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Arctic resources up for grabs?
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Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-08-01, 19:00

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html

Quote:
Russia to sink flag to Arctic Sea floor in oil, land grab

MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- An expedition aimed at strengthening Russia's claim to much of the oil and gas wealth beneath the Arctic Ocean reached the North Pole on Wednesday, and preparations immediately began for two mini-submarines to drop a capsule containing a Russian flag to the sea floor.

Akademik Fedorov is carrying about 100 scientists in a bid to stake Moscow's claim to the Arctic sea bed.


The Rossiya icebreaker had plowed a path to the pole through an unbroken sheet of multiyear ice, clearing the way for the Akademik Fedorov research ship to follow, said Sergei Balyasnikov, a spokesman for the Arctic and Antarctic research institute that prepared the expedition.

"For the first time in history people will go down to the sea bed under the North Pole," Balyasnikov told The Associated Press. "It's like putting a flag on the moon."

Russian scientists hope to dive in two mini-submarines beneath the pole to a depth of more than 13,200 feet, and drop a metal capsule containing the Russian flag on the sea bed.

Balyasnikov said the dive was expected to start Thursday morning and last for several hours.

The voyage, led by noted polar explorer and Russian legislator Artur Chilingarov, has some scientific goals, including the study of Arctic plants and animals. But its chief goal appears to be advancing Russia's political and economic influence by strengthening its legal claims to the gas and oil deposits thought to lie beneath the Arctic sea floor.

The symbolic gesture, along with geologic data being gathered by expedition scientists, is intended to prop up Moscow's claims to more than 460,000 square miles of the Arctic shelf -- which by some estimates may contain 10 billion tons of oil and gas deposits.

The expedition reflects an intense rivalry between Russia, the United States, Canada and other nations whose shores face the northern polar ocean for the Arctic's icebound riches.

About 100 scientists aboard the Akademik Fyodorov are looking for evidence that the Lomonosov Ridge -- a 1,240-mile underwater mountain range that crosses the polar region -- is a geologic extension of Russia, and therefore can be claimed by it under the U.N. Convention on the Law of the Sea.

The subs will collect specimens of Arctic plants and animals and videotape the dives.

The biggest challenge, scientists say, will be for the mini-sub crews to return to their original point of departure to avoid being trapped under a thick ice crust.

"They have all the necessary navigation equipment to ensure safety," Balyasnikov said.

Denmark hopes to prove that the Lomonosov Ridge is an extension of the Danish territory of Greenland, not Russia. Canada, meanwhile, plans to spend $7 billion to build and operate up to eight Arctic patrol ships in a bid to help protect its sovereignty.

The U.S. Congress is considering an $8.7 billion budget reauthorization bill for the U.S. Coast Guard that includes $72.96 million to operate and maintain the nation's three existing polar icebreakers. The bill also authorizes the Coast Guard to construct two new vessels.
God, doesn't Russia have 'enough' territory under its control, with an abundance of natural resources, without having to try to grab all this land?

It's too bad that arrangements haven't long since been made to protect against individual nation *claims* on the Arctic. Surely its resources should not be vulnerable to this sort of land grab. Or am I wrong about that?

Is it too late for reasonable, cooperative, multi-nation planning, or will the Arctic be the newest source of conflict between nations?

Thoughts? Ideas for reasonable compromise?

Will the land and resources indeed go to the first and the strongest?

Thanks for any replies.
  quote
thegeriatric
geri to my friends
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Heaven
 
2007-08-01, 19:09

Get all the powers to be together. Thrash out an agreement, everyone invests, everyone shares in the spoils. Work together for all to benefit.

Simple job done.

(If only it was that easy)

I used to be undecided.....But now I'm not so sure.
No trees were harmed in the sending of this message. However, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
  quote
World Leader Pretend
Ruling teh World
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boston, MA
 
2007-08-01, 19:12

But, but we still have the moon right? That has to count for something...
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-08-01, 19:26

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeriatric View Post
Get all the powers to be together. Thrash out an agreement, everyone invests, everyone shares in the spoils. Work together for all to benefit.

Simple job done.

(If only it was that easy)
So, the nations that have land bordering the Arctic would be the ones involved in the agreement?
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2007-08-01, 19:38

If all that's required is planting your flag, then the US has control of the moon. No other country can send anything to the moon.
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
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2007-08-01, 20:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by World Leader Pretend View Post
But, but we still have the moon right? That has to count for something...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran23kk View Post
If all that's required is planting your flag, then the US has control of the moon. No other country can send anything to the moon.
Guess the law schools will eventually have to put together new courses on Interplanetary Law then, huh?

Real estate. Mineral Rights. Etc.
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
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2007-08-01, 21:16

The Canadians will have something to say about it before it's all done Carol. Much of that territory up north has traditionally been thought of as part of Canada but it was all ice so it's a difficult thing to know.

IMO the only country involved with no say, is the US, unless territories off the borders of Alaska are in question, which they're not in this case AFAIK. More on the Greenland side I believe. Speaking of which I had no idea Greenland was a Danish territory. Odd such a small country has rights over an entire continent. Anyway, Go Canada.

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
World Leader Pretend
Ruling teh World
 
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2007-08-01, 21:21

Greenland is a continent?
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
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2007-08-01, 21:24

Nope

  quote
World Leader Pretend
Ruling teh World
 
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2007-08-01, 21:26

Mmm... thank you captain obv- wait! I asked the question!
  quote
Moogs
Hates the Infotainment
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-08-01, 21:31

DOH. Brain fart. No idea why I wrote that. Must've been thinking of Australia (the island continent). Only missed by a hemisphere. WTF. That's what happens when you start pondering too much about monsters that rise from the depths of Greenland to destroy New York.

...into the light of a dark black night.
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
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2007-08-01, 21:32

haha. Easy to mix up the two.
  quote
Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
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2007-08-01, 21:48

My understanding of this is that international treaty has led to two interpretations of how the boundaries in the Arctic meet. One, preferred by the US, Canada, and (IIRC) Norway, and the other preferred by Russia, Iceland, and (I think) Finland. Neither interpretation has been tested in international court. Russia is planting a flag (which is still a valid and legal claiming method under international law) to help bolster their claim of interpretation.

It's not a case of them waltzing into a completely undisputed international area, they've been arguing that their border extends further north for years. this is an attempt to claim that disputed section.
  quote
Windswept
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2007-08-01, 21:58

Ahhh... the voice of reason.



P.S. - I can just see the thought in some people's minds: "Damn! We need to get down there and steal that flag!"

  quote
Kickaha
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2007-08-01, 21:59

LOL I thought the same thing...
  quote
Windswept
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2007-08-01, 22:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
LOL I thought the same thing...
It seems like the perfect fraternity prank, don't you think?

Where *ARE* those guys when we need them?
  quote
ghoti
owner for sale by house
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
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2007-08-01, 22:06

They're busy moving the pole. But shush, don't tell the Russians!
  quote
Windswept
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2007-08-01, 22:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghoti View Post
They're busy moving the pole. But shush, don't tell the Russians!
  quote
InactionMan
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2007-08-02, 09:09

Fucking Russians.

Every Arctic nation is in the process of trying to prove the sea bad beneath the arctic ice is attached to their land. Is really not going to be quick or pretty fight over the area. Not surprisingly, Canada's PM hasn't said a word yet despite campaigning on Arctic Sovereignty and promising to invest several billion dollars on a new fleet of ice breakers to patrol the area.

The Globe and Mail has a good graphic showing the area: Link

Given that there are only five nations that can claim the land it would seem fairly logical for some sort treaty that would give them all equal access to the resources. But with Putin trying to usher in the fifth Russian empire it's unlikely they'll even consider playing nice. If Russian isn't going to play nice then I'd rather see the other arctic nations band together to stave off the Russians.

I wonder how long it'll take the Canadian government to respond.
  quote
Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-08-02, 09:16

Maybe it's time to exercise our 2nd Amendment! Especially the polar bears, who has always claimed Artic!

  quote
murbot
Hoonigan
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Canada
 
2007-08-02, 10:31

We kicked their asses in '72, we'll do it again.

Motherfuckers.
  quote
Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2007-08-02, 11:11

Interesting topic indeed. Looking around the pole shows that the contestants are: USA, Canada, Greenland (Denmark), Norway and Russia. I think that if this ever gets really serious the NATO partners might just still be smart enough to gang up on Russia.

Oh, and what's the big thing about dropping a pod with a flag inside on the sea floor? You could just toss it off the back of an icebreaker. In my opinion the Russians are just putting up a show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thegeriatric View Post
Get all the powers to be together. Thrash out an agreement, everyone invests, everyone shares in the spoils. Work together for all to benefit.

Simple job done.

(If only it was that easy)
Not really. Some people don't like sharing.

For example: Today Russia mainly derives it's political and economic power from it's ownership and control over it's oil and gas resources. They would probably like it to stay that way, hence they needs as big a share as possible of what oil and gas the Arctic area ha to offer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moogs View Post
The Canadians will have something to say about it before it's all done Carol. Much of that territory up north has traditionally been thought of as part of Canada but it was all ice so it's a difficult thing to know.

IMO the only country involved with no say, is the US, unless territories off the borders of Alaska are in question, which they're not in this case AFAIK. More on the Greenland side I believe. Speaking of which I had no idea Greenland was a Danish territory. Odd such a small country has rights over an entire continent. Anyway, Go Canada.
Well, that's what happens when you are the first to learn how to sail across the oceans.

On a serious note, I'm a little concerned that mr. Harper might spend too much attention on USA and Denmark instead of Russia. As far as I have heard in the press Denmark and Canada already have an understanding that about how the Hans Ø issue is about to be solved, but I did read somewhere that USA and Canada are upping the rhetoric towards each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot View Post
We kicked their asses in '72, we'll do it again.

Motherfuckers.
Let me guess. It has something to do with hockey?

  quote
Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
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2007-08-02, 11:13

Canada starts WW3. Who knew?
  quote
Banana
is the next Chiquita
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
 
2007-08-02, 11:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugge View Post
Let me guess. It has something to do with hockey?

If losing 7-3 to USSR qualifies as "kicking their ass", I'd hate to think what they would call it if they won the game.
  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
Join Date: May 2004
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2007-08-02, 11:31

Speaking of ass-kicking...

http://espn.go.com/classic/s/miracle_ice_1980.html

Spoiler (click to toggle):


Edited: (USA defeats Russia in 1980 Olympics. )




*derails own thread*


Last edited by Windswept : 2007-08-02 at 12:16.
  quote
kieran
@kk@pennytucker.social
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
 
2007-08-02, 11:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windswept View Post
Speaking of ass-kicking...

http://espn.go.com/classic/s/miracle_ice_1980.html

Spoiler (click to toggle):


(USA wins Olympic gold over Russia, 1980 )




*derails own thread*

Not true Windswept. The US beat them in the semifinal game. They beat Finland to win the Gold Medal.
  quote
PB PM
Sneaky Punk
 
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2007-08-02, 12:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryson View Post
Canada starts WW3. Who knew?
Sounds good to me, somebody has to teach the Ruskies a lesson! Heck send me and M16 and I'll take them on myself!
  quote
turbulentfurball
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2007-08-02, 12:15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha View Post
planting a flag (which is still a valid and legal claiming method under international law) to help bolster their claim of interpretation.


I hereby claim this thread for Scotland.
  quote
Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2007-08-02, 12:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Sounds good to me, somebody has to teach the Ruskies a lesson! Heck send me and M16 and I'll take them on myself!
According to the Russian propaganda on YouTube you might require something with a little more punch.

  quote
Windswept
On Pacific time
 
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2007-08-02, 12:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieran23kk View Post
Not true Windswept. The US beat them in the semifinal game. They beat Finland to win the Gold Medal.
Oops.

Edited.
  quote
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