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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-02, 06:40

I know that it's dangerous to discuss political topics, but I've been following Brexit since the beginning and it's been fascinating. I understand how things have played out fairly well, and am now interested to see how long it's going to take for things to stabilize or for the wheels to come off the British economy, taking down the architects and salesmen of the plan.

I haven't kept up with how Apple Ireland is going to handle all of the changes and new trade restrictions, if there are any.

Any of our folks been directly affected by the UK's removal from the European Union?

...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-05-02, 11:44

Well... yes. Everyone in Europe is more or less affected by the decision for the UK to leave.

My principle concern is that measures of accountancy will be used to decrease the budget of scientific funding in the UK, directly impacting not only my research programs, but also the likelihood that I continue to progress in academia. I've already been told that there is no hiring at my host institution for permanent positions for the foreseeable future partially because of Brexit, and this will govern my decisions going forward.

As for the rest? Who knows? The UK is a nation one step from collapsing to third world status at anytime given its demographics, geography, and wilful disregard for its continuing development.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2021-05-02, 16:50

I’m not sad that I got dual citizenship anyway. They’ll be ok in the long run, but they really have punched themselves in the dick by doing this.

Hopefully it will act as a sufficient lesson in what not to do to dissuade other Euro nations that were going down the same path.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-02, 19:35

It *has* to work out in the long run. Has to.

Getting there is going to be quite a journey.

A lot of sacrifice.

...
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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-05-03, 06:24

It doesn’t really have to work out. The U.K. is not the country Americans think it is. And now Europe sees it as a target, rather than a partner.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-05-03, 06:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
It *has* to work out in the long run. Has to.

Getting there is going to be quite a journey.

A lot of sacrifice.

...
Depends on what "long run" means. In the meantime, I just don't see what the average UK citizen has gained from this, and even many corporations stand to lose (and some have simply and literally moved on, by moving their headquarters to mainland Europe). It's also bad for Ireland.

But yes, in 500 years, this will probably be a rather small change.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-03, 11:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
But yes, in 500 years, this will probably be a rather small change.
Yes I was thinking in terms of the geologic record.

The single person I know in meatspace who is an ardent Brexiteer is also a Covid-resistant healthcare worker (??!!) and her boyfriend is a conservative troll... so I do find myself fighting the urge to revel in the continuing front page failures of Brexit, but people in the UK are being economically injured in very profound ways so I cannot.

When banks began relocating to the Continent (Germany?) I knew that this could be at least a generational blow to Britain and could inspire a break-away push by Scotland and more turmoil in The Irelands.

And Brexiteer heads on spikes.

But I know that the more conservative stance of giving it at least a decade to settle out is more judicial, so I'm trying to stay in that space.


...

Steve Jobs ate my cat's watermelon.
Captain Drew on Twitter
  quote
Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-05-03, 15:34

Scotland leaving is probably less likely given the troubles arising in N Ireland — a hard border between Scotland and England is a non starter for most…
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-06, 18:27

Here's an article from the New York Times about Scotland...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/w...ependence.html

...
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-08, 05:53

And just one more.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/06/99429...t=nprml&f=1001


...
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Fahrenheit
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
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2021-05-10, 16:29

An interesting and unforecast side effect of Brexit is that the UK was not within the EU-vaccine procurement programme. The programme was slow to sign contracts, thought it was being clever by trying to negotiate on price (as long as the vaccine costs less than €5000 a dose its probably good value for the economy, surely), and I'm sure looking at the UK and the EU death rates at the moment, has probably killed people. This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move. Meanwhile the UK procurement which worked in partnership with the manufacturers, supported the research and didn't quibble too much on price in exchange for first dibs, has been pretty much spot-on.

Therefore, no matter how crappy one might think Brexit was as an idea, it's so far saved a lot more lives than it has ended. And to use the awful right-wing Project fear moniker, a great deal of the problems haven't really come true (so far). Banks haven't abandoned the UK, businesses still want to trade with the UK, and the Erasmus scheme really really didn't benefit UK students like it was designed to (except middle class ones). Anyone who has been to Brussels and seen the vast buildings and tens of thousands of people working there...you do have to wonder...what the hell are you guys doing with our money? They have two parliaments! And nobody knows who represents them...honestly, European Novans....do you know who your MEP is?
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2021-05-11, 08:39

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops View Post
Here's an article from the New York Times about Scotland...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/06/w...ependence.html

...
You know, I am entirely foxed by the large number of anti-Brexit folks that are entirely pro-Scottish independence. (And, to a lesser extent, those who are pro-Brexit but anti-independence.). As far as I can tell, they're essentially the same idea, just dressed in different flag.

Historical grievance: Check
Complaints about overall centralized power: Check
Actually permitted an awful lot of local power in reality: Check

I genuinely don't get those who have directly opposite opinions on the two issues.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-05-11, 09:23

Don't people who want Scottish independence by and large want to rejoin the EU?
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
2021-05-11, 09:53

I think so, yes. That's what's so confusing.

(To be clear, my point is: I think people can construct a valid case for each. I have the one I think, but other opinions are available. What I don't get is people who argue for being in Europe because XYZ, when the same same arguments, at a different scale, are also true of being in the UK. Or Vice Versa. ie: I think neither side is using internally consistent logic.

In short, if people were being consistent, those in favour of Brexit should also be in favour of Scottish Independence, and those against Brexit should be against it.

Flippantly: "But I really hate the English!" is analogous to "But we really hate the French!" and makes about as much sense.)
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2021-05-11, 11:18

^ What that guy said.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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2021-05-11, 11:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
I think so, yes. That's what's so confusing.

[..]

In short, if people were being consistent, those in favour of Brexit should also be in favour of Scottish Independence, and those against Brexit should be against it.
“We want to leave the EU because we can do better” and “we want to leave the UK and rejoin the EU because we can do better together” don’t seem that similar to me.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2021-05-11, 12:11

Remember: the Scots were pals with the French back in the day. I do not even pretend to begin to really understand the inbred family tree of Europe.

I'm too busy dealing with my own inbred cornpone family tree.

...
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pscates2.0
Mr. Katan
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2021-05-11, 12:16

Well, Georgia.

...says the guy from Tennessee.

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Dr. Bobsky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: UK's most densely packed city. It's not London...
 
2021-05-12, 06:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
“We want to leave the EU because we can do better” and “we want to leave the UK and rejoin the EU because we can do better together” don’t seem that similar to me.
Yeah, this is the underlying logic...
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Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
2021-05-12, 14:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
“We want to leave the EU because we can do better”...
And then in the very first major crisis they faced outside the EU, they did.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2021-05-12, 16:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post
And then in the very first major crisis they faced outside the EU, they did.
Not in cases, nor in deaths. That was a brutal winter for them. (They did far worse than the US in deaths, if you can imagine that.)

In terms of vaccination, yeah, they're doing better than the EU.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
Yesterday, 14:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Bobsky View Post
Yeah, this is the underlying logic...
Exactly. The EU thing is not really relevant to the motivations behind Scottish Independence, just a convenient and contemporary add-on they've latched onto. But it certainly isn't the root of the issue.

Again, I know what I think but can understand the opposite view. I just think being pro-Brexit and anti-SI, or anti-Brexit and pro-SI requires a certain amount of cognitive dissonance about the underlying motivations.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
Yesterday, 14:22

Scexit? Scoxit? Scotchit? Hmm.
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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Yesterday, 14:46

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
I just think being pro-Brexit and anti-SI, or anti-Brexit and pro-SI requires a certain amount of cognitive dissonance about the underlying motivations.
Or it simply requires context more complex than just “a state wants independence from a nation”. If East Germany wanted to split, it would be for very different reasons than if Bavaria wanted to.

You’d have to actually analyze the context. Some of the UK had whined for decades that they were treated unfairly by the EU. Some of Scotland thinks they’re being treated poorly by the UK. One can be true and the other not.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Whitby
 
Yesterday, 16:13

Sort of. I'd say in both cases its sort of mostly not actually true, with some notable exceptions. Conceptually I'd weigh it about the same.

I do think the underlying principle that it only requires a simple 50%+1 majority to fundamentally change something so significant is insanity, though.
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drewprops
Bastard
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
Yesterday, 16:16

A nation cannot endure ping pong administrations for long and remain united.



...
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chucker
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: near Bremen, Germany
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Yesterday, 16:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
I do think the underlying principle that it only requires a simple 50%+1 majority to fundamentally change something so significant is insanity, though.
Agreed.
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Frank777
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
 
Yesterday, 17:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
I do think the underlying principle that it only requires a simple 50%+1 majority to fundamentally change something so significant is insanity, though.
We almost destroyed Canada, barely saving it with a 50.58% majority.

And yes, that's insanity.
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