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CNN/Money article about using neighbor's WiFi


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CNN/Money article about using neighbor's WiFi
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Kickaha
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2005-08-11, 23:54

Like I said, I lock mine down.

OTOH, my neighbor's WiFi constantly causes my signal to drop significantly when they turn it on. It's some Linksys model, and it is just insane. In their case, it's like they're blaring their stereo and the sound is bleeding over onto my property... and they're playing N*Sync.

We could debate this all week, but simply put, I don't believe that consuming someone else's bandwidth and leeching off of their paid service without compensation is right. (Of course, I think anyone that leaves their WiFi open is an idiot, and people like my neighbors should be shot. Thank god they're moving.)
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DMBand0026
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Chicago
 
2005-08-12, 02:05

I have to get a new router soon. Mine will no longer allow connections with any kind of wireless security on. I can still use MAC address filtering, but as far as everything else goes, it's down the crapper.

Come waste your time with me
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jsk173
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-08-12, 02:08

Kickaha: I quoted your comment but wasn't talking specifically about you. From your initial post, I couldn't tell if you believed using non-protected WiFi was theft or not but your follow-up makes it clear you do. We can certainly agree to disagree; I just don't see how using non-protected WiFi could ever rise to the level of theft/crime, at least not in an urban/residential setting where a user, sitting in his own home, often can't tell if it's a neighbor's WiFi or a free public hotspot.

As Brad said, all analogies have their flaws, but to me unprotected WiFi is no different than a radio or satellite TV signal -- if it's coming into my house, and it's not somehow encrypted or blocked, then I have a clear right to use it. (Again, I don't leech off my neighbor's WiFi; it's more of an academic argument.)
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sunrain
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Portlandia
 
2005-08-12, 02:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Like I said, I lock mine down.

OTOH, my neighbor's WiFi constantly causes my signal to drop significantly when they turn it on. It's some Linksys model, and it is just insane. In their case, it's like they're blaring their stereo and the sound is bleeding over onto my property... and they're playing N*Sync.

We could debate this all week, but simply put, I don't believe that consuming someone else's bandwidth and leeching off of their paid service without compensation is right. (Of course, I think anyone that leaves their WiFi open is an idiot, and people like my neighbors should be shot. Thank god they're moving.)
You might try monitoring their broadcast and find out what channel they're using on their device. I believe that channels 1, 7, and 11 are supposed to be free of interference from each other. I ran into this problem with a neighbor the floor above me and I was able to move from 50% to 90% signal strength.

"What a computer is to me is it's the most remarkable tool that we've ever come up with, and it's the equivalent of a bicycle for our minds."
- Steve Jobs
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Kickaha
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2005-08-12, 10:04

Tried that, sun. :/ Poking around on the intraweb, I found that there are a couple of Linksys WiFi units that don't play well with the other children, and I suspect they have one.

jsk173: In my mind there's a difference between some poor sap leaving their WiFi open because they don't know any better, and someone who leaves it open for public consumption and resource trading. Generally the latter is advertised with a descriptive name, while the former is stuck on 'default'. :} I'm all for WiFi community creation, I think it's a fantastic idea... but it's a voluntary and conscious decision to leave the WAP open, as opposed to an accidental security hole. I try not to take advantage of the naive *too* often, you know?

Last edited by Kickaha : 2005-08-12 at 10:22.
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torifile
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Join Date: May 2004
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2005-08-12, 10:21

I'd secure mine, but I can't get my wife's PC to get on the network when I do that. It's ridiculous but I can't for the life of me figure it out.

If it's not red and showing substantial musculature, you're wearing it wrong.
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thegelding
feeling my oats
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: there are nice people here...that makes me happy
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2005-08-12, 11:06

eh...i have a password on mine...but...

when i was visiting my inlaws in florida and had my iBook with me...and they had just moved in and didn't have cable or internet yet...i did find that by going into their garage i got a neighbors signal and checked my email a few times...

not quite sure how i feel about it...not like stealing a bike from the neighbors yard...but not quite like getting a TV signal sent to your home on purpose...

seems to be a fairly victimless crime...except if everyone does it then we have no cable or wireless access at all...i pay for mine...it ain't cheap...what they should have is wireless everywhere, you pay your monthly bill and can get assess anywhere in the city....

g

crazy is not a rare human condition

everything is food if you chew hard enough
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2005-08-12, 11:25

I use WEP on my Linksys too. At least I was able to use 128bit. I would use WAP but my Palm Tungsten C doesn't support WAP. I live in an apartment building where from my deck I can pick up no less than 8 hot spots including mine. The good part is most of them now encrypt too, but I think three of them are still wide open. I have accessed one of the networks for a test with my network. The big issue for us is everyone using the was channel. 6 and 11 are saturated in my building!

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
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jsk173
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-08-12, 18:31

Kickaha: I see your point, I just look at it as more of a moral issue than a legal issue and I believe the owner of any given WiFi network has full responsibility for his/her set-up, regardless of his/her level of technical expertise.

As I've said before, I don't -- and wouldn't -- leech off my neighbors' WiFi, but I did end up on a neighbor's WiFi a few times last year after moving into a new building in an area that has a public hotspot. Unbeknownst to me, however, the public hotspot was down for a week for tech work, leaving me on my neighbors' WiFi. The idea I could be criminally charged for selecting the wrong open WiFi connection, while sitting in my living room, seems patently absurd to me.
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2005-08-13, 09:21

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsk173
...The idea I could be criminally charged for selecting the wrong open WiFi connection, while sitting in my living room, seems patently absurd to me.
I do totally agree with you on this one. If you're going to use the technology then you need to use the right security. The FCC has a rule that you may listen to ANY freq over the air. In VA they have banned RADAR detectors, though you have the right to listen to that freq. If you have a neighbor with a open hotspot then to me the FCC has said it clear, you have the right to access it. I must also point out the basis of this story comes from Communist Negative Network. They are well known for never using scare tactics or trying to stir up their veiws on everything, right?

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.
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intlplby
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
 
2005-08-13, 10:28

listening and transmitting are two different things, but regardless.... the wireless spectrum is unregulated anyways.....

the point is not so much the access to the network, but the usage of the resources through that network....

if someone leaves their network open i see it as an open invitation to looking around..... it's like an unlocked building.... making the network broadcast its name is like a big "welcome" sign.....

the difference is that once you are in and looking around is it ok to use their bandwidth too......

i think of it as if your neighbor left their front door open.... yeah you can go in and look around, but once you start eating the food from their fridge then you can call it stealing and that is like using their bandwidth...

if you eat their leftovers and scraps most people don't care, but if you start eating all their food they might prosecute....

i think if someone leaves their network open, it should be legal to go on it... i think if you are using their bandwidth you should make a reasonable effort to let the person know.....

heck, if you know their network is open, you could probably tell them and close it for them in exchange for them letting you log on to it to check email and browse the internet as long as you don't use all their bandwidth. "howdy neighbor, i'll close your front door for you if you let me eat your leftovers"
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DMBand0026
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Chicago
 
2005-08-13, 11:42

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsk173
The idea I could be criminally charged for selecting the wrong open WiFi connection, while sitting in my living room, seems patently absurd to me.
I agree. I think however that it's one thing if it's in your home and another thing if you go out looking for it. Sitting in my parent's kitchen I have access to three networks, one from the next door neighbor, one from across the street, and my parent's network as well. Due to the fact that I have a network available from my parents when I walk into their house, I don't have to use the other two that I have (unencrypted) access to. However, they weren't smart enough to protect it, it's in my parent's home. I'm kind of getting a little fuzzy on the legalities involved there.

However, if you drive down the street with a modified pringles can seeking out networks, even if it's for a legal use at that point, I think you're in the wrong.

Come waste your time with me
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Brad
Selfish Heathen
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Zone of Pain
 
2005-08-13, 15:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle2472
I use WEP on my Linksys too. At least I was able to use 128bit. I would use WAP but my Palm Tungsten C doesn't support WAP.
Just a reminder to security newbies: there is no WAP (at least, not an encryption protocol). Here are the definitions of the WEP and WPA acronyms

WEP = Wired Equivalent Privacy
WPA = Wi-Fi Protected Access

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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2005-08-13, 15:38

Do you know if there's any way of seeing if anyone other than myself is using my Airport Express?

WAP could mean Wireless Access Point, but I try not to use it as it's a bit confusing with WPA.
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Franz Josef
Passing by
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London, Europe
 
2005-08-13, 15:40

Use the Apple Airport management apps from their website - wait a minute, will post a link.

Edit: http://www.apple.com/support/airport/ - under additional resources on RHS, bottom of the list "Airport Management Tools". The Airport Management Utility will tell you the MAC no.s of the Macs accessing the Airport Express.

Last edited by Franz Josef : 2005-08-13 at 15:48.
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Bryson
Rocket Surgeon
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
 
2005-08-13, 16:53

Thanks for that. Using it now. (Actually, in playing I ended up borking the system, but them's the breaks, I guess. Fixed it now...)
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turtle
Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
 
2005-08-13, 17:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad
Just a reminder to security newbies: there is no WAP (at least, not an encryption protocol). Here are the definitions of the WEP and WPA acronyms

WEP = Wired Equivalent Privacy
WPA = Wi-Fi Protected Access
Thanks Brad, I meant WPA...Not sure what I was thinking when I typed it.

I am still a security newB though. I did actually turn on my MAC filters for my router since I'm using WEP. I was surprised at how many addresses I needed to add. This should prevent someone from hacking in even with the lower grade WEP in use right???

Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.”
Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it.

Last edited by turtle : 2005-08-13 at 17:51.
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drewprops
Space Pirate
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Atlanta
 
2005-08-13, 18:25

Can one of you guys point to a good intermediate skill-level article about WPA? I'm curious about it because I came home one day to find my Airport flashing like a bad German disco. I finally re-booted everything from scratch and implemented the WEP but would like to be smarter.

AND a little story....

Back about three or four years ago there was a show filming here in Atlanta called 'The Fighting Temptations'. I did some basic IT stuff for the production office and noticed that they'd discovered a wireless network in the area that was faster than their own individual dialup accounts and naturally they began using that network because they were flinging music files back and forth with the west coast and with their studio engineers. When I heard that they were using an unknown party's network I told them to STOP because they had no idea whose equipment they were passing through. It could've been a harmless connection or it could've belonged to some kind of paparazzi scum. It was scary to see that kind of ignorance at fairly high levels, but it wasn't surprising.

So if there are any recommended reading sources about WPA out there let us know. Otherwise we can all google it up on our own~~

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Franz Josef
Passing by
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London, Europe
 
2005-08-13, 18:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtle2472
I did actually turn on my MAC filters for my router since I'm using WEP. I was surprised at how many addresses I needed to add. This should prevent someone from hacking in even with the lower grade WEP in use right???
There are 2 distinct security issues here. Using encryption (preferably WPA but WEP too to a lesser degree) prevents others listening in on your mail / web surfing etc ie without encryption they can intercept your details.

MAC filtering addresses a second issue - namely that someone can use your bandwith without your permission.

So yes, MAC filtering prevents someone else hacking in to leech your bandwidth but does not, in itself, make the wireless connection between your Mac and your wireless router secure.
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Franz Josef
Passing by
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: London, Europe
 
2005-08-13, 18:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by drewprops
So if there are any recommended reading sources about WPA out there let us know. Otherwise we can all google it up on our own~~
Doesn't deal specifically with WPA algorithms but I found it useful.

http://www.flexbeta.net/main/article...=1&pagenum= 1
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onlyafterdark
Sucker for shiny objects
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Kitchener, ON
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2005-08-13, 21:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz Josef
Use the Apple Airport management apps from their website - wait a minute, will post a link.

Edit: http://www.apple.com/support/airport/ - under additional resources on RHS, bottom of the list "Airport Management Tools". The Airport Management Utility will tell you the MAC no.s of the Macs accessing the Airport Express.
Thanks a lot for that Franz. I was meaning to look for this kind of software a while ago but forgot about it.

I should have known that Apple would have software for this kind of thing.

Time to play.
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jsk173
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
 
2005-08-16, 23:16

CNN posted a follow-up story today:

http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/12/tech...mail/index.htm
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Mugge
Thunderbolt, fuck yeah!
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Denmark
 
2005-08-24, 11:41

I personally also use the ability in the Airport extreme to reduce signal strength. I live a place where there aren't any other networks that can interfere, so I'm running at a quiet 25%. The signals travel nicely though my small house, but not outside the outer walls.

I picked up this strategy from my time in the army. It's common sense to reduce your electronic signature in order to avoid detection. And the real choke-point is anyways still your broadband connection.

EDIT:
Of course I also use WPA and MAC filtering.

Last edited by Mugge : 2005-08-24 at 11:42.
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