[Mugge]

Seems like they did it while we were all asleep. Here's a BBC article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8066615.stm

Guess it was to be expected. But it is kinda unnerving, seeing how it's a little dubious who's actually running the country.

[JohnnyTheA]

They probably think they can squeeze more money to "pause" their program from western countries.
They will probably get it.

[PB PM]

It is more likely a ploy to pressure the south, and flex it's military arm.

[scratt]

North Korea are certainly not one of my favorite countries, but I am afraid that the "haves" are going to have to start listening and helping the "have nots" a lot more as this century grinds on. We live on a very small bit of dirt in a very insignificant part of a very large Universe. We are all on the same globe, and western corporate exploitation of the third world is a far greater crime than anything NK have done this week. So is our increasing carbon footprint. NK (like them or hate them) have said very clearly they think the world is a dangerous place and want to be able to defend themselves.. A right that all of our nuclear and non-nuclear allies all demand also, without a peep out of us. And who can blame NK when every country under the sun seems to have a western military force (backed by nuclear countries) in it, or threatening to enter it if it does not embrace democracy, Apple Pie and capitalism!!!

Also recent test launches of far more serious missiles and weaponry by unstable US / Western "allies" who are already Nuclear powers go completely unreported in the international media....

Another parallel point is the fact that Iran (for example) have very publicly stated at the highest level that Nuclear bombs are un-Islamic, and rich Iranian families are constantly ferreting money away in both domestic and foreign bank accounts for their children, whilst trying to build a future for their own country as well. These are not the actions of a suicidal regime bent on brining the world to it's apocalyptic end, as the right wing saber rattlers would have us believe they are. Israel I am looking at you there. The rhetoric coming out of Israel's politicians is scandalous at the moment! Do we hear any of this factual information about Iran? No. We simply hear what the western media would have us believe.. and the outrageous stuff that serves certain agendas.

North Korea has a very clear aim. Bilateral talks with the US, and their promised removal from the list of terrorist nations, which was promised to them and reneged on by Bush AFAIK. Oh, and money.. But then that's all Pakistan want, or Afghanistan, or any country want it seems.....
Pakistan's stance on terrorism is basically extortion at the moment.. Want it cleared up. Give us money.
If they weren't an "ally", that would play very differently in the media.

As far as NK's weapons go... They are no threat to anyone other than South Korea. As it stands they are playing right into the right wing western politicians hands.. A militarized Japan, more western satellite military bases in Asia... etc. etc. The chances of one of their missiles making it any further than their immediate neighbors before being shot down, or even getting successfully off the ground I'd give 1/1000 odds on. So why get so worked up about it?

Sometimes I have to wonder if behind the scenes the old guard actually love the fact that North Korea keep on doing what they want. It's a shame because all it does do is undermine people who are trying to resolve the whole situation. The world is a topsy turvy place.

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by scratt Also recent test launches of far more serious missiles and weaponry by unstable US / Western "allies" who are already Nuclear powers go completely unreported in the international media....

Such as / links?

As for Iran and Israel let's keep them out of this thread, lest it get locked. One thing we can all say (or the large majority of us can say) with certainty is that both Israel and Iran constantly use hyperbole in the media, so statements from either aren't worth arguing about. Everyone knows exactly what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians because it has been documented clearly in pictures, video and word for many years. Everyone also knows Iran is full of shit when is says it's ever-growing cascade of nuclear processing plants are for "peaceful purposes." If Iran were really serious only about energy, solar (and maybe wind too, I'm not sure) would be the very obvious choice. Like Spain and other countries with very dry climates and high intensity sun, Iran could easily develop solar farms for much less money than it would cost to pursue their "peaceful nuclear program".

Until the leadership of both Iran and Israel demonstrate dramatic changes in attitude and reduction in BS, neither are worthy of my respect. I can't speak for anyone else but either way... let's stick to the topic. Here we should talk about N. Korea and possibly Pakistan (a country who has had direct ties to N. Korea in the past if I'm not mistaken - during the Khan years). Leave Bush out of it too. He's gone and it's all over and done with. Focus on the now, as this is not a trivial thing necessarily. I'll be interested to see which other nuclear powers Scratt is talking about which are [equally unstable or less stable] than N. Korea. Pakistan would be the only one I can think of and they've not had any nuclear tests of late or missile tests AFAIK.

[billybobsky]

scratt, you are being naive. NK has already sold nuclear weapon designs, what's to stop them from selling weapons?

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Moogs Such as / links?

India is the one I remember most recently. They were on Al Jazera, and around the web.
I'll dig out some links, but they are not disputed in any way.

Originally Posted by Moogs As for Iran and Israel let's keep them out of this thread, lest it get locked. One thing we can all say (or the large majority of us can say) with certainty is that both Israel and Iran constantly use hyperbole in the media, so statements from either aren't worth arguing about.

Fair enough.. But strangely then you seem to want to carry on talking about exactly that...

Originally Posted by Moogs Everyone knows exactly what the Israelis have done to the Palestinians because it has been documented clearly in pictures, video and word for many years.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Moogs Everyone also knows Iran is full of shit when is says it's ever-growing cascade of nuclear processing plants are for "peaceful purposes."

Well that's exactly where you are wrong. Unfortunately you are indoctrinated by the filtered media you listen to.
Iran are very clear that they do not want Nuclear Weapons.
You miss my point completely, when as an Islamic state they have issued statements from the highest authority in their land saying that Nuclear Weapons are Un-Islamic. To then go back on that in some kind of dream western style u-turn would be totally out of character, and undermine all they believe in. Period.

Originally Posted by Moogs If Iran were really serious only about energy, solar (and maybe wind too, I'm not sure) would be the very obvious choice. Like Spain and other countries with very dry climates and high intensity sun, Iran could easily develop solar farms for much less money than it would cost to pursue their "peaceful nuclear program".

Can you back that statement up. Spain's project is awesome, but not cheap, or viable right now.

Originally Posted by Moogs Until the leadership of both Iran and Israel demonstrate dramatic changes in attitude and reduction in BS, neither are worthy of my respect. I can't speak for anyone else but either way... let's stick to the topic.

Ok...

Originally Posted by Moogs Here we should talk about N. Korea and possibly Pakistan (a country who has had direct ties to N. Korea in the past if I'm not mistaken - during the Khan years). Leave Bush out of it too. He's gone and it's all over and done with. Focus on the now, as this is not a trivial thing necessarily.

Ok...

Originally Posted by Moogs I'll be interested to see which other nuclear powers Scratt is talking about which are [equally unstable or less stable] than N. Korea. Pakistan would be the only one I can think of and they've not had any nuclear tests of late or missile tests AFAIK.

Like I said. India. And I don't consider India, as relatively stable as they are to be, that far off the lunatic fringe. Sorry. But that's my view.

The bottom line from my perspective are there are a lot of countries talking about the security of the globe, and so forth, and a lot of countries out in the cold, unless they accept doctrine and viewpoint that they don't want.

Just because you don't embrace Democracy, and have a different form of society from ours does not mean that you are automatically evil. Can you enlighten me as to what NK has done to endanger the world over and above the actions of the US, or the UK in the last 20 - 30 years?

All have sold nuclear technology. Only the last two have actually started wars in recent history.

All have and continue to sell weapons to small countries all over the world.. The last two to a much much larger degree than NK...

Yep, NK has a society I would not choose to live in, and their leader is a nut ball.. But (and I am going to bring Bush back in, sorry) so was Bush...

The bottom line is all countries have a right to defend themselves and it's unrealistic for the US, or UK, or any other Western country to say that it's not OK for some country they don't like to have Nuclear Weapons, because Nuclear Weapons are bad mkay, but still have and threaten to use them themselves... because the very logic that our governments use to try and stop other countries having nuclear weapons must also hold for them too. If you have them you might use them...

All of that responds rather well to billybobsky's point also..
The US constantly lets 'ally' countries, and it's impossible not to think of Israel here, have Nuclear Weapons if it deems it ok. It is not OK, and the US (UK or whoever) are just as guilty of spreading these weapons around.

NK want them for themselves and self defense. They are not gong to start a World War. They'd lose.
The US et. al. know that but don't want to give them any room at the big table.

Same goes for Iran.. and they don't even want any Nuclear Weapons, as they have said very very clearly both internally and externally. It is we who choose to label them liars. And frankly I wouldn't care if they did want them. I am just as nervous of the UK or the US having them, and doubly so Israel.

It is we who are being naive if we listen to the crap our media and our governments feed us.

[Maciej]

Originally Posted by scratt Well that's exactly where you are wrong. Unfortunately you are indoctrinated by the filtered media you listen to. Iran are very clear that they do not want Nuclear Weapons. You miss my point completely, when as an Islamic state they have issued statements from the highest authority in their land saying that Nuclear Weapons are Un-Islamic. To then go back on that in some kind of dream western style u-turn would be totally out of character, and undermine all they believe in. Period.

I've got to agree here. Although I don't pretend to know what their true intentions are, I wish I could get more of a two sided, objective, perspective to the situation. I think that we should let things develop a little bit further before crucifying the entire nation. I'm all for continuing our development of the "missile shield" and for peaceful negotiations, at least at this point. If they ever proceed to nuclear armament tests, like NK, I think there will still be plenty of time to respond.

[curiousuburb]

Wasn't it Pakistan's "Father of the Bomb" AQ Khan who trafficked WMD plans to NK/Syria/Libya/others?

Perhaps the NK's have resold the designs since, but IIRC the proliferation didn't start with them. And Khan got pardoned by Musharraf and was just released from 'house arrest'.

And Great/Dear/Whatever Leader, I can't listen to NK weapons talk without this popping into my head.

[ezkcdude]

We should worry about all nuclear weapons, but I feel that most of the discussion by world leaders is just posturing. The real action probably takes place covertly, and we won't really know about it until someone writes a book or makes a movie about it 20 years from now.

[billybobsky]

Originally Posted by curiousuburb Wasn't it Pakistan's "Father of the Bomb" AQ Khan who trafficked WMD plans to NK/Syria/Libya/others?

you're right, but I had thought that nk had sold plans as well -- perhaps not...

[Moogs]

Originally Posted by scratt Can you back that statement up. Spain's project is awesome, but not cheap, or viable right now.

Spain has multiple installations currently powering small to medium sized cities AFAIK. I'll look it up. I think Sevilla was one of the cities being powered / partially powered. And another enormous station is being built somewhere in Australia as well, so this technology is definitely past the laboratory stage. It's early but definitely being deployed now in real-world applications. It's not cheap but given the scale of Iran's nuclear plants that I've seen... I can't imagine a solar mirror farm would be more expensive than these thousands of enrichment machines Iran has been making. Also Iran just successfully tested a medium range ballistic missile which, let's be real here... there's only one kind of warhead you're going to place on a missile like that and it's not traditional explosives and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's unlikely to be chemical weapons either.

I will see what I can find to back up the cost differential between developing a solar farm vs. a large nuclear enrichment plant but no promises. I'm just going by general intuition here, knowing how expensive nuclear power can be to build out from scratch.

Anyway, back on track...

India surely has its share of problems but I would suggest they're quite a bit less lunatic fringe (given the huge international business presence and culture ingrained there and the growing middle class) than say Pakistan. Certainly less than N. Korea which is run by a guy who has indoctrinated his entire population and military to view him as a God-like figure, saving his country from the evil S. Koreans, the US and everyone else who is out to get them. You have there a population and military that is paranoid, hungry and badly misinformed (even compared to the idiots here who believe everything they see and hear on CNN).

As for my "indoctrination", sorry but I do read around from different sources. BBC does a pretty good job on international affairs and covering things you don't get covered here in the US (such as Israeli conflicts from an Israel-neutral POV for example). BBC doesn't tote the Israeli party line like the US media does, so when they suggest there are elements to this that are a big deal (as well as Iran), I don't think that would count for me being indoctrinated. I mean I dunno... if you can show me a better source of international news that has a good reputation around the world, I'm certainly open to it. But just as we have to allow for the possibility that we're mislead by the right-wing US media, you have to concede you might be being mislead by the left-wing SE Asian media outlets you favor.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by curiousuburb And Great/Dear/Whatever Leader, I can't listen to NK weapons talk without this popping into my head.

That's what pops into my head whenever I see him too.

On a slightly different tack we just watched The International here. A lot of insight in that movie.. and it kind of bears out ezkcdude's viewpoint, which I also subscribe to.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Moogs Spain has multiple installations currently powering small to medium sized cities AFAIK. I'll look it up. I think Sevilla was one of the cities being powered / partially powered. And another enormous station is being built somewhere in Australia as well, so this technology is definitely past the laboratory stage. It's early but definitely being deployed now in real-world applications. It's not cheap but given the scale of Iran's nuclear plants that I've seen... I can't imagine a solar mirror farm would be more expensive than these thousands of enrichment machines Iran has been making. Also Iran just successfully tested a medium range ballistic missile which, let's be real here... there's only one kind of warhead you're going to place on a missile like that and it's not traditional explosives and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say it's unlikely to be chemical weapons either. I will see what I can find to back up the cost differential between developing a solar farm vs. a large nuclear enrichment plant but no promises. I'm just going by general intuition here, knowing how expensive nuclear power can be to build out from scratch.

I'd be interested to see that, and I am no expert, but pound for pound I still think Nuclear comes out cheaper from what I understand. Hence the US building them, and the UK building them etc. etc. etc.
If renewable energy was cheaper in the short run you can be sure more people would do it! It's common sense.
And actually is probably (ironically) easier for Iran to achieve nuclear aims because of pointless embargoes it is suffering because of our ridiculous stance in the west, and the fact that the technology produces massive amounts of energy from quite a simple tested process...

Originally Posted by Moogs Anyway, back on track... India surely has its share of problems but I would suggest they're quite a bit less lunatic fringe (given the huge international business presence and culture ingrained there and the growing middle class) than say Pakistan. Certainly less than N. Korea which is run by a guy who has indoctrinated his entire population and military to view him as a God-like figure, saving his country from the evil S. Koreans, the US and everyone else who is out to get them. You have there a population and military that is paranoid, hungry and badly misinformed (even compared to the idiots here who believe everything they see and hear on CNN).

I don't disagree with what you say, but it's a very simple cartoon to draw.
The reality is far more complex as I am sure you know.
From a purely arbitrary perspective the lauding of the 'Office of the President" in the US like he's some kind of 4 year renewable constitutional monarch, or the surprise people feel today in the UK that all our politicians are stealing from us, is equally silly when portrayed using similar language to your own...

And as far as India and Pakistan go.. They were at war not so long ago, are wildly untrusting of each other to this day, and we effectively *gave* them Nuclear weapons! I rest my case.

Originally Posted by Moogs As for my "indoctrination", sorry but I do read around from different sources. BBC does a pretty good job on international affairs

No it doesn't. Not any more IMHO.

Originally Posted by Moogs and covering things you don't get covered here in the US (such as Israeli conflicts from an Israel-neutral POV for example). BBC doesn't tote the Israeli party line like the US media does, so when they suggest there are elements to this that are a big deal (as well as Iran), I don't think that would count for me being indoctrinated. I mean I dunno...

They walk a middle line. But not exactly in the middle. So I would colour their viewpoint also as being slightly pro-Israel in terms of the fact that they back off when told to, when it conflicts with British / US / Middle Eastern interests.
They certainly must be a breath of fresh air when compared to certain US news channels. But don't for a second think you are getting the whole truth.

Originally Posted by Moogs ..if you can show me a better source of international news that has a good reputation around the world, I'm certainly open to it. But just as we have to allow for the possibility that we're mislead by the right-wing US media, you have to concede you might be being mislead by the left-wing SE Asian media outlets you favor.

Well I watch them all. Frankly for simply reporting *everything* you need to give Al Jazera a try.
And it is widely respected. THey are significantly different from the image of them that is portrayed by the traditional media based on a reputation they got many many years ago. It's a bit like Lancia (the car maker) they never recovered from the rust reputation they had, despite leading the way in underbody sealing for many many years after the initial debacle.

Yes I know that people are going to rush in here and say all the same old misguided things they always do about Al Jazera. But with any news outlet / newspaper / medium you need to research the writers, and presenters and understand their viewpoint. Nothing is ever totally unbiassed or free from an editorial viewpoint. But at least it's not being coloured by government or big business like it is for the BBC, CNN, FOX etc. etc. etc

I can give examples of non contentious issues where the western media has lost interest after the initial explosion or big death toll, or political upheaval (read ratings grabbers) and Al Jazera keeps us up to date consistently until the end of the story.... If you look at those and ask yourself honestly about both their coverage and their staying power outside of this discussion it may be more clear. With any issue they really are more interested in the news than selling you crap, sponsoring the weather, or running adverts in-between stories of Ma Bakers cat getting stuck in a tree and having to be rescued by the fire man!

I cannot remember any news story on BBC or CNN in recent years where I even believed the presenters understood the issues, or gave a damn, or even managed to get the correct story across in any way.

For example, the recent Thai problems were so blatantly reported out of context by CNN, BBC and so forth because they simply don't even understand the issue. Democracy was "threatened" so the people doing it must be wrong. It was as simple as that. No background. No actual facts. No real understanding of the issue. The BBC's main source of info was from a Thai exile who is hiding in the UK because he insulted the monarchy, is a Red Shirt (Thaksin) supporter and failed academic. But he was touted as an independent expert! As I have already posted here about. During the recent Thai riots where news channels had breaking news that 2 people had been killed by the military in Thailand, they were completely wrong. Al Jazera got it right. Two protestors were killed by pissed off locals who were sick of their houses being damaged. At the same time in Thailand that those 2 people died and 76 people went to hospital the international news completely missed the 6000 people (yes Six Thousand) who were seriously injured and/or died in road accidents in Thailand at the same time during our annual water festival. No real excuse as they had people here in the country. Al Jazera covered it.... Perhaps CNN could not fit it in and still run their hotel adverts for Hilton Hotels.

MyanMar.. Western media lost interest in that a few days after the initial riots. While reporting, the CNN and BBC were
saying "we won't forget you", the people there were saying "please don't". One week later it might as well not have happened. Al Jazera was still reporting.

The same for SriLanka.

The same for Iraq now.

The same for Gaza.. Have you heard anything about Gaza recently? I suppose it all stopped, right?

I don't subscribe to one media outlet. But I do admit to having favorites. They may sometimes even seem to lean towards the viewpoints I have... But I am interested in all sides, and from all sources. It's just embarrassing that CNN and the BBC are totally crap.

And frankly even on Gaza Al Jazera are almost painfully fair to Israel. If you actually watch they are the channel that gives the *most* air time to the Israeli spokespeople. They get their own time to spout rhetoric, and then they are questioned, hard. But I don't know what else you can ask for?

It's frustrating that on the recent banking issues, and every aspect of our life where our governments or big business have some stake in the issues we cannot ever assume we are getting the truth from any of our national media outlets.

And Asian news channels? What are they? They only watch soaps here! Even in immigration when you are getting your visa stamped they have one eye on the communal tv... Honestly!

[curiousuburb]

NYTimes Analysis seems to say it was 'for domestic demonstration purposes'

Originally Posted by NYT Timing of Test Hints at Succession Issues ... Monday’s test culminates a shift toward a more assertive foreign policy by North Korea, which some analysts said seems to have begun not long after North Korean leader Kim Jong-il is believed to have suffered a stroke in August. In fact, the test could well reflect the succession crisis now gripping North Korea, these experts say. Speculation has focused on his youngest son, Kim Jong-un, which would continue the family dynasty to the third generation — one unique among Communist nations.. Some experts say the test was a display of might aimed at showing solidarity with North Korea’s powerful military, whose support would be essential in securing Mr. Kim’s choice of successor. Others believe the intended audience was North Korea’s largely impoverished population, in hopes a display of technological prowess could serve as the elder Mr. Kim’s legacy in a regime that has failed to deliver even basic food and electricity. Either way, the North Korean government likely hopes the test will help ensure a smooth transition of power — and, perhaps, show that the elder Kim is still very much in charge, at least for now. “Kim Jong-il wants to show that he has given his nation mighty nuclear power,” said Yoon Deok-min, a senior researcher at the Institute of Foreign Affairs and National Security, a Seoul-based research organization. “This test was absolutely a domestic demonstration.” Analysts call the test a sign that the ruling family may be preparing for a transition. Last month, when Kim Jong-il’s brother-in-law, Jang Seong-taek, joined the National Defense Commission, the most powerful group in the North Korean government, said Kim Sung-han, an international relations professor at Korea University in Seoul. He said Mr. Jang’s promotion may be a move to secure support from the military in case Mr. Kim’s health worsens. In April, South Korean media reported that Kim Jong-un, who is in his mid-20s, was appointed to a low-ranking job in the commission. Mr. Jang, Kim Sung-han said, may also be a caretaker until the younger Kim is old enough to assume power in a society that values seniority. “The test is a signal of Kim Jong-il’s desire to build good ties with the military,” he said. “The military is key to the succession.” Many experts said that with the North Korean leader’s health problems, Pyongyang may feel as it can no longer wait for progress in a forum like the so-called six-party talks, which include the United States, North Korea, South Korea, Japan, China and Russia. Instead, Pyongyang may be trying to speed up the process by forcing Washington into direct talks, say experts. ... continues ...

And it sounds like another generation is being groomed... so Great/Dear/Whatever might not be far off.

[scratt]

And if the so called 'experts' keep on giving a view every time something happens... One day they might get lucky and have guessed right!

Meanwhile those same experts are still looking for Bin Laden, Scaramanga, and The Jackal.. At least one they are sure is real, another might be, but a novel and a movie which was quite popular has them a bit confused. But one thing they are sure of is that Scaramanga is real.

Oh, and Kim Jong-il is still dead. Like they said last time they had a view... Right?

[Mugge]

I should have seen this coming. I gave up on this thread at "western corporate exploitation".

[Moogs]

scratt: check PMs for points about BBC journalistic integrity vs. Al Jazera, India, Iran, and solar. We're just going to derail this thread if we keep going on this tack, even though the issues are somewhat related in the larger picture.

[@_@ Artman]

Originally Posted by Mugge I should have seen this coming. I gave up on this thread at "western corporate exploitation".

Hard to swallow, I agree, but even though this monologue is from a 30 year old movie, it still holds water...or oil.... You might have to change or update the countries mentioned (like Arabs with Chinese or Soviets with Russians) but it is still a valid observation from Paddy Chayefsky.

Scratt, I find your observations and opinions close to mine. But North Korea treats it's people like shit. They may well do the same to South Korea or Japan the very same way if pushed into a corner. But I believe that they, as some of the other countries with nukes are doing the same. Using them as a bargaining chip for aid and relationships.

[Argento]

The only Nuclear weapons anybody needs to be afraid of is the one that's going to shoot out of me in the next 10 minutes. Stupid burrito.

[scratt]

Originally Posted by Moogs scratt: check PMs for points about BBC journalistic integrity vs. Al Jazera, India, Iran, and solar. We're just going to derail this thread if we keep going on this tack, even though the issues are somewhat related in the larger picture.

Yeah. That's cool. I am about to crash for the night, but will read your PM tomorrow and flame you back on the private line accordingly!

[Moogs]

I didn't flame you... honest.

[World Leader Pretend]

I discovered Al Jazeera English on accident and have been using it as a primary source of finding new news topics from around the world for a while now. I was pretty impressed with it and the articles all seemed very reasonable and informative. It wasn't until I was trying to find a news article in one of my classes and instinctively pulled up Al Jazeera that a bunch of people got all over me for reading that "propaganda." I still don't get it. I definitely can spot shady news reporting and Al Jazeera doesn't trip many major alarms off.

If it's propaganda then it's pretty damn good propaganda.

[curiousuburb]

IIRC some of their staff were trained by ex-BBC journalists, so maybe some impartiality/editorial/ethics/skills/etc rubbed off.

[@_@ Artman]

Originally Posted by Argento The only Nuclear weapons anybody needs to be afraid of

are the ones that North Korea would sell to some other rogue country/organization.

Hope your burrito incident was less of a kiloton than North Korea's.

[Moogs]

Now at Taco Bell... the 20 Kiloton Burrito... so hot it will make your hair fall out. Limited time only.

[@_@ Artman]

NKorea warns of attack, says truce no longer valid

North Korea said it was abandoning the truce that ended the Korean war and warned it could launch a military attack on the South, two days after testing an atomic bomb for the second time. The announcement came amid reports the secretive North, which outraged the international community with its Monday, was also restarting nuclear fuel work that could make plutonium for an atomic weapon. Defying international condemnation, the regime of Kim Jong-Il said it could no longer guarantee the safety of US and South Korean ships off its west coast and that the Korean peninsula was veering back towards a . The North's anger was provoked by the South's decision to join a US-led international security initiative, established after the September 11 attacks, to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. "Those who have provoked us will face unimaginable merciless punishment," the statement on the official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA) said, blaming Washington and for the latest turn of events.

[Moogs]

On the one hand it does all smack of "Hey you! Look over here! Send us aid or we'll blow you up!" On the other the power brokers in this country are not playing with a full deck. Desperate countries do desperate things sometimes. What I'm unclear on is, does N. Korea have somewhat normalized trade relations with China? Is there a flow of goods into N. Korea from China IOW?

[@_@ Artman]

Well, I have heard stories that aid/trade that is sent to North Korea via train are received, but NK keeps the trains that came with it.

China has probably had enough of this posturing too.

Who do I think would stop them from going over the line?

Two would be The U.S. and South Korea. A war on China's border. But that's everyone's nightmare.

China could most likely invade North Korea, not only to ensure stability on their borders, but simply to deny territory to the United States. (and prevent N. Koreans from being refugees into China). On the plus side, even that scenario would be likely to result in the reunification of families, if not territories

With the obligatory awkward moments like "Wife #2, meet wife #1. She waited chastely for me for all those decades. Isn't that cute?"

[scratt]

NK's stance is so far out there it's almost insulting that they would make statements that are such a thinly disguised attempt to gouge money from the international community.

The crops must have been bad this year.

Frankly, I'd be quite happy if China stepped in. They won't of course.
The US will most likely test the limits of international waters right to the edge and over, either themselves or by proxy through South Korea.

And it will all end in tears, or NK will get some kind of compromise.

What a waste of everyone's time.