[nickgall2nd]

The announcement of the iTV without the announcement of an updated Mac desktop with CableCARD tuner is very disappointing.

As most probably know, Microsoft is all set up to take over the living room now without competition.

The XBox 360 as well as dedicated hardware boxes can be purchased with "Media Center Extendor" functionality, which is much like the iTV that apple announced today.

But where Microsoft has the advantage is that Windows Vista Media Center PCs will include CableCARD support and will be the first widely affordable HD-DVR solution (TiVo Series 3 is a joke at $800).

If Apple can't deliver CableCARD functionality to their PC's, or make the iTV compatible with Vista Media Center PCs, then do they have any chance of success in the new tech-fight over the TV?

Any potential iTV purchaser would have to defer to the superiority of the XBox 360... no?

Apple must understand this and thus leads me to one inescapable conclusion: Apple would not go to all the trouble of developing iTV unless they have something under their sleeves:

Either
(a) They will release software for Vista CableCARD pcs that allows compatibility
or more likely
(b) They will soon announce an Apple Desktop with CableCARD support built in...

thoughts?

[Ebby]

Wait a second. Apple stopped including TV tuners of any kind a long time ago. If you want TV connectivity, head over to ElGato or some company that makes (or probably will) that kind of stuff for Mac. That is where I think you will eventually get your fix.

[aranhamo]

I had never even heard of CableCARD until your post. A quick check at various articles on the web reveals that most consumers have never heard of it. A lot of cable companies don't support it yet (including mine), and there is even less support for it outside the US. CableCARD 2.0 has no firm date for delivery, and CableCARD 1.0 apparently sucks. And most TV manufacturers have dropped support for it in their 2006 models pending the release of 2.0. Cable companies are not even required to offer CableCard until late next year, and CableCARD is not expected to be widespread for several years after that.

So having just heard of CableCARD today and doing some reading about it on the net, I'm concluding that CableCARD support is not especially urgent.

[Mugge]

Or how about this little baby:

http://www.miglia.com/products/video...Pro/index.html

If that iTV thing is going to be as easy to use as the Airport Express, then it's Microsoft & Co. who are going to be in trouble.

:P

[Kickaha]

If you have a PC with CableCARD, presumably it needs to be where the cable comes out of the wall. If that's the case, then why do you need an iTV at all?

iTV is for getting *computer* content to the TV. If it supported getting *broadcast* content to the TV, then that undercuts Apple's business model. I suspect that you *might* see a connection/agreement between Apple and Tivo to allow the iTV to play Tivo'd files, but I don't ever see Apple putting in CableCARD support. (This includes cable-company supplied Tivo units - it would be a software update pushed to the boxes to allow sharing to the iTV.)

Or, of course, you could go with the MCE. And Windows. And fans. And a big ugly box. And, and, and... ... and I'm not seeing where the Xbox 360 is superior here. Does it have a wireless connection to the computer in the den?

[nickgall2nd]

Hrm...

I wasn't aware that Apple has a no-Tuner policy and that definitely makes me question my Mac desktop prediction... but I am still convinced that Apple would not have created this without having some plan for getting HDTV content onto it.

CableCARD has thus far had slow adoption, but it is very worthwhile technology that is long overdue.

Remember when you would plug the cable into the TV and then use the TV to tune channels? Nowadays most cable channels are digital and/or scrambled so you need a cablebox.

But with CableCARD any device with a DTV tuner can tune even scrambled channels. Microsoft Media Center PCs will have CableCARD slots, allowing DVR functionality of all cable channels and will allow Media Center Extenders to stream and access this functionality.

If you have digital cable in your area, your cable provider probably has CableCARD available. In fact I think they are legally mandated to.

Interestingly, I just found this article which reports a rumor that MacMini will be the desktop to get the CableCARD. I think this is highly likely in the wake of iTV announcement.

http://www.uneasysilence.com/archive/2006/08/7467/

The point would be to provide mainstream HD-DVR functionality. TiVo series 3 is $800 with a monthly fee. If Apple could pull it off in the iTV in addition to its other media functions, it would be a strong competitor to both WMCE and TiVo.

edit: and yes, the xbox 360 does have a wireless attachment, but its extra and pricey.

[aranhamo]

I have digital cable, and my cable company does not offer CableCARD. They are not required to until sometime in late 2007 (currently; apparently the FCC has pushed the date back several times). Considering that device manufacturers are actually dropping support for CableCARD 1.0, and CableCARD 2.0 is possibly two years out, it looks to me that CableCARD adoption will continue to be slow. Even then, they will continue to offer set-top-boxes because most consumers will not have CableCARD-ready devices (especially considering that most currently available TVs are not CableCARD ready).

The reason for having CableCARD on the computer would be to have the computer control the TV, which I guess is the idea with WinMCE/XBox.

But by the time it becomes an issue, they'll be on iTV 3.0, and maybe that will have a CableCARD slot.

[Kickaha]

Just to be clear, there is no 'anti-tuner policy', just speculation from the lot of us.

Right now Apple has a monster hit in the iTunes Store. It's in their best interest to let the cable/satellite company handle one distribution mechanism, while they handle the online one. By adding support for CableCARD, they'd be making it easier for you, the consumer, to get content through their device that they didn't sell you. (Not that I, as a consumer, wouldn't love to see just one device next to my TV, but I digress.)

I mean, it's *possible*, but there has to be a solid business reason.

Ma and Pa Kettle aren't going to want to muck around with an MCE hooked into their TV - too much like a computer, y'know? But an iTV is sleek, minimalist, and is an extension to their current computer with iTunes. They just add it in for $299, and they can get all the internet audio/video on their home system.

It isn't designed to replace the DVR, it's designed to supplement the home computer.

[Ebby]

I didn't mean to imply a no tuner policy. One of my first Macs that I wanted had a TV tuner and I think several other models after that. Apple stopped adding TV tuners and started using S-Video/component in. Once Firewire came out, all Tuners/Video in ceased. Now, TV is added through Firewire and USB through 3rd parties and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I am sure ElGato will jump on this ASAP since they are a company that would love this announcement if they can get their product out/compatible first.

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally Posted by Mugge Or how about this little baby: http://www.miglia.com/products/video...Pro/index.html If that iTV thing is going to be as easy to use as the Airport Express, then it's Microsoft & Co. who are going to be in trouble. :P

They don't seem to support PowerBooks. Bad show.

[Mugge]

Originally Posted by Baron Munchausen They don't seem to support PowerBooks. Bad show.

Google to the rescue:

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

[RobM]

elgato's hybrid as well
http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file...ts_eyetvhybrid

Should keep you happy Baron M !

[Baron Munchausen]

Originally Posted by RobM elgato's hybrid as well http://www.elgato.com/index.php?file...ts_eyetvhybrid Should keep you happy Baron M !

Looks beautiful, but some reviewers have said it might fall prey to the infamous PB USB2 bus power problem...

[RobM]

Bung™ it in one of these then -
http://store4pc.stores.yahoo.net/usb20fir13ic.html
fwiw - I've never had an issue with usb devices when running on the card bus.

[joveblue]

Originally Posted by Kickaha I mean, it's *possible*, but there has to be a solid business reason.

How about the fact that everyone would want one and they'd sell millions?

[Kickaha]

I don't buy it, and it'd compete with their own, established, successful, iTunes Store.

I mean, if CableCARD alone were enough to ensure millions of unit shipped, then the MCE would be a much bigger hit than it is.

[sunrain]

Yeah, no. CableCard is an awesome idea, but has tons of issues to work out before it will succeed in or out of a computer. It is one of the least viable options for HD content out there right now. Cable companies have little incentive to pro-actively support it (and they haven't) until 2.0 is released and fits their business model a little better.

Kickaha is totally right. Putting anything in this iTV device that would cannibalize iTunes sales is not likely to happen. Apple could care less about your cable TV channels. They want you to buy their ala carte TV and movie content on the iTunes store. Content that you can watch on any iTV enabled TV, or on a computer, or on the go with your iPod. How is having such flexible usage of your content inferior to the Xbox 360/MCE combo again? Steve is right. The circle is complete with this device. Why would he want to let anything else inside the circle? Then it wouldn't be a circle. Steve really likes circles. I like circles. Why don't you like circles? Are you a terrorist for circles?

[Baron Munchausen]

I prefer a Moebius.

What is so good about the iTV is it is wireless IN then HDMI OUT (with analog backwards compatability).

CableCARD to me is one of the means to get content INTO a desktop before sending it over the air to the iTV.

The Mac is where the abstraction occurs. The iTV only needs to talk in one protocol for content management back to a Mac/iTunes. If you had CableCARD in iTV you would probably also have to handle a typically dysfunctional UI and flakey drivers just like you used to get with all those old MP3 players that had the most abominable content management (cr)aps. It makes the iTV too heavy.

I think Steve has it right and this is something I have been asking for for some time and it has come in the form I preferred.

[Wyatt]

Originally Posted by nickgall2nd I am still convinced that Apple would not have created this without having some plan for getting HDTV content onto it.

You're exactly right on that point. However, you're thinking too hard about how they'll do it. If they supported content from other providers, they'd be cutting the legs out from under their own products (like the iTunes Store).

They'll sell the HD content, just like they currently sell 640x480 (standard TV resolution) content. I really believe that when the announce the actual release of the iTV, they'll also announce HD downloads from the iTunes Store, both for movies and TV shows.

[sk8since89]

Originally Posted by aranhamo I had never even heard of CableCARD until your post.

I find that hard to believe. Anyone interested in HDTV's would have read about their new TV's cable card slot. Also most DVR's are now equiped with a Cable card slot. The new "joke" Tivo has two cable card slots. Digital TV and the Carble card go hand in hand.

[Engine Joe]

Originally Posted by sk8since89 I find that hard to believe. Anyone interested in HDTV's would have read about their new TV's cable card slot. Also most DVR's are now equiped with a Cable card slot. The new "joke" Tivo has two cable card slots. Digital TV and the Carble card go hand in hand.

Not really. Cable cards have not really caught on, and they've actually stopped putting the slots in a lot of HDTVs. The DLP I bought almost 2 years ago has one. My new Sony LCD does not. And none of the ones I was looking at before I bought the Sony had a cable card slot.

There was a piece either in the NYTimes or WSJ around two weeks ago about how the cable card is basically dying on the vine.

Though I will say my DVRs have slots. Funnily enough, they aren't really discussed in the documentation.

[dfiler]

Networked media players will eventually become the _only_ source device for media content in home theaters. They're perfectly capable of playing live streams from anywhere on the internet, aka, live TV.

Cable tuners will become less and less popular and eventually die as a market altogether. The market for network media players will continue to grow until they represent 90-plus percent of all component media players.

Which market would be better for apple to enter to ensure future dominance of media distribution and playback?

[carl1go]

Oh, my, do I have this right?

iTV is a wireless receiver that will play what media has made it to your computer.

Another component, another remote, a bunch of new wires, a need to run it through HDMI switches (new HT receiver needed, too?).

It does not store, download or contain whatever cablecard or satellite tuner stuff is required to eliminate those boxes and associated wires and remotes.

It does not provide the one box, one remote simple intuitive HT/media control center we, me anyway, look for Apple to provide.

Just adds more stuff so you can play video through your computer while sitting on the couch.

And, if you actually want to buy and store a lot of HD material, you will need a Blueray/HD DVD deck. More wires and remotes. Or perhaps a built-in BR drive in a new computer. Yes! More stuff!

Whoops, I forgot that Our Corprate Geniuses are still fighting over HD disk player standards. So, for now we will need larger hard drives that will be unneeded when one these morons is finally driven into the sea.

Goody, iTV may not even handle HD, so we can maybe just watch lo res images, just like in 1953.

Hey, at least there is no wire! So high tech.

At this rate there will be 143 people in the entire world that will know how to hook up and operate this stuff properly.

Jeez, some of us want to keep it simple.

Help me love iTV.

[aranhamo]

Originally Posted by sk8since89 I find that hard to believe. Anyone interested in HDTV's would have read about their new TV's cable card slot. Also most DVR's are now equiped with a Cable card slot. The new "joke" Tivo has two cable card slots. Digital TV and the Carble card go hand in hand.

Most people don't have HD TVs or DVRs (including me). And my cable company doesn't even support CableCARD, so why would I have heard of CableCARD? And as I and others have mentioned, most TV manufacturers are dropping support for CableCARD, probably waiting for CableCARD 2.0. You can easily find articles on Google that discuss the low consumer awareness of CableCARD, and the slow uptake by service providers (cable companies) as well as hardware manufacturers.

Now that I've learned a thing or two about CableCARD, I know I wouldn't want to use it, at least until after 2.0 comes out, since 1.0 is only one-way, so I wouldn't be able to have any of my on-demand programming on on-screen menus and such without the cablebox.

My brother just bought a new 52" LCD TV. Guess what! No CableCARD slot.

[CoreMac]

Originally Posted by sunrain Kickaha is totally right. Putting anything in this iTV device that would cannibalize iTunes sales is not likely to happen. Apple could care less about your cable TV channels. They want you to buy their ala carte TV and movie content on the iTunes store. Content that you can watch on any iTV enabled TV, or on a computer, or on the go with your iPod. How is having such flexible usage of your content inferior to the Xbox 360/MCE combo again? Steve is right. The circle is complete with this device. Why would he want to let anything else inside the circle? Then it wouldn't be a circle. Steve really likes circles. I like circles. Why don't you like circles? Are you a terrorist for circles?

I'm betting the iPod wouldn't have been such a hit if the only way to get songs on it is to buy them from iTunes. Don't forget selling hardware is still more important to Apple than selling content. I'm pretty sure PVR options would sell more Macs and iTVs. I know the ultimate goal is control of the media formats, but to get there you have to sell lots of units. Paid TV downloads are never going to match song sales. It's just too expensive and most of the programming is something you don't actually want to watch again. Perhaps another option is to offer free advertising sponsored TV shows, or subscriptions.

Edit- How convenient. An article today to back me up. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5350258.stm

The Jupiter Research report reveals that, on average, only 20 of the tracks on a iPod will be from the iTunes shop.

[sk8since89]

Wow, sorry guys.

I thought that since we were on a tech related forum, that everyone would be in the "know" reguarding something like a cablecard. I didn't think it was such a fringe technology.

Every TV and DVR I've owned recently has had a cable card slot. I have a Sony Bravia LCD TV, and a motorola DVR provided by my cable company (RCN).

I also have an LG LCD TV with a Cable cart slot.

I guess my perspective was off being that I was judging the situation requarding my personal experiences.

I find the Cable card to be very convienient.

[chucker]

Originally Posted by sk8since89 Every TV and DVR I've owned recently has had a cable card slot.

But iTV is neither a TV, nor a DVR. It's a means of accessing the music, photos, videos and all on your computer from your TV. It's not a means to watch or record TV.

[Engine Joe]

Originally Posted by sk8since89 Every TV and DVR I've owned recently has had a cable card slot. I have a Sony Bravia LCD TV, and a motorola DVR provided by my cable company (RCN).

Er... my Sony Brevia LCD (the just-released 32S2010) doesn't have a slot.

My Scientific Atlanta HD-DVRs both do, though.

[userinterface]

CableCard is not important, it doesn't work properly, there's all sorts of versions. And it' NOT GOING TO BE USED ANYMORE.

The FCC just gave the cable companies permission to drop all cablecard support (it was a forced thing) which they will be doing.

I want a simple solution from Apple, not a DVR... I have a comcast DVR I'll keep my Apple box on a separate interface. No doubt people will built accessories for the iTV device with it's USB connection

[sunrain]

Originally Posted by userinterface The FCC just gave the cable companies permission to drop all cablecard support...

Do you have a link for this?