomberg View Post
Male circumcision has an ancient religious background - The pain lasts a short time (As if I remember what happened to me 60 years ago.) There is no long lasting effect, however there is a lot of evidence that it makes hygiene more effective.
Not everyone agrees. However, I'm not one to say as male circumcision is apparently an American thing and only very rarely practised in Western Europe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hflomberg View Post
Quite honestly - I look at female Circumcision and Honor killings as a relic of the 12th century as much as stoning and beheading!
Then again, you must consider that large parts of Africa and the Middle East have lived in the 12th century until only recently (~20th century) and cultural stuff takes time.
That said, I don't care if it's a 100000 year old tradition, it needs to stop. Now. Daddy should have his dick cut in half to see how it is.

Converted 07/2005.
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Sauvblanc
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2006-10-27, 19:52

Honor killings...*ugh*

My dad worked in Yemen for a time. Mostly out in the desert, most of the people in the area were nomadic tribespeople.

One incident that occurred while he was there was a teenage girl who had been killed by her younger brother, it was an honor killing. Apparently the girl had been raped and got pregnant. The brother held off killing her until she'd given birth just on the off chance that the baby *might* be a boy. Dumped the body in front of the refinery where my dad worked. No idea what happened to the kid.

I agree, needs to stop. Yes, these folks might be living in the 12th century but that doesn't mean we can't reach out to them and educate them on the harm they're doing if possible.

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Moogs
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2006-10-27, 19:59

The female version of this is repugnant and inhumane to say the least. The clitoris serves no other purpose but to give the woman pleasure when making love. To cut it off is to state that you believe a woman doesn't have the right to feel pleasure during sex basically, even if she may have pleasure in other ways.

It's no different than forcing women to hide their faces behind the bee-keeper versions of their burkah (sp). Women shouldn't be seen, looked up to, valued, enjoyed, loved as a partner rather than a subservient. We can be all culturally sensitive and politically correct all we want; there are certain (current) practices of this faith which are both physically harmful and denigrating to women.

The male version is much less denigrating or harmful in terms of its side-effects (assuming it's done in the hospital and not with ali-baba and his lucky cutting stone), but I'm guessing the belief that it's more hygienic has been put to rest. So... pointless, rather than despicable and inhumane IMO.

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thegeriatric
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2006-10-27, 20:12

This kind of barbaric act, needs to be eradicated by education. In this day and age this kind of behaviour is not acceptable.

As for Male circumcision. In some cases it can be medically necessary, and that's ok but otherwise.

Please note Carol. Even though you used the term (snip) i know you had absolutely no intention of any kind of pun. as this is to serious/sad. I usually don't miss an opportunity for a joke. But even i refuse to make lite of this very sad event.

I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure.
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BuonRotto
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2006-10-27, 20:57

I don't know if it's been said but male circumcision isn't nearly as bad as female. In a first world country, male circumcision is moot point for the most part, but in other parts of the world, it prevents not only a lot of disease and infections among men, it actually helps prevent the spread of STDs. I know men supposedly have less sensitivity in the penis, but its not a major deal-breaker. I don't have a strong opinion on it in this part of the world but in places where AIDS is spreading rampantly, it's been shown to be a major health benefit in fact, believe it or not.

Female circumcision, despite the semantic similarity, is far worse, more painful and pointless. Its purpose and origins are far more nefarious as well, masquerading under a name that makes it sound like a health issue when it is quite the opposite in reality.
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Windswept
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2006-10-27, 20:59

To make this a bit more meaningful, let's turn the scenario around for a moment.

Let's imagine that ALL eleven-year-old boys are taken, and with a rusty knife, a sharp stone, or a piece of broken glass are sliced up in such a way that all sexual pleasure is forever denied them for the rest of their lives.

Can you imagine living your entire life like that?

But that's exactly what happens to all those young girls.

Many of the millions of young girls who are mutilated every year not only have their clitoris sliced out, but their minor labia are sliced completely off, and the rest of their tissue is stitched together so that only a small opening remains.

This is all done to prevent them from ever feeling sexual pleasure in their lives, to make sure they are *nothing* but the property, and sexual receptacle, of their husband.

Of course, for each childbirth, they have to be sliced open, and then sewn up again later.

And this has gone on for 5,000 years!!!


Last edited by Windswept : 2006-10-28 at 08:17.
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murbot
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2006-10-27, 21:23

My best friend had to take both of his sons in at around age 5 for medically necessary circumcision. Unpleasant, to say the least, and a little more traumatic than if it had been done immediately.

/just sayin'
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iFerret
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2006-10-27, 22:03

Not very nice at all. It is mutilation- it does need to stop.

But Carol's turned-around scenario- if I was 11 and I was mutilated like that, so I could not have sexual pleasure, I don't know what I would have done. No masturbation during my teen years, and then no sex during my adult- a very depressing scenario, put it that way.
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scratt
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2006-10-28, 00:27

This whole thing is disgusting.. and is all about the insecurities and hangups of the members of the society that do it.. All too often this kind of behaviour is linked to bogus 'religious' or 'health' reasons.. Goddam, it makes me mad Carol.

Just to give you all some perspective, my Wife is African in origin, and whilst nothing like this ever happened to her, it is all too common, and some of the other stories she has told me make my eyes water...

Human beings are pretty fucked up sometimes.. well.. more often than sometimes..

May they all rot in whatever kind of hell they believe in.

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Barto
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2006-10-28, 02:47

Male circumcision is becoming an interesting ethical issue - there is strong evidence that it reduces HIV transmission. But is that reason alone to continue the practice (where not medically necessary)?

FGM is really a totally different issue, and black and white. It's wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

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scratt
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2006-10-28, 03:19

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barto View Post
Male circumcision is becoming an interesting ethical issue - there is strong evidence that it reduces HIV transmission.
Source? Thanks.
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chucker
 
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2006-10-28, 03:24

"Unpleasant" is quite the understatement. This is nothing short of disgusting.
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Barto
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2006-10-28, 03:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratt View Post
Source? Thanks.
Take your pick. "Male circumcision and HIV infection: 10 years and counting" from the Lancet is a good one (although it's an opinion piece, not a paper).
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scratt
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2006-10-28, 04:38

Interesting thanks. As you say not really conclusive.. I wonder how much is simply to do with surface area of contact and friction per se!?!

The whole area of HIV is a turbulent one these days. With the whole gamut of conspiracy theories and corporate greed playing a part.. Most notably the large movement of varied and respected scientists even calling into doubt the link between HIV and AIDS, and attributing a lot of the 'mistakes' they say have been made to pharmaceutical fraud and a wish to find a use for stockpiled medicinces intended for a completely different and unsuccessful market-place... Bizarre. But I can't see how this can have much bearing on that really, so the anecdotal evidence seems worth further investiation.

I would be interested in more studies of the lifestyles of the peope who have and have not been circumcised.. I would tend to expect that those who have been may live in a different demographic from those that have not. Not in every case of course, but I bet there is a trend there, that may also have a bearing on infection.. Just a thought.

I am just happy that is a non-issue for me and that I can stay as Mother Nature intended. Just as everyone else should have a right to.. Male or Female.

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SledgeHammer
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2006-10-28, 06:40

"Female circumcision" is a grossly misleading term. I am not circumcised, nor will my sons be (assuming I have sons eventually), but that is not remotely the point.

The rough equivalent, on a boy, to what is being done to these girls, would be cutting off the entire head of his penis, and maybe scraping some of the skin off the rest of his penis while you were at it.

What is being done is in no way comparable to actual circumcision (literally, "to cut around"), no matter how you feel about that practice. The term is a euphemism, a banal name given to a heinous practice.

EDIT: windowsrookie, I really thought there had been a poll, but now I can't find it. Maybe I'm imagining things again.

Last edited by SledgeHammer : 2006-10-28 at 07:31.
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drewprops
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2006-10-28, 07:25

I watched a short at a film festival a few years ago that was exactly about this practice, only it was shown happening at a back alley "clinic" in a big city, possibly New York. It was a narrative, not a documentary. I thought that the people in the film were from India or Pakistan, maybe I'm wrong on that... haven't followed any links from this thread to see how widespread the practice is.

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Windswept
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2006-10-28, 08:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post
"Female circumcision" is a grossly misleading term.
Exactly!!!
Quote:
The rough equivalent, on a boy, to what is being done to these girls, would be cutting off the entire head of his penis, and maybe scraping some of the skin off the rest of his penis while you were at it.
EXACTLY!!!

Quote:
What is being done is in no way comparable to actual circumcision (literally, "to cut around"), no matter how you feel about that practice. The term is a euphemism, a banal name given to a heinous practice.
Exactly!!!

Quote:
EDIT: windowsrookie, I really thought there had been a poll, but now I can't find it. Maybe I'm imagining things again.
I haven't put in a poll, so no, you are not imagining things.

A poll asking 'what', for example? I 'had' thought of doing a poll.

I appreciate your comments, SledgeHammer. Too often it is difficult for men to put themselves in the position of these poor young girls. I think your graphic description should be immensely helpful to some in that regard.

I can't even *imagine* the agony that these poor young girls must suffer, not just in having their most tender flesh sawn off with a rusty knife, a sharp stone, or a piece of broken glass - though that experience must be unimaginably excruciating.

But the immediate and constant, agonizing infections they must suffer for long periods afterward, especially considering that many of them live in grass huts on dirt floors. I mean, think of it. Their labia sawn off, and the area horribly infected? Can you imagine the agony that even 'walking' would inflict with every single step?

Last edited by Windswept : 2006-10-28 at 08:32.
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Windswept
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2006-10-28, 08:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by scratt View Post
This whole thing is disgusting.. and is all about the insecurities and hangups of the members of the society that do it.. All too often this kind of behaviour is linked to bogus 'religious' or 'health' reasons.. Goddam, it makes me mad Carol.

Just to give you all some perspective, my Wife is African in origin, and whilst nothing like this ever happened to her, it is all too common, and some of the other stories she has told me make my eyes water...

Human beings are pretty fucked up sometimes.. well.. more often than sometimes..

May they all rot in whatever kind of hell they believe in.
Thank you for your outrage, scratt. I do very much appreciate it.

Of those stories your wife told you, are there any you might share with us?
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GSpotter
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2006-10-28, 08:32

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept View Post
A poll asking what, for example? I had thought of doing a poll.
I think he thought about the poll on male circumcision, way back...

These two practicise have nothing in common. I wouldn't have my son (if I had a child) being circumcised, anyway. But this mutilation of the female genitaly is a totally different level - it's just a barbarian act. Denying a girl / woman her sexual pleasure and sentencing here basically to lifelong pain is just plain outrageous! I'd like to put the balls of the men which are mandating these acts into a vise ... The horrible thing is (as far as I have learnt about this activities from other sources) that there are still mothers which are are involved in these actions, too, either because "it was always done this way"...

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Windswept
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2006-10-28, 09:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by GSpotter View Post
I think he thought about the poll on male circumcision, way back...

These two practicise have nothing in common. I wouldn't have my son (if I had a child) being circumcised, anyway. But this mutilation of the female genitaly is a totally different level - it's just a barbarian act. Denying a girl / woman her sexual pleasure and sentencing here basically to lifelong pain is just plain outrageous! I'd like to put the balls of the men which are mandating these acts into a vise ... The horrible thing is (as far as I have learnt about this activities from other sources) that there are still mothers which are are involved in these actions, too, either because "it was always done this way"...
Thank you for your outrage too, GSpotter. I think this hideous practice will only be wiped from the face of the earth when males across the globe become as infuriated about it as we women are. In the countries where this goes on, the outrage of women is of no importance to the men. Women are chattel to them.

A girl must be mutilated or she won't be acceptable to a future husband. That's why the mothers become involved. All of it is based on profound ignorance and the most primitive cultural backwardness. In a completely male dominant society, the woman has no importance. She is completely subservient.

No wonder this mutilation has lasted 5,000 years. There are ignorant, barbaric men in our society even today who perpetuate this kind of subservience by the way they treat their wives. Visit any run-down trailer park in America and you'll find the same mentality alive and flourishing in our own home-grown brutes.

And not just in trailer parks either. There was a New York attorney (years ago) who constantly smashed his fist into his wife's face. Her nose had been broken so many times that it was just permanently flattened, and all the bones in her face had been crushed. His treatment of her came to light when he ended up killing their lovely young daughter.

The most sick and appalling abuse goes on even today behind closed doors and in the privacy of people's homes. It is all so very sad.
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