[Dr. Bobsky]

If there is a civil suit, *maybe* Baldwin's production company would be partially liable... but there's insurance for this.

He's not going to be held personally liable with any charges. He was handed a loaded gun and told it wasn't. It was a tragic accident that shouldn't have happened.

[psmith2.0]

I agree. He had no way of knowing, and he was going on the say-so of what he assumed were in-the-know crew members. He couldn't have known, and it wasn't his job/responsibility to check (would he even know how?). 1-2 of said crew - whose responsibility it was to ensure safe, non-firing props - may get in some hot water, though. They were the last ones to handle the gun before handing it to the actor.

The company/production outfit will likely be sued into oblivion, especially if it comes out that safety was lax, corners cut, the wrong people hired to handle such an important job, etc.

I just find it so weird that real, functioning guns are even used. Nothing on a movie set should be capable of firing real bullets; there should be zero question or doubt ("was this gun properly prepared/rigged up, or am I gonna accidentally kill my co-star or a crew member this afternoon?" should be the last thing going through anyone's mind). You're Hollywood, ffs...make some accurate, properly-weighted, but non-functional, replicas where there's zero chance of one ever being capable of firing a bullet and hurting/killing someone. You can make superheroes fly, spaceships shoot lasers and dinosaurs walk...you can convincingly pull off all those things, but you can't come up with a way to depict battle scenes, shootouts, duels and executions that ensures nobody actually gets shot and dies on a film set?!

Come on, there's no excuse for this kind of thing ever happening again.

Reading about Ms. Hutchins at IMDb, I don't recognize any of her previous work, but it looked like she'd been working steadily as a cinematographer (or doing other film crew work) since 2012 or so, with many credits for such a short period of time (32 in less than a decade). Such a shitty story, all around. She was only 42 and had decades to work/grow in her profession.

I do find it interesting that movies always make a point, toward the end of the credits, to let it be known that the Humane Society, ASPCA or whoever had reps/monitors on set and that "no animals were harmed during the filming of this motion picture".

"Hey, don't worry! The horses, cattle and dogs are totally fine...but, unfortunately, we did lose a crew member for the stupidest reason you could ever imagine."

[Dr. Bobsky]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 I agree. He had no way of knowing, and he was going on the say-so of what he assumed were in-the-know crew members. He couldn't have known, and it wasn't his job/responsibility to check (would he even know how?). 1-2 of said crew - whose responsibility it was to ensure safe, non-firing props - may get in some hot water, though. They were the last ones to handle the gun before handing it to the actor.

And some had been using the weapon for target practice or so the rumors seem to indicate. Stupid all around. We're at a point where CGI can just about make everything look real-enough, so these weapons on set should just be phased out completely.

[psmith2.0]

I’m all for plastic/resin/rubber/wood replica, non-functioning props. But the sound, smoke, muzzle flash, etc. can all be faked via dubbing/CGI/simple effects by any production of any size. And even low budget ones can figure out a way where a real gun, capable of firing a real bullet, isn’t anything they have to risk using. Repaint toy guns that could never, in a million years, somehow accidentally fire a real bullet - cosplayers do this all the time, turning plastic, colorful Nerf guns into realistic-looking sci-fi blasters/weaponry.

Then let the sound and visual effects artists create the realism afterwards. Nobody dies.

But, yeah…something that just fired real bullets an hour earlier doesn’t need to used for movie-making where faulty setup and human carelessness/incompetence is all that stands between a harmless prop and a functioning firearm. That’s insane!

The risk is too great. No movie -$6M budget or $250M - should have to worry about this happening. It was a shock to me to know this is what is often used. I assumed they were all just stylized toy guns with no functioning parts. I had no idea, in 2021, it was possible to actually be shot by a working gun on a movie set! I figured that Brandon Lee accident put an end to that, decades ago.

If I’m Ms. Hutchins husband, I’m making it my life’s work to see such a thing never happened again. Whatever laws or industry regulations it took enacting or updating.

I wouldn’t want her death be for nothing.

[drewprops]

The asshole who lied to the crew to get them out onto the train trestle for the Alman Brothers movie went to jail but he's out now and he is STILL in the DGA. Figure that one out. His name is Randall Miller and the young woman he murdered is Sarah Jones.

There's a reason crews are in revolt.

...

[psmith2.0]

I heard about that. There’s video (partial?) of it. Ugh.

For those unfamiliar with the incident.

[drewprops]

I will not watch that video.

Good friends of mine worked side by side with Sarah.

It's like a raw wound in Atlanta.


...

[psmith2.0]

There’s a part in the article I linked where someone - either the director or someone speaking on his behalf - was asked if they had clearance/approval/permits to be filming on that train bridge.

It was answered with the most weasel-like, politician-caught-with-hand-in-the-cookie response imaginable: “it’s complicated”.



No, jackwit…it isn’t. At all. That you’d answer such a simple question that way screams the real answer. That part of the article actually pissed me off, someone answering with that.

Someone else pointed out, afterwards, that “no it isn’t…you either did or you didn’t”, which, of course, is true.

“It’s complicated” is the answer given by someone who knows they screwed up. Things are only as complicated as people want to make them. The truth, even if ugly or painful, is, by its very nature, almost always quite simple and straightforward. What’s “complicated” is maintaining lies/bullshit, trying to CYA.

[psmith2.0]

Some actual info/details...

Warrant: Baldwin was "practicing" with gun.

Witnesses said actor Alec Baldwin was "practicing" with a gun when it went off before filming started on the set of "Rust" in New Mexico, according to new information released Sunday in search warrants. The new information includes previously unreported statements from director Joel Souza and cameraman Reid Russell.

Cameras weren't rolling, it was a setup/rehearsal type of scenario.

The cast and crew had taken a lunch break, and when they returned, Souza told authorities, he wasn’t sure if the firearm to be used by Baldwin had been checked anew for safety.

First mistake.

Sounds like director was looking over the shoulder of Ms. Hutchins, so they were both lined up and directly in the line of fire of the bullet...it hit/passed through her and hit the director in the shoulder. She got the full, direct hit. Makes it sound like they were doing something I speculated about several days ago...a dramatic, stylish "character shooting into the camera" type of shot? For them to be there, in front of Baldwin, the director and cinematographer both sharing the same perspective/vantage point and seeing how it looked? Maybe they had those little handheld lens things to help compose/frame the shot? I've seen clips of Spielberg, Scorsese and others doing this, working out angles, camera placement/movement, etc.

...they had Alec sitting in a pew in a church building setting, and he was practicing a cross draw. Joel said he was looking over the shoulder of Halayna, when he heard what sounded like a whip and then loud pop." The director said he vaguely remembers Hutchins' reaction. She was "complaining about her stomach and grabbing her midsection," according to the warrant. "Joel also said Halayna began to stumble backwards and she was assisted to the ground," it said. "Joel explained that he was bleeding from his shoulder and he could see blood on Halayna."

All this aside, all I keep wondering is...why/how was a gun fitted with real bullets present and handed to an actor to use? Who did that - Ms. Gutierrez? - and why?

Talk about something that never should've happened...this whole thing wins the prize.




Finally, from the Irony of All Ironies Dept., this is the plot synopsis of Rust posted at IMDb, which I just noticed this morning:

A 13 year-old boy, left to fend for himself and his younger brother following the death of their parents in 1880's Kansas, goes on the run with his long estranged grandfather after he's sentenced to hang for the accidental killing of a local rancher.

The movie's plot hinges on an accidental killing, for heaven's sake. You can't make this kind of stuff up.

[drewprops]

Camera was up. The DP wasn't looking through the viewfinder on the camera, sounds like they were looking at a small LCD monitor clipped to the camera - common practice. Director was looking over shoulder of DP. Sounds like DP was operating since camera crew were leaving.

Super super super fucked up show.

So fucked up.

...

[psmith2.0]

Low-budget movies + inexperienced directors = uh oh.

Not all the time, of course not. But the potential is certainly much higher with that combo than with a $200M+ Spielberg/Universal project, with all the proper personnel, permits, protocols, etc. in place.

This guy has six writing/directing credits, going back to 2010. Haven't heard of any of them, so he's still part of that independent, smaller thing, with limited budgets, etc.

Like the Allman movie, it leads to corner-cutting, shooting without permits or the hiring of top, experienced people (armorers, people from the train company/linemen, etc.).

Most movies, nothing bad comes from that "renegade, guerrilla" type of moviemaking. Small, independent low-budget movies like this are made all the time, I'm sure.

But it's just tempting fate to do so, when you toss guns (or trains) into the mix, and when everyone's doing everything wrong/half-assed, something awful is probably going to happen. Only a matter of time. You can only roll those dice so many times.

Yeah, this an an absolute waste of someone's young life. I truly hope it's not in vain, and that something gets put in place so this is the last time a story like this ever gets reported. It's ridiculous, is what it is. No excuse, good grief. It's 2021...figure out better, safer and smarter shit. Every other industry has.

[kscherer]

Umm, two questions:

1) Was a real bullet used?

2) If (1) = "Yes", why?

In other words, it's a movie set, not a firing range. Why were there *any* real bullets anywhere to be found? In fact, why were there any cartridges on set that contained anything other than blanks?

This whole thing makes no sense to me.

None.

[psmith2.0]

That's what I've been asking since Thursday night, when drew first posted the story. I never assumed anything other than noise-making caps (for actors to react to, with bigger, boomier sounds dubbed in later) were ever in use on movie sets. I didn't know it was possible to get shot while making a movie, after that Brandon Lee incident (and that was way back in the early 90's). I figured things changed following that. This has all been news to me.

"Wait...they use actual guns, capable of shooting real bullets if not properly prepared/inspected?! Uhhhh...why? Why would anyone take that chance/risk, just to make a silly movie?"

I thought they all used plastic or die-cast, painted-up/weathered cap guns for moviemaking, and the sound and effects/CGI guys did the rest.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 That's what I've been asking since Thursday night, when drew first posted the story. I never assumed anything other than noise-making caps (for actors to react to, but better sounds dubbed in later) were ever in use on movie sets. I didn't know it was possible to get shot while making a movie. This has all been news to me.

Same. I assumed they'd be using bright green airsoft guns or whatever, with weights to make it feel more realistic.

If there's one place I don't mind CGI, it's faking weapons. CGI guns can't kill anyone.

Every time I see one of those shots where the gun is pointing directly at the camera, I cringe. I was taught to always always always treat every gun like it's loaded and to never point it at something you don't mind destroying. Violating those rules for the sake of a movie has never sat right with me.

[kscherer]

The consensus seems to be that a real bullet was used.

My boss had this question: Was someone trying to "get back" at Alec Baldwin over his portrayal of Donald Trump on SNL?

That would be a tough swallow, but …

Which leads me back to my question: Why was a real cartridge with a real charge and a real bullet anywhere* on that set?

*Security people excluded.

[psmith2.0]

Plastic, non-firing replicas/props can't kill anyone. I don't think a production has to go through the labor/expense of creating 3D/CGI guns and all the effort needed to convincingly put them in someone's hand...seems a bit excessive to me. But plastic, weighted props that could never fire anything are okay with me. They can even outfit them with a little electric speaker/noisemaker that makes a sound for people to respond to...toy guns exist that do this. And then add all the noise, smoke, flash, etc. later. I'm totally okay with that.

Nobody's going to die from that, and that would be the perfect middle-ground between safety and realism. Actors have something to hold, use, hear, etc. but there's no way anything could ever possibly come out of its barrel (except water if it got left in the rain).

But anything that has ever served time as a real, working gun...I wouldn't use. Things get lodged or unnoticed (the Brandon Lee thing), or lack of communication/not checking multiple times (Rust) could happen.

EDIT: Eh, not getting into a silly bicker/squabble session on the banning of fake/prop guns too…uncle!

Figure out a way, Hollywood. That’s what you do…make the unreal look real. If a T-Rex can eat a car, then you can surely make it to where nobody gets shot on a movie set.

[turtle]

I have to say I don't think there needs to be a regulation of using firearms on set. This seems like a good idea on the surface but cheaper lower budget operation would suffer trying to make a realistic gun fire when it is a plastic mold. You just can't really simulate the recoil of a weapon with it actually discharging on a (low) budget.

I will say though, I think anyone that handles a weapon on set needs to be trained through an NRA-like firearms safety course. If you remember what I posted up thread about by "Scorned" photo op, my wife and I were ever vigilant because it is the way we handle firearms, period.

If Alec had that level of care, he would have checked the chamber to ensure it was empty before doing anything else with the weapon. Had he found a round in it I'm sure he wouldn't have pulled the trigger and certainly not at people he didn't intend to kill. (Then again, maybe he hated her. )

I'd also think insurance companies will charge more for sets that use live weapons of any kind. If it can fire a projectile then it needs to be covered by insurance. Sure it won't bring back someone's loved one, it would at least help the future of those left behind.

In the end, I do believe the responsibility falls to the person who pulled the trigger. He should have looked and verified he wasn't going to kill/hurt someone.

[psmith2.0]

No guns need to be fired/present for a movie. That’s just asking for it. It’s not that important, IMO.

But, yes…if, for whatever reason, they opt to do so, then regardless of budget, there needs to be trained, experienced personnel on set, and the actors involved, whatever their personal, real-life stance on guns happens to be, receiving basic training. At the very least, how to check to ensure nothing is weird or loaded.

Pick one. Go to another approach completely or hire the right people and make sure people know WTF is up.

Nobody gets forced to be a “gun nut”, join the NRA or anything else that might go against someone’s beliefs/stances, but if you’re going to portray a character who uses a gun, you are going through some basic training/understanding of things, even if just a one-day course. And there will be a quiz.

I said above that, while not his “job” or primary responsibility to check, if I’m Alec Baldwin and someone hands me a heavy, real gun…guess what? I’m checking anyway. No way in hell I just take someone’s word on it. Personally, I’m too curious and too much a control freak to be okay with important stuff on t he say-so of others, so I know damn well I’d be checking, just so I would know.

I bet Baldwin pissed his pants when that damn thing went off and he saw what it did. He was the last person in that chain of handling. Had he checked, for whatever reason(s), this never happens.

“Hey, there are bullets in here…uh, what the hell, guys? I was about to practice drawing this thing, right here in front of Hylina and Joel! Who the hell handed me a gun with bullets?!” (at which point the news story would’ve been about the on-set wig-out of the notoriously hot-tempered Baldwin screaming at crew members).

But she’d still be alive.

It’ll have to become policy that the actor themselves, the final link in that chain, check for themselves to confirm it’s a “cold gun” and not solely go on the word of others (who, in this case, obviously didn’t know…whoever handed the gun to Baldwin and announced “cold gun” obviously didn’t check, so they’re on the hook for something. They must be. We can debate the actor’s role in safety, but, in a perfect world, Baldwin would’ve simply checked for himself before doing anything with it.

I certainly would’ve.

PS - If this ever happens again, we are absolutely useless as a species. Ms. Hutchins’ legacy/place in history needs to be that of the last person ever shot and killed on a movie set. God knows we can’t control the real world, but a movie set? Come on.

[psmith2.0]

Facebook seems to have stepped in it a little.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 Facebook seems to have stepped in it a little.

Zuck needs to go, but given Facebook's corporate structure I'm not sure it's possible for anyone to force him out. At least in a "normal" public company, the board can boot out the CEO, but with Facebook's dual-class share structure, MZ has guaranteed control for life. Even if sells enough to fall below a majority of shares, the rights on his special share class give him more votes to make up for it, giving him the ability to out-vote the board for life.

[turtle]

Personally, I won't be upset is that whole company goes under completely. I don't just mean change their name(s), but go out of business. Not going to happen, but it would be nice.

[709]

The assistant director on the movie “Rust,” who handed a prop gun to Alec Baldwin before the fatal shooting last week, was previously fired from a film production after a gun incident injured a crew member, the movie’s production company told CNN. Dave Halls was serving as assistant director on the film “Freedom’s Path” in 2019, when a gun “unexpectedly discharged” on set, causing a sound crew member to recoil from the blast, halting production, the production company Rocket Soul Studios said Monday. The sound crew member was evaluated by an on-set medic and advised to seek medical treatment. The crew member returned to the production a few days later, Rocket Soul said. Following the incident, Halls was removed from the set and fired from the production, the company said. “Upon wrapping production for the day, Dave Halls was officially terminated and given the specific reasons for his termination,” The company continued. “Dave was very remorseful for the events, and understood the reasons he was being terminated. A new assistant director as well as a new armorer were hired for the duration of principal photography. Production of the film finished successfully.”

That guy is so screwed.

[turtle]

Wow. That is pretty damning. I mean, time has pasted but that guy clearly didn't learn his lesson.

[psmith2.0]

Re: Facebook...s it one man, or the entire company culture? If Gandhi or Richard Simmons ran the joint, would it really be that much different? Or is it the way it is, and does this things is does, because of Zuckerberg?

I'm not on the silly thing, or seriously follow its trials and tribulations in any serious way, so I don't know.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by psmith2.0 Re: Facebook...s it one man, or the entire company culture? If Gandhi or Richard Simmons ran the joint, would it really be that much different? Or is it the way it is, and does this things is does, because of Zuckerberg? I'm not on the silly thing, or seriously follow its trials and tribulations in any serious way, so I don't know.

I think he sets the tone for just not caring about the company's impact. He's the one who chooses to ignore the societal impact of (eg) the Groups feature in favor of higher growth. That creates a feedback loop where employees who disagree leave and he ends up with an army of product managers who share his views.

He's an overgrown trust fund kid who doesn't realize just how little he actually knows.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is odd how news sources edit the source material. This BBC article has the same damning details about the actions and attitude of assistant director, David Halls, but leaves out this statement:

Goll added: "This situation is not about Dave Halls... It's in no way one person's fault. It's a bigger conversation about safety on set and what we are trying to achieve with that culture."

The same person says this:

Maggie Goll, a prop maker and licensed pyrotechnician, told the Associated Press (AP) he disregarded safety protocols for weapons and pyrotechnics on the set of a TV show and tried to continue filming after the supervising pyrotechnician lost consciousness.

with "he" implying the same Dave Halls.

[kscherer]

What are the odds that this was an intentional act?

[Ryan]

Just sounds like they hired an unqualified fool who shouldn't be allowed to use a butter knife, much less a real firearm.

[psmith2.0]

Everyone there on your end okay, Ken?

Just saw this...

We have one large, main mall here in Chattanooga - Hamilton Place Mall. It was completed/opened in 1986, during my junior year in high school. Over the years it expanded, as well as the outlying perimeter stores/areas, to where it's just a huge retail zone (the mall itself, plus Target, Walmart, Best Buy, Home Depot, Lowes, Office Depot, Petco, Kohl's, Ross, Old Navy, Pier One, Barnes & Noble, REI, Guitar Center, Michaels, Hobby Lobby, Whole Foods, every restaurant you could name, every specialty type store, all the phone carriers, doctor/medical offices, banks, etc. Every town of any size has this type of area in it...some have more than one. But, in the past 6-8 years, it's all just become a shithole. Roving youth, mass shoplifting, fights, car break-ins, people punched/assaulted, gunfire has broken out on at least four occasions in the past 18 months, vandalism, etc. Big coordinated gatherings of troublemakers and "flash mob" type stuff (looting, theft, assault, etc.) where the number of shitheads drastically outweighs any employees, security or police presence, etc. Several times a year now, the big news locally is "approximately 45-55 youths were fighting at Hamilton Place and shots were exchanged". Used to be an awesome place to go, back in the day. The outlying stores seem to be okay, but the main mall itself is just slowly fading. So when I hear about this stuff happening at malls, all I think is "you mean, like what happens here too?"

[kscherer]

Yes. I was just getting ready to post about it.

Well, not everyone is okay. 2 people dead, five injured. One officer shot, one security guard dead, one very pissed off Ken!

The hell is the matter with these assholes?

The shooter is in custody, and I want someone to torture his ass until he gives up the why. I'll swing the bat! Guaranteed he's already lawyered up and waiting for his plea deal. Video cameras are everywhere, witnesses are everywhere, and there is enough evidence to go to trial tomorrow, but it will be years before anything happens. There is no justice.

A regular of ours had a buddy in the mall while it was happening and has video during the shooting, but nothing compelling, and photos of the security guard lying on the floor.

I was due to go to the mall after work to return something. That won't be happening for a few days.

If it were up to me, I would haul every one of these shooters out into the public square and hang them, leave their bodies hanging for a week, and then burn them. Every one of them. Drag their asses out of prison and string them up for all the world to see! No burial, no memorial, no grave.