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Outlawing the iPhone


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Outlawing the iPhone
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-07-05, 14:13

The EU is working hard to make the iPhone not the iPhone.

I'm reading down through this partial list and asking myself, "How in the hell is Apple supposed to differentiate itself from its Android competitors?"

The EU's requirements will require Apple to undergo hundreds of millions of dollars of software development just to make the OS more like Android and Windows.

I'm sure some of you will dance and whoop that Apple's work on the iPhone is about to be completely undermined, but what the EU is demanding is that Apple make the iPhone into Not iPhone™. I suspect advertising and data-collection companies are behind this move, since Apple has worked very hard to strip them of their privacy-robbing objectives, but all of that is about to go away. And, no, there will not be a "EU iOS" and a "everywhere else iOS". The crap that is coming out of this will force Apple to either abandon the EU altogether (billions of dollars left on the table) or strip the iPhone down to an expensive Android phone. I cannot see a path that does not leave the iPhone as anything other than Not iPhone™.

Here is a partial list of requirements in the interest of "fairness".

- Allow users to install apps from third-party app stores and sideload directly from the internet.
- Allow developers to offer third-party payment systems in apps and promote offers outside the gatekeeper's platforms.
- Allow developers to integrate their apps and digital services directly with those belonging to a gatekeeper. This includes making messaging, voice-calling, and video-calling services interoperable with third-party services upon request.
- Give developers access to any hardware feature, such as "near-field communication technology, secure elements and processors, authentication mechanisms, and the software used to control those technologies."
- Ensure that all apps are uninstallable and give users the ability to unsubscribe from core platform services under similar conditions to subscription.
- Give users the option to change the default voice assistant to a third-party option.
- Share data and metrics with developers and competitors, including marketing and advertising performance data.
- Set up an independent "compliance function" group to monitor its compliance with EU legislation with an independent senior manager and sufficient authority, resources, and access to management.
- Inform the European Commission of their mergers and acquisitions.

The DMA also seeks to ensure that gatekeepers can no longer:

- Pre-install certain software applications and require users to use any important default software services such as web browsers.
- Require app developers to use certain services or frameworks, including browser engines, payment systems, and identity providers, to be listed in app stores.
- Give their own their own products, apps, or services preferential treatment or rank them higher than those of others.
- Reuse private data collected during a service for the purposes of another service.
- Establish unfair conditions for business users.

Welcome to the EU, where "we cannot compete, so we outlawed competition" is the new model of business strategy. I wish this strategy wouldn't have any far-reaching effects, but it will. It really sucks when over-reaching, serve-the-corporation government tactics lead to the destruction of a great product.

Basically, developers get access to all of your secure, private information, and you are helpless to stop them. For ever, Apple's customers have been the people that buy their products. With the EU's new rules, Apple is being forced to make developers the top priority, to do so for free, to hand over sensitive information, and to make their actual customers a commodity to be sold.

Were I Apple — and were I not beholden to the shareholders — I would abandon the EU market just to make a point. But, that won't happen. Apple is a publicly traded, for-profit corporation whose primary product is about to change radically, and not for the better.

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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2022-07-05, 15:56

I see an April Fool's joke all over this and yet not shocked at all. Socialism is strong with the EU so pushing for this is par for the course. More government. I'm actually mildly surprised they don't write and approve their own OS forcing all phones to be able to run it. Makes government tracking and monitoring easier too.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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PB PM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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2022-07-05, 19:57

Fear mongering at it's best.

Just because it has to allow all that stuff, doesn't mean you cannot stay in Apple's walled garden if you so choose.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2022-07-05, 20:06

But why should it be forced on any provider of a service/device? You don't like the way they do business, buy something else. There is zero reason to force Apple to change how they do business.

Those companies that don't like how they cut is sliced can stop offering services/apps on iOS. It is that easy.

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a notion of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
MineCraft? mc.applenova.com | Visit us! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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PB PM
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2022-07-05, 20:44

And nobody is forcing you to move to the EU, it is that easy.
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chucker
 
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2022-07-06, 04:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
Fear mongering at it's best.

Just because it has to allow all that stuff, doesn't mean you cannot stay in Apple's walled garden if you so choose.
It really isn't that simple, though? Unless there's a mandate that apps always also have to be in Apple's App Store, schools and companies will increasingly put their apps in stores that aren't as privacy-friendly.

Security mechanisms, whether you consider them theatrical or effective, will be weakened.

Etc.

This will affect anyone, and therefore ironically add choices but also take choices away.
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PB PM
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2022-07-06, 07:24

The question is, how many developers would actually use third party app stores? And how many users would end up using them, a small percentage most likely. The Google play store is still the biggest and most well used store on Android.

It’s not like no comprised apps ever get though Apple’s vetting process. They wipe out hundreds/thousands of apps every year that did make it though, after it’s discovered they are compromised. The idea that the current App Store is ‘safe’ is almost laughable anyway.
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Elysium
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2022-07-06, 08:17

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
It really isn't that simple, though? Unless there's a mandate that apps always also have to be in Apple's App Store, schools and companies will increasingly put their apps in stores that aren't as privacy-friendly.

Security mechanisms, whether you consider them theatrical or effective, will be weakened.

Etc.

This will affect anyone, and therefore ironically add choices but also take choices away.
This. Requiring Apple to open up any core function to a third party on request weakens the walled guardian approach for everyone.

Side load all you want, but Apple should be able to sandbox it to protect all their users.

Formerly known as cynical_rock
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2022-07-06, 08:23

Some parts I am for, others I am not.

The third party app stores and side loading? Ok as stated, if you don't want to use a third party app store or side load apps, don't have to.

Forcing Apple to allow access to the secure enclave of the SoC, NFC, etc? Forcing iMessage to work on Android? Forcing Apple to provide user data to others? That part I am against.

giggity
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chucker
 
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2022-07-06, 08:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
Forcing Apple to allow access to the secure enclave of the SoC, NFC, etc?
The NFC part is interesting because their argument is probably that Apple has inserted itself as the rent-seeker for payment NFC access, whereas Apple would argue that users by and large don't like it when third parties get direct access to your NFC payment data.
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Quagmire
meh
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2022-07-06, 09:35

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucker View Post
The NFC part is interesting because their argument is probably that Apple has inserted itself as the rent-seeker for payment NFC access, whereas Apple would argue that users by and large don't like it when third parties get direct access to your NFC payment data.
Yep.

While the surface sell the EU will put out ( along with the USB-C mandate) is all this reduces the barriers of switching between iOS/Android, I am always skeptical of the background dealings between lobby groups and the politicians( sort of like the whole Epic legal battle). While all of this is meant publicly benefit the consumer, I feel like this will largely benefit companies more.

giggity
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
 
2022-07-06, 11:27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagmire View Post
While all of this is meant publicly benefit the consumer, I feel like this will largely benefit companies more.
Exactly. This is not a situation being driven by consumer demand. It is being driven by corporations demanding access to the incredibly valuable consumer data that is stored on iPhones. The EU is framing this as "choice" and "privacy", where in reality the exact opposite is being mandated.

Access to the Secure Enclave? Why does any developer need that? There's an API to build into your app. They do not need the biometric data, other than to sell it. European companies lost their ability to compete in the cellphone space, so they are lobbying the EU government to grant them access to the IP of foreign companies and the private data of those company's customers, so that they have something to sell. All of these things are going to lead to increased fraud, reduced privacy, and an actual rise in app costs, not a reduction.

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chucker
 
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2022-07-06, 12:36

Will the EU mandate third-party access to Lockdown Mode? https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2022/...enary-spyware/

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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2022-07-06, 13:29

Funny. I was going to post about that, but held off.

I suspect that the EU laws will require Apple to provide workarounds. The law is so vague and so all-inclusive that I don't think anything Apple does to differentiate itself will be permitted. My suspicion is that the EU is moving toward mandating a single OS platform (likely Android) — and sooner rather than later — to "simplify" the user experience open the cellphone space entirely to EU business models so they can compete outside of their own merits.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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PB PM
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2022-07-06, 14:41

Other than Nokia, which is foreign owned anyway, are the any phone makers in the EU?

Sounds like beating a dead horse if protecting them is the goal.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2022-07-06, 15:19

It's not about the hardware.
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PB PM
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2022-07-07, 17:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by kscherer View Post
It's not about the hardware.
So you are suggesting this entire EU bill is simply to allow mobile phone companies to force their own software/ad/tracking network on users? As if they aren't doing this already for customers who buy phones through the carrier? Because they are. While I don't doubt they want to do that, do you really think they have that much sway with EU regulators? I know next to nothing about EU mobile phone carriers, or how many there even are, so I don't know how big and powerful they are outside of any given country.

To me the solution is simple, get the phone directly from the manufacture unlocked, rather than from the carrier. I already do this, for the freedom it provides.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2022-07-07, 18:15

I don't think it has anything at all to do with the carriers. It has to do with advertising companies and data collection companies. They want the user data, location data, contacts, web history, etc. And I do not think they care who makes the phone, just what software is running on that phone and what data can be gleaned from it. Any attempt by the manufacturer or the carrier to limit what data can be collected is being subverted with this legislation.

At the end of the day, the EU is telling its citizens that they have no right to privacy, and any attempt to secure that right will be legislated away.

- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :)
- Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9)
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PB PM
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2022-07-07, 18:25

Privacy is an issue of course, and some of what is in the bill is an issue.

Of course the real solution is simple, if you don't want people to know things about you, don't use the internet. If you use it, there is no escape. What we really need is international regulations on what ad/data mining companies can collect about people, but nobody wants to deal with that problem, or so it seems. We passed laws in that regard in Canada, but I doubt it's been very successful. Most of the companies that got caught were from other nations, and just laughed it off before switching all their services to out of country servers, and continued to do breach Canadian privacy laws.
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chucker
 
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2022-07-08, 00:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB PM View Post
What we really need is international regulations on what ad/data mining companies can collect about people,
We had those! In the EU!! And now the EU is undermining them. Ugh.
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kscherer
The Ban Hammer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
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2022-07-08, 10:42

I would bet all of my nickels that the advertising and data-collection companies are bribing politicians to get this done. Follow the money, folks.
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