[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by dfiler True, it does cache much of the data in a couple files. Heck, one is even binary. However, almost all of the data is also stored and sometimes accessed directly from the files themselves. Other data is parsed from an xml file. Then there is the music itself. In a database based implentation access to this data wouldn't be through the relatively high cost route of file system access. Its a gray line, but I wouldn't put its implementation in the "database" category. iTunes resembles a database because of the tabular data display. But the implementation is far from a database in my opinion.

Album art actually got moved *outside* of song files, and into your "Album Artwork" folder. For any given album, you have 10 or 12 songs that all have the same artwork. Why duplicate that artwork in 12 files when you can just reference it once in another file? In fact, the music files themselves no longer reference the artwork; the only connection is the reference kept in iTunes' database.

Also, iTunes absolutely is a database. The "iTunes Music Library" file is a binary database which is designed to be fast. The "iTunes Music Library.xml" file is a less-often-updated version of the binary database intended solely to allow other applications access to all the data iTunes hordes. You can delete that file and iTunes doesn't care. It is, however, very useful for scripts and platform-independent library backups.

To qualify this, iTunes does re-parse metadata from individual songs, but only when they're accessed/edited. To verify this, re-tag some of your songs outside of iTunes, and you'll note that iTunes does not see the change until you play (or edit) the song. This is the most efficient way to keep file metadata and iTunes' library database in sync. Otherwise, iTunes would bring your system to a crawl as it reads data from *thousands* of files every time it loads.

Definitely a database. But most of the metadata is also duplicated in the files, but on first load, the binary database takes precedence.

[dfiler]

With data moved back into song files, i'd agree that it resembles more of a database.

I guess, working as a database programmer, i have a more anal definition of what falls into the database category. This isn't to say that others are wrong. The term really isn't cut and dry.

How the topic originally came up was in conjunction with a complaint about performance. For one thing, every time a song is edited or played, the file system must be accessed. This imposes a faily high overhead. When transactions must go all the way to the file system, instead of through a heavily optimized and lightweight API, a database level of performance is not attained.

But with album art moved out of the song files and into a single binary file, at least browsing and scrolling doesn't hit the file system anymore. I suppose this disk cache will be considered a database by some. But does this make any program, with binary data files, a database program?

Edit: I acknowledge I never should have quibbled with using the term "database" since even industry experts can't agree on what that entails. Instead, I should have talked directly about the performance influencing differences between iTunes and a pure database. I wouldn't characterize iTunes as slow, but where it does occasionally lag, it is because iTunes isn't a pure database.

[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by dfiler But with album art moved out of the song files and into a single binary file, at least browsing and scrolling doesn't hit the file system anymore. I suppose this disk cache will be considered a database by some. But does this make any program, with binary data files, a database program?

I believe they're stored individually (Album Artwork is a folder). However, the names are cryptic and are very clearly tied to some sort of hash in iTunes' database.

And no, it doesn't make all binary files databases. iTunes' storage is like a database because it's a file used to store thousands of records all of which have the same fields. Sounds kinda like a database table to me.

Originally Posted by dfiler Edit: I acknowledge I never should have quibbled with using the term "database" since even industry experts can't agree on what that entails.

Well, it's certainly not a Relational database as you would see in environments where performance is critical. It's using a database in the same sense that SQLite files are databases---they're lightweight storage engines to quickly access a large collection of single-purpose structured data. What iTunes does is somewhere between a database and a cache.

[InactionMan]

I like the iTunes Server and improved tagging ideas. Tagging movies and tv shows that you've imported yourself is horrible right now.

A few things I'd like but doubt we'll ever see:
-Have something like Handbrake integrated into iTunes. I know given the U.S. stance on DVD ripping it'll never happen.
-Bring back the sharing from iTunes 4. I know it was abused and had to be removed but if they tied it to your iTunes account it wouldn't be abused unless people are willing to let complete strangers have unfettered access to their iTunes account.

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by ShadowOfGed I believe they're stored individually (Album Artwork is a folder). However, the names are cryptic and are very clearly tied to some sort of hash in iTunes' database.[/b]That's what I get for posting from work (without iTunes).

Hmmm, so album artwork isn't in the binary cache? No wonder it is slow for some people. If album art is stored in seperate files, that part of the the app is not database-esque.

And no, it doesn't make all binary files databases. iTunes' storage is like a database because it's a file used to store thousands of records all of which have the same fields. Sounds kinda like a database table to me.

Again, maybe I'm being anal, but there is more to being a database then having tabular represented data and caching a portion of that in a binary file. By that loose definition, all excel files are databases as well. Mail.app would also be a database under that definition. But again, email is now stored as separate files. Hell, any app that serializes and stores data from NSTableView would be a database under that definition.

... What iTunes does is somewhere between a database and a cache.

With that I'll agree.

In a futile attempt to get back on topic...

Howabout ODBC access to the iTunes library in iTunes 8?

[ShadowOfGed]

Originally Posted by dfiler Howabout ODBC access to the iTunes library in iTunes 8?

That's why they put the XML Property List version of the library there---so we can all suffer through the insanity that is XML Property Lists to access the data so we can utilize it ourselves.

[Buffalo]

I'd really like to see the ability to include multiple artists. If I have a song with just Jay-Z and then a song with Jay-Z and Beyonce, and I put "Jay-Z feat. Beyonce" in the artist section, it won't show up when I click on Jay-z under artists. I want to be able to add both names separately and for that song to show up when I click Jay-Z and when I click Beyonce.

Second, I want Apple to include a wireless browsing features for iPhones and iPods. File sharing is a huge part of Leopard, and can be incorporated into iTunes (or whatever the new release will be called) so that iPhone and 6G iPod owners can browse their entire music library on the go. Edge would suck for that sort of thing, but Wi-fi could totally pull it off. It'll be even sweeter when the iPhone goes 3G (which is rumored to be soon, though I find that hard to believe).

Third, I would like a better way to get the album artwork for songs. Often, iTunes will put the wrong album artwork into a song when you download the artwork from the ITS. Why not allow the user to select exactly which album artwork is attached to the song before they download it?

Fourth, and this is probably pushing it, is music recognition. I've seen ads where someone can hold their phone up to a song and the phone will search a database of songs for the song they heard. That would be hella cool, I think.

[kieran]

Originally Posted by Buffalo I'd really like to see the ability to include multiple artists. If I have a song with just Jay-Z and then a song with Jay-Z and Beyonce, and I put "Jay-Z feat. Beyonce" in the artist section, it won't show up when I click on Jay-z under artists. I want to be able to add both names separately and for that song to show up when I click Jay-Z and when I click Beyonce.

That is actually someting that i think would be awesome if they actually put it in. I have so many songs in which I've had to take out an artist so I don't have so many different artists files.

[Buffalo]

One more idea: a full-screen effect for your movies that is like the one SJ showed off Core Animation with at the WWDC. There could be Cover Flow for music, which uses only album artwork, and then there could be the movie version of that, resembling the wall of movies on Apple TV, all playing at the same time (using Core Animation), and easily searchable.

[Mac+]

Buffalo and kieran23kk - have you tried playing with the Artist and Album Artist fields? I believe this was designed to address part of your issue.

[kieran]

No, I havent tried that out, but thanks for that tip. I have seen those before, but I never really knew what those fields were for. I'll see if that would solve the "problem." Really just an inconvience for me.

[bassplayinMacFiend]

I want #4 in the original post the most. Actually I was going to post this idea. Glad I read the original post first.

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by Mac+ Buffalo and kieran23kk - have you tried playing with the Artist and Album Artist fields? I believe this was designed to address part of your issue.

That was the intention...

I suspect that someone at apple recognized problem and came up with a solution. However, that solution hasn't been fully implemented. Perhaps the people tasked with the fix didn't truly understand what they were supposed to be doing.

For browsing in iTunes and on the iPod, Album Artist should take precedence over Artist. Meaning, if a song has an Album Artist specified, that value should be used for sorting and grouping while browsing. Otherwise, the value for Artist would be used as usual.

Boom! iTunes becomes way better.

[Bryson]

iTunes 8 will add support for:
Word files.
Excel files.
RTF files.
All images files.
All other document files.
All system files.

It will then copy all of your files, of any kind into a folder marked "music" and then arrange them however it damn likes. All files outside the Music folder will be deleted (7-pass zeroing) by iTunes on startup.

Once in iTunes, you'll easily be able to access your files by arranging by artist, clicking the bottom left hand corner of the screen 12 times, turning round twice and throwing an orangepeel over your left shoulder. It will then display your word file in a ludicrously small window in the bottom lefthand corner of the app. By the time they release iTune 8.5, it will have finally won the battle for dominance over Mac OS X and will turn your Mac into a giant iPod.

[rasmits]

Originally Posted by Bryson iTunes 8 will add support for: Word files. Excel files. RTF files. All images files. All other document files. All system files. It will then copy all of your files, of any kind into a folder marked "music" and then arrange them however it damn likes. All files outside the Music folder will be deleted (7-pass zeroing) by iTunes on startup. Once in iTunes, you'll easily be able to access your files by arranging by artist, clicking the bottom left hand corner of the screen 12 times, turning round twice and throwing an orangepeel over your left shoulder. It will then display your word file in a ludicrously small window in the bottom lefthand corner of the app. By the time they release iTune 8.5, it will have finally won the battle for dominance over Mac OS X and will turn your Mac into a giant iPod.

Only in a perfect world, I'm afraid...

[Paranoid666au]

Well I supose the iMac is half a giant iPod...

[DK-Lach]

Originally Posted by hmurchison 6. Fix the damn radio feature- Why Apple hasn't created iTunes radio is beyond me or perhaps technology. Internet Radio(IR) needs to be looked at as a new medium. We need to generate a way to marry the quality of radio (diverse playlist, DJ etc) with the power of computing. There's no reason why I shouldn't have IR with embedded metadata that links me to iTunes tracks, podcasts or films. This is a revenue potential for Apple or anyone who can Enterprise. If I hear a song on IR in iTunes I should be able to click a button and go to that song on iTunes for purchase or subscribe to the podcast. The computer is NOT a Typewriter folks!!

This function is already available on Media Player. In Denmark the national radios media player-based web-radio offers links to various wma-music-stores for the currently playing tracks.

[intlplby]

FLAC support.... that's all i want, fer crissakes

[apple007]

I haven't read the whole thread but I'd like a "Sort Year" option in the Sorting pane for situations where a song from 1985 gets released on a "Best of" album in 2007 and then gets sorted as a 2007 song for smart playlist purposes.

I'd also like Apple to add a Library section (along with Music, TV Shows, Movies, Podcasts) in which I can dump non-music audio files such as speeches, movie quotes, etc. Right now, such files end up mixed in with music files and can interrupt otherwise good playlists.

[PB PM]

I don't see how they wreak good playlists, if you don't want non-music files in a playlist, don't put them in there, or use the don't include feature in Smart playlists. You can add so many options to smart playlists I'm not sure how you can run into the trouble of speeches in a playlist.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by PB PM I don't see how they wreak good playlists, if you don't want non-music files in a playlist, don't put them in there, or use the don't include feature in Smart playlists. You can add so many options to smart playlists I'm not sure how you can run into the trouble of speeches in a playlist.

You can keep them out of smart playlists but you can't really keep them out of your main Music library. Apple/iTunes has done a great job in allowing users to properly sort music, TV shows, movies and podcasts; providing a section for non-music audio makes just as much sense.

[PB PM]

Okay, but if you are listening to playlists, why does it matter if they are in the main library? You can always recode your audio files to podcasts, through Garageband I believe.

[apple007]

Originally Posted by PB PM Okay, but if you are listening to playlists, why does it matter if they are in the main library? You can always recode your audio files to podcasts, through Garageband I believe.

For the same reason I don't want random TV shows or movies in my music library: they're not music.

I'm not asking for a wholesale revamping of iTunes. I'd just like them to add a section/category for sorting non-music files.

[Moogs]

Transmogrifier Rays that shoot out of the EyeSight camera. A better question is what does it functionally lack, given the ecosystem of products it supports, to which the answer is "pretty much nothing". iTunes is at the point where it's nearly perfect and should only be tweaked by improving features here or there and fixing bugs, rather than glomming new bells and whistles onto it.

[Buffalo]

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/08/14/tuaw-...to-08-library/

If Apple did it with iPhoto, why not iTunes? I think it's an awesome idea!

[mooty]

I am hoping that they will add functionality to import "Events" from iPhoto 08 to your iPod.

[thegeriatric]

Originally Posted by apple007 For the same reason I don't want random TV shows or movies in my music library: they're not music. I'm not asking for a wholesale revamping of iTunes. I'd just like them to add a section/category for sorting non-music files.

Yes Yes Yes.

[evan]

some sort of easy way to share music on a network or transfer your music/movies/tv shows to/from an external hard drive really easily. (maybe set it up so your laptop would "sync" selected playlists etc. from the hard drive which is the primary source? - idea just came to me and I think it could actually be a good one... but until I think some more... or sleep on it.... it stays in the parenthesis)

[InactionMan]

Apple needs to move beyond album art and start including the full liner notes for albums. And not just for shit you but at the iTunes Store.

[BuonRotto]

Scrubbing.