What's the deal here? I live and die by my Mac, Mac Magazines, and would also do so with the iPhone, but don't care for the new AT&T (formerly Cingular). This is nothing more than a simple rant, but why would they do something so stupid as to lock into a single carrier? Just doesn't make sense in my book.

Anyone else feeling this way? I'm sure you are...

I'm curious as to why they decided to live in such a narrow scope. The only thing I can figure is they are so tight with Sony and I believe Sony/Ericsson is exclusively with AT&T (Cingular) that they felt the need to follow suit.

Whatever....guess Apple will miss my money for this product line. I'm happy Verizon an plan to stay there.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by bevansciw What's the deal here? I live and die by my Mac, Mac Magazines, and would also do so with the iPhone, but don't care for the new AT&T (formerly Cingular). This is nothing more than a simple rant, but why would they do something so stupid as to lock into a single carrier? Just doesn't make sense in my book. Anyone else feeling this way? I'm sure you are... I'm curious as to why they decided to live in such a narrow scope. The only thing I can figure is they are so tight with Sony and I believe Sony/Ericsson is exclusively with AT&T (Cingular) that they felt the need to follow suit. Whatever....guess Apple will miss my money for this product line. I'm happy Verizon an plan to stay there.

I don't really follow your logic with Apple following Sony, but the most likely explanation for partnering with AT&T was that they are the country's largest GSM provider. Verizon uses CDMA, which isn't used in most of the world, so had Apple gone that route, they would need to design a second iPhone with a GSM chip for Europe and Asia. Plus, IIRC, CDMA chips take up more space than GSM.

I don't see what Sony has to do with it. At all.

[Kraetos]

CDMA wasn't an option. Verizon* and Sprint are therefore immediately off the table.

Now we're down to AT&T and T-Mobile. AT&T is bigger in the US. Easy choice. AT&T isn't just the largest GSM carrier in the US - their the largest carrier in the US, period.

Need more information? On Third Party Development for iPhone.

If it makes you feel any better, at the rate AT&T is building towers, GSM will eventually surpass CDMA in the US as well. Perhaps even by the end of the decade.

*Even if CDMA was an option, Verizon was not - they insist on putting their own mediocre UI on all their phones.

[Graphguy]

Huh? What do you mean CDMA wasn't an option? GSM is superior to CDMA of course, but it wouldn't have taken that much to release two versions of the iphone. Nokia and the other manufacturers do it all the time...

[Wyatt]

I remember (from way back) reports that Apple offered it to Verizon first, but they wouldn't cooperate on the level that Cingular did. Remember, Cingular restructured their entire voice mail system to accommodate the iPhone's visual voice mail. They also signed on for an exclusivity deal and provided development support without ever even seeing the phone. Verizon refused to do things like this, so Cingular got the deal.

[Partial]

I must say I am prepared to see the iPhone fail. It is quite expensive for your average iPod-touting teenager. Especially since they already have iPods now.

[ccoulson]

Originally Posted by tensdanny38 I must say I am prepared to see the iPhone fail. It is quite expensive for your average iPod-touting teenager. Especially since they already have iPods now.

Those iPod-toting teenagers that purchased Gen 1, 2, 3, 4 iPods are now entering into their first real jobs and have (what they think) is disposable income. Heck, I paid over $700 for a VCR in 1986 simply because it was one of the first "Hi-Fi" models... Further, iPods are fashion statements - kids won't want to be seen with a 2006-era iPod...

[Banana]

Yeah, that's one of luxury being a teenager with a job; almost 100% of your wage can be spent on fun things, since you've already accounted for housing and board (courtesy of your parents), and have no utilities payments to keep up with.

While it'll be a wait and see about older demographic, I wouldn't be too surprised if teenager snapped up iPhones like they did with iPods.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Graphguy Huh? What do you mean CDMA wasn't an option? GSM is superior to CDMA of course, but it wouldn't have taken that much to release two versions of the iphone. Nokia and the other manufacturers do it all the time...

I mean that it would've been a huge waste of resources to release a phone using an inferior technology that isn't used anywhere else in the world. Apple probably considered it for a few seconds before moving on.

Anyone who thought that the iPhone would be CDMA before it came out wasn't paying attention. It really simply isn't a road Apple will ever go down with the iPhone, unless CDMA makes some sort of roaring comeback, here and elsewhere.

Originally Posted by tensdanny38 I must say I am prepared to see the iPhone fail. It is quite expensive for your average iPod-touting teenager. Especially since they already have iPods now.

And what makes you think that the iPhone is limited to teenagers and college students? Both my parents are totally pumped for it. Any professional using a Mac is most certainly considering one - their previous options have been the aging Palm OS, the incompatible Windows Mobile of BlackBerry*, or the barely compatible Nokia-flavored Symbian.

Furthermore, will it stay at $500 for long? Of course not. The iPod didn't take off until the third generation, at $300. Not to mention the mini, at $250. The iPhone will only become less expensive and spout cheaper variations as its lifecycle continues, and there will be more than enough early adopters to keep it profitable in the interim.

Just like the iPod.

*Yeah third party syncing alternives exist, but in the face of superior software and hardware from Apple, will these users really stick to what they have? Many will, but many wont.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by Kraetos I mean that it would've been a huge waste of resources to release a phone using an inferior technology that isn't used anywhere else in the world. Apple probably considered it for a few seconds before moving on. Anyone who thought that the iPhone would be CDMA before it came out wasn't paying attention. It really simply isn't a road Apple will ever go down with the iPhone, unless CDMA makes some sort of roaring comeback, here and elsewhere.

You amuse me. Your reasoning is just so poor. Despite only being primarily popular in America, that's still over 100 million potential units..... no idea how you could possibly consider that a small market and one not worth pursuing.

Apple already announced a CDMA version is in the works.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Apple already announced a CDMA version is in the works.

They did?

I recall that:

• WiMAX is coming
• 3G is coming
• Europe is coming (Q4)
• Asia is coming (2008)

Where was CDMA mentioned? And, considering Cingular will be exclusive in the US for years to come, what market would it be used in?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses You amuse me. Your reasoning is just so poor. Despite only being primarily popular in America, that's still over 100 million potential units..... no idea how you could possibly consider that a small market and one not worth pursuing. Apple already announced a CDMA version is in the works.

Except for the part where AT&T is picking up customers at Verizon's expense.

It took two years for Verizon to release a CDMA RAZR. When they did, it was fatter and consumed more battery life. And Verizon insisted on sticking their own UI on it. The number of phones out there with both a GSM and CDMA version is miniscule - the vast majority of phone manufactures simply produce completely different phones, which I can't see Apple doing.

I can say with 99% certainty there will be no Verizon iPhone, nor has Apple announced such an iPhone.

[Brave Ulysses]

Originally Posted by chucker They did? I recall that: WiMAX is coming 3G is coming Europe is coming (Q4) Asia is coming (2008) Where was CDMA mentioned? And, considering Cingular will be exclusive in the US for years to come, what market would it be used in?

Correction. WCDMA. Used in Japan.

Still CDMA technology.

And it is very easy to add a CDMA version.... if they desired. They probably don't at this time.

Except for the part where AT&T is picking up customers at Verizon's expense.

and Sprint? You don't even deny there is a market of millions of CDMA users out there.

That's a viable market.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Correction. WCDMA. Used in Japan. Still CDMA technology.

Japan's FOMA (as well as UMTS/3GSM) does indeed use W-CDMA, but that's a 3G network. What the US has is CDMA2000, which is 2G. The two are technologically similar (hence the same "CDMA" in their names), but ultimately still incompatible. And for 3G data transfer, the US's CDMA networks won't use HSDPA, but EV-DO, which is also incompatible.

and Sprint? You don't even deny there is a market of millions of CDMA users out there. That's a viable market.

I don't think Kraetos is denying that there is a large market of CDMA users in the US, but with Apple's intention of trying to do exclusive contracts wherever possible (e.g., also in Europe), a CDMA iPhone version for the US seems quite unlikely.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Brave Ulysses Correction. WCDMA. Used in Japan. Still CDMA technology. And it is very easy to add a CDMA version.... if they desired. They probably don't at this time.

What chucker said.

And no, its not easy to make a CDMA version. You don't just swap a few chips. The two technologies are very different.

and Sprint? You don't even deny there is a market of millions of CDMA users out there. That's a viable market.

Millions of CDMA users. Hundreds of millions of GSM users. The former is continually losing customers to the latter.

Easy choice.

[Partial]

Originally Posted by Kraetos And what makes you think that the iPhone is limited to teenagers and college students? Both my parents are totally pumped for it. Any professional using a Mac is most certainly considering one - their previous options have been the aging Palm OS, the incompatible Windows Mobile of BlackBerry*, or the barely compatible Nokia-flavored Symbian. Furthermore, will it stay at $500 for long? Of course not. The iPod didn't take off until the third generation, at $300. Not to mention the mini, at $250. The iPhone will only become less expensive and spout cheaper variations as its lifecycle continues, and there will be more than enough early adopters to keep it profitable in the interim.

Personally, I don't know too many parents with that sort of disposable income. Well, I do, but they're older and would rather not throw their money away. Also, most people that have Blackberries, etc are provided to them through their company. I highly doubt you'll see many corporations swithc to the iPhone.

I think you'll see the iPhone drop some in price, but I don't think the capacity increases will occur as frequently then.

I also think they are playing to the high-school female crowd. That group that is very attached to their phones for text messaging, etc.

To me, its just another overpriced piece of equipment that people are suckered into buying. I mean I could take the free phone from my provider, and make a small down payment on a used car, or pay a month of rent, or go out to the bars as much as i'd like for a month, etc.

Originally Posted by Kraetos I can say with 99% certainty there will be no Verizon iPhone, nor has Apple announced such an iPhone.

I will say this is an absolutely idiotic move if they want to penetrate the corporate market. As I previously said, I doubt they'll have much penetration. Avoiding Verizon all together would solidify this stance that much further. Most large companies with bases all across the nation use verizon because

[bullet]they get service everywhere[/bullet]
[bullet]nation wide business plans are very affordable in that situation[/bullet]

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Furthermore, will it stay at $500 for long? Of course not. The iPod didn't take off until the third generation, at $300. Not to mention the mini, at $250. The iPhone will only become less expensive and spout cheaper variations as its lifecycle continues, and there will be more than enough early adopters to keep it profitable in the interim.

To expand on this:




fscklog's graph says it all. As of two quarters ago, the average selling price of an iPod is less than half what it was in early '04, when the iPod mini was introduced, and it's only gonna keep going further down. (The spike around late '05 / early '06 must be mainly due to the introduction of the video-capable iPod.)

There is absolutely no reason to believe the iPhone will be different. The first revision will be early adopters only, just like the first two revisions of the iPod were. As time passes by, features (be it GPS, 3G or flying toasters) will get added, and so will simpler versions at lower price points.

[Graphguy]

I don't know what the definition of failure is for the Iphone, but personally I doubt that Apple is going to meet the numbers they have projected. Or that the Iphone will live up to the expectations.

1: Business-users are a big market in the US, but the Iphone isn't really suited for their needs, so except the Mac-wielding businesspeople (of whom there aren't that many), they're not going to pick up on it.

2: Price, not only of the Iphone but also for the service. Cingular is going to try to milk it's customers for whatever they can get.

3: Fashion: Especially the young consumers, get a new cellphone pretty much every year. As soon as their contract runs out, they get a newer, shinier phone.
At 500$ the Iphone is too expensive for a yearly fad.

4: Touchscreen display: This isn't something new, it's not like Apple has reinvented the wheel. The reason, I suspect, why other manufacturers haven't tried to implement it before, is because your regular keypad works so damn well. It's one of the best UI out there.
I could be wrong, Apple might have made a kickass touchscreen display that will never scratch, and that is way better than the ones that are out there, but I have my doubts. (Personally I prefer real keys. You can't beat tactile feedback)

5: Durability. If the Iphone is as easy to scratch as the Nanos were, expect an angry mob of people outside the Cingular-dealer. Cellphones get thrown around alot, share pocketspace with coins, etc. The touchscreen-display might make the situation even worse.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by Graphguy 1: Business-users are a big market in the US, but the Iphone isn't really suited for their needs,

Are you going to back that up?

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Graphguy I don't know what the definition of failure is for the Iphone, but personally I doubt that Apple is going to meet the numbers they have projected. Or that the Iphone will live up to the expectations. 1: Business-users are a big market in the US, but the Iphone isn't really suited for their needs, so except the Mac-wielding businesspeople (of whom there aren't that many), they're not going to pick up on it.

Of course, the iPhone works perfectly fine with iTunes on Windows, and given that Windows Calendar uses the .ical format, I imagine that integration there is a simple matter as well.

2: Price, not only of the Iphone but also for the service. Cingular is going to try to milk it's customers for whatever they can get.

If the past 4 months have taught us anything, its that Apple has Cingular by the balls. Cingular has added a new feature to their entire network - visual voicemail - at Apple's request for a phone that probably isn't going to take off for another two years. If Apple says the iPhone will now cost $400 or $300, Cingular will agree.

3: Fashion: Especially the young consumers, get a new cellphone pretty much every year. As soon as their contract runs out, they get a newer, shinier phone. At 500$ the Iphone is too expensive for a yearly fad.

Kinda like how the iPod fad passed when Creative, Dell, Rio and Microsoft came out with newer, hipper audio players, right?

Look two years down the road, when the iPhone costs $400. Look five years down the road when the iPhone nano costs $250. Foresight, my friend.

4: Touchscreen display: This isn't something new, it's not like Apple has reinvented the wheel. The reason, I suspect, why other manufacturers haven't tried to implement it before, is because your regular keypad works so damn well. It's one of the best UI out there. I could be wrong, Apple might have made a kickass touchscreen display that will never scratch, and that is way better than the ones that are out there, but I have my doubts. (Personally I prefer real keys. You can't beat tactile feedback)

Touchscreens aren't new, but the multitouch display has never been mass marketed, and I bet Apple has a patent on it.

You might be right on the tactile feedback, but I wouldn't bet on it. OTOH, by not including a keypad, the face of the iPhone can do many different things better and more intuitively than a phone that is encumbered by a numerical keypad.

5: Durability. If the Iphone is as easy to scratch as the Nanos were, expect an angry mob of people outside the Cingular-dealer. Cellphones get thrown around alot, share pocketspace with coins, etc. The touchscreen-display might make the situation even worse.

Oh, you mean like how people stopped buying iPods when they found out they scratch easily?

In all seriousness, the back of the iPhone is aluminum, which is scratch resistant. On top of that, Apple stated that the front the iPhone is more resilient than the iPod casing. But if all else fails, buy a damn case. Tens of millions of iPod customers have, and hundreds of millions of cell phone customers have.

The bottom line regarding the iPhone is this:

The iPhone we see today is a shadow of the iPhone we will see in three years, which will do more and cost less. The first two iPod revisions were not what made the iPod a cultural icon; the third, fourth, fifth, generations and spin off products did. Calling the iPhone a flop now shows an incredible lack of foresight.

[Graphguy]

Are you going to back that up?

First of all it's not going to be 3G, second: It's a closed system. Business-users like their custom-apps.
Then there's the question of compatibility with Lotus Notes, Outlook, Word, or some of the other important business apps that the competition: Windows Mobile, Palm or even Nokia phones are compatible with.

Don't get me started on the touchpad, which might look nice, but isn't even half as useful as a keypad that Blackberries and some of the other business-phones have.

And of course there's the question of cost. Corporate HQ prefers to spend 2-300$ on a cellphone, than 500$

[Sketch]

Originally Posted by Kraetos Look two years down the road, when the iPhone costs $400. Look five years down the road when the iPhone nano costs $250. Foresight, my friend.

wonder what iPhone nano would look like .

Originally Posted by Graphguy : Business-users are a big market in the US, but the iphone isn't really suited for their needs, so except the Mac-wielding businesspeople (of whom there aren't that many), they're not going to pick up on it.

I just checked Blackberry 8800 series, they have mentioned the track ball as a major feature. So what are you going to call the multitouch technology? Besides, iPhone pretty much contain what Blackberry 8800 have minus the keyboard and probably also the Tethered modem.

Btw it is iPhone not Iphone

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Graphguy First of all it's not going to be 3G, second:

Not now, anyway.

It's a closed system. Business-users like their custom-apps.

Unconfirmed. And in the long run, unlikely.

Then there's the question of compatibility with Lotus Notes, Outlook, Word, or some of the other important business apps that the competition: Windows Mobile, Palm or even Nokia phones are compatible with.

The iPhone supports open phone syncing technology, address book, and calendar formats. That's enough to ensure it compatibility with many apps. Microsoft isn't the be-all, end-all of software, and not only is their marketshare shrinking, they are finally being forced onto open standards as well.

Don't get me started on the touchpad, which might look nice, but isn't even half as useful as a keypad that Blackberries and some of the other business-phones have.

Really? The way I see it, the lack of wasting space on a touchpad allows the calendar, address book, to-do list, and internet browser utilize twice as much space, therefore making it more useful as a "business-phone."

And of course there's the question of cost. Corporate HQ prefers to spend 2-300$ on a cellphone, than 500$

I'm sorry, the RAZR cost $500 when it came out, and I saw suits everywhere using that anodized-aluminum hunk of junk.

And don't get me started on having some foresight again. The $600 iPhone is for early adopters.

[Graphguy]

The first two iPod revisions were not what made the iPod a cultural icon; the third, fourth, fifth, generations and spin off products did. Calling the iPhone a flop now shows an incredible lack of foresight.

Well, I'm not saying it's going to be a flop, that's impossible to say now. But I doubt it'll be as popular as some people think it will, let alone meet Apples very ambitious numbers.
Unlike the portable MP3player, cellphones are allready a pretty mature market. Most people already have their preferences, there are lot's of very skilled and experienced manufacturers already, and lot's of operators besides the few that Apple has chosen to work with (On a worldwide basis). They're used to subsidizing phones, so that people basically get the phone for free for a one year contract. It's a very tough market to penetrate.

[cosus]

The iPhone isn't marketed at all towards the business market I imagined. It's meant to find its home with consumers, the vast majority of cell users.

[Banana]

Originally Posted by Graphguy Unlike the portable MP3player, cellphones are allready a pretty mature market. Most people already have their preferences, there are lot's of very skilled and experienced manufacturers already, and lot's of operators besides the few that Apple has chosen to work with (On a worldwide basis). They're used to subsidizing phones, so that people basically get the phone for free for a one year contract. It's a very tough market to penetrate.

Maturity != Difficulty of Penetration.

Just because it's been around longer, is more widespread, and heavily competed over, does not mean it is innovative. Reading earlier threads about cell phones in general, you easily can see how consumers are screwed, and may have to choose between two mediocre phone, deal with shitty UI that changes with every phone, among host of other issues.

I'd think that cellphone market is long due for serious innovation, which is what Apple is trying to do here.

[Graphguy]

The iPhone supports open phone syncing technology, address book, and calendar formats. That's enough to ensure it compatibility with many apps. Microsoft isn't the be-all, end-all of software, and not only is their marketshare shrinking, they are finally being forced onto open standards as well.

Open-shmopen... I'm sure someone the iPhone would fit someone like you nicely, but when it comes to corporate users, it's got to be compatible with the software they already use. And 95% of the time, that means Outlook, Word and all the other Microsoft goodies. (Ok, occasionally Lotus Notes)

Really? The way I see it, the lack of wasting space on a touchpad allows the calendar, address book, to-do list, and internet browser utilize twice as much space, therefore making it more useful as a "business-phone."

I'm sure you mean keypad, and I guess you never tried sending an email with predictive input, like the iPhone is going to have.
It's fine for short messages, but not for lot's of emails or for finishing a report.

I'm sorry, the RAZR cost $500 when it came out, and I saw suits everywhere using that anodized-aluminum hunk of junk.

You forget that they probably got a big fat discount from the carrier. Something that I doubt Cingular will make a habit of, after they sold their soul to Apple. As I recall, Cingular isn't going to see much of the 500$ the iPhone is going to cost.

[apple007]

Speaking as a self-employed businessman, I've been waiting years for iPhone. In fact, I've been going month-to-month with Verizon since early '05 for exactly that reason.

As for the success of iPhone, I don't understand how anyone can look at the early projections and not see "success" written all over iPhone. A survey I read last week said huge numbers of people are interested in iPhone even at the current prices, and interest doubled or tripled when the price was reduced by $100 or $200.

Further, Cingular reportedly has over a million people on their iPhone contact list some 2 months before the phone even ships. Unless this thing is shown to cause cancer or weighs 14 pounds, I can't see how it's not a smash hit from Day 1.

[Kraetos]

Originally Posted by Banana Maturity != Difficulty of Penetration. Just because it's been around longer, is more widespread, and heavily competed over, does not mean it is innovative. Reading earlier threads about cell phones in general, you easily can see how consumers are screwed, and may have to choose between two mediocre phone, deal with shitty UI that changes with every phone, among host of other issues. I'd think that cellphone market is long due for serious innovation, which is what Apple is trying to do here.

Bingo.

Originally Posted by Graphguy Open-shmopen... I'm sure someone the iPhone would fit someone like you nicely, but when it comes to corporate users, it's got to be compatible with the software they already use. And 95% of the time, that means Outlook, Word and all the other Microsoft goodies. (Ok, occasionally Lotus Notes)

And who says that the next versions of Outlook and Word wont support these open formats? Windows Calendar already does. Furthermore, Apple Mail already works with Exchange servers! No reason the Mail app on the iPhone wont either.

I think the iPhone is going to be a lot more compatible than people think. We're not dealing with the Apple of 1992 here, people. We're dealing with the Apple that dropped FireWire support for iPods, a superior technology, in favor of USB support becuse it was more widespread.

I'm sure you mean keypad, and I guess you never tried sending an email with predictive input, like the iPhone is going to have. It's fine for short messages, but not for lot's of emails or for finishing a report.

The iPhone uses a full QWERTY onscreen keyboard for email and texting, and is superior than the BlackBerry due to on-the-fly error correction.

You forget that they probably got a big fat discount from the carrier. Something that I doubt Cingular will make a habit of, after they sold their soul to Apple. As I recall, Cingular isn't going to see much of the 500$ the iPhone is going to cost.

The RAZR was $500, after discount, when it first came out. And I don't know how many times I need to say this: the price of the iPhone will come down.

[Partial]

You assume entirely too much Kraetos.