[_Ω_]

Luckily for me I have lots of things going against me:

• Too Old
• No respect for authority
• A big girls blouse
• Don't live in the States

Yep, I'm safe.

I think a lot of people would object to going to this war. As stated above defending freedom against a credible enemy is one thing, fighting for Bush another.

[cooop]

Count me among the potential draftees. I'll be 20 in December.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by thegelding heck, i'm irish and drink guiness...and canada would be great, english speaking (at least half) which is good for me as a slow learner this was part of the article: Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era. College and Canada will not be options. In December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U.S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30-point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. g

Just noticed this thread. I guess I was concentrating too much on boobies.

In any event, I am not sure that the agreement that you refer to above means that staying in Canada would be impossible. It might be a bit more difficult to get here - given the pre-clearance rules - but even then it likely would be far from impossible. Would men and women of draft age be prevented from going on a normal vacation in Canada? I doubt it. And once they are here, I am not sure that anything in the agreement addresses whether they would be returned. I could be wrong, but I certainly had not heard that.

I personally would love to see more Americans up here. I've known some draft dodgers from Vietnam. Many stayed even after the amnesty and did a lot for this country. Indeed, I am not sure why liberals from the U.S. don't just come up right now to escape the current Republican junta. Perhaps they don't like our weather.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Chinney I personally would love to see more Americans up here. I've known some draft dodgers from Vietnam. Many stayed even after the amnesty and did a lot for this country. Indeed, I am not sure why liberals from the U.S. don't just come up right now to escape the current Republican junta. Perhaps they don't like our weather.

Hi Chinney -

Well, when I was in Victoria, British Columbia, I read in the local paper 'letters to the editor' about how some people in BC resented Americans. They were annoyed about SO many things wrt the US and Americans. Iirc, some of it had to do with our 'culture' washing over the border and overwhelming things Canadian. Some of it had to do with politics, some had to do with just thinking Americans in general were obnoxious.

Since then, I have just sort of assumed that that was the feeling of Canadians in general wrt to the US and Americans. So I am surprised to hear you say you'd like more of us up there. Am I wrong in thinking there's a low-key hostility in Canada toward Americans?

[Wrao]

Nah, Murbot's cool

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Carol Hi Chinney - Well, when I was in Victoria, British Columbia, I read in the local paper 'letters to the editor' about how some people in BC resented Americans. They were annoyed about SO many things wrt the US and Americans. Iirc, some of it had to do with our 'culture' washing over the border and overwhelming things Canadian. Some of it had to do with politics, some had to do with just thinking Americans in general were obnoxious. Since then, I have just sort of assumed that that was the feeling of Canadians in general wrt to the US and Americans. So I am surprised to hear you say you'd like more of us up there. Am I wrong in thinking there's a low-key hostility in Canada toward Americans?

Interesting subject to bring up (for some of us). And it's not one to be answered briefly. No, it's a topic one that deserves one of those special, long "Chinney-posts" that I use to lay down occasionally in .com, but rarely do anymore. Maybe even its own special Chinney-thread - like the good old ones that got 7 hits and no responses.

I'll see what I can do when I have a bit of time.

[thegelding]

i have many friends from canada...all nice people...most have dual citizenship...most came to the states for jobs....

i wouldn't mind living in some parts of canada...i hear the weather is quite nice in parts...mostly i like the high desert life and i don't think i can get that there...but mostly it is this (similar to once when i asked murbot why he didn't move south to the states)...i was born in the usa, i like the usa, i could live just about anywhere, but this is my home country....why would i move unless forced?? (the tougher question is why anybody lives in somolia or the gaza strip or iowa)

that being said, canada is one of the 5 places i would live other than the usa...i can't learn foreign languages well so i keep my choices to english speaking countries with mild climates (new zealand, scotland, ireland, australia, and canada....)

g

why not england i hear some of you asking...well i don't like rain and overcast too much...i only include ireland and scotland because i am half irish and half scotish and i always wanted to live in a castle on the moors

[Moogs]

Actually Chinney, I have considered moving to Canada on a couple of occasions. Not for political reasons so much as I just think living near the Canadian rockies would be awesome and I think the people would be a little more bearable. Getting away from Bush (should he blind people into re-electing him) would be a nice bonus...

... but it's not the Draft rules that do / would make it difficult to find refuge in Canada. It's the labor laws. You cannot legally move to Canada without a written, standing job offer from a Canadian company, if memory serves. So you can't say, quit your job here, use the money you've saved to go buy a house there, and just move with the local provincial government's blessing.

You have to prove you will be able to contribute to the economy there before you ever step foot across the border I think.

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Moogs Actually Chinney, I have considered moving to Canada on a couple of occasions. Not for political reasons so much as I just think living near the Canadian rockies would be awesome and I think the people would be a little more bearable. Getting away from Bush (should he blind people into re-electing him) would be a nice bonus... ... but it's not the Draft rules that do / would make it difficult to find refuge in Canada. It's the labor laws. You cannot legally move to Canada without a written, standing job offer from a Canadian company, if memory serves. So you can't say, quit your job here, use the money you've saved to go buy a house there, and just move with the local provincial government's blessing. You have to prove you will be able to contribute to the economy there before you ever step foot across the border I think.

I think I remember reading that New Zealand has a similar law. Must be nice that some countries can pass laws that function to actually 'control' the numbers of people coming across their borders.

[Chinney]

g, moogs

I did not expect such heart-felt ruminations in response to my comments re ‘why not move to Canada’ – although I appreciated reading them.

I, of course, was not being entirely serious when I suggested that American liberals should just move wholesale to Canada. I realize that there are a whole host of practical reasons that prevent this, including – as Moogs suggests – the fact that, despite free-trade agreements, there is still not free movement across the border for the purpose of actually setting up and living here (and vice versa for Canadians going to the U.S.). Also, moving to a different country for political reasons is a pretty extreme thing to do.

I do think though, for potential draft-dodgers, the basis for them remaining in Canada, has not been changed. To tell you the truth, I am not sure exactly what this legal basis is – perhaps refugee status – but I have never heard anything about it having been changed.

Although I was not being entirely serious about moving up here, I was not entirely joking. From a Canadian perspective, a good proportion of the U.S. has taken a hard, hard right turn over the last 20-25 years. If these right-wing extremists had their way, the actions of the current U.S. administration would be just a precursor of what could occur. While I think that liberals and moderate conservatives still account for more than 50% of the U.S. population, I think that it is just barely over 50%, and I fear that it is shrinking. I recently read an analysis of U.S. politics that suggested that 40-45% of the U.S. public was prepared to vote for the current administration ‘no matter what’. That is a pretty strong guaranteed power base, and given a likely split in the moderate conservative vote, it gives the extreme right pretty good chance of winning a solid majority of federal and state elections in the U.S. for the foreseeable future. I do seriously wonder if, at a certain point, liberal Americans will simply no longer be comfortable living in the U.S.

All this being said, we are currently in the middle of an election campaign in Canada and it seems likely that the Conservative party – which has recently been taken over by its extremist wing – will make considerable gains in Parliament and perhaps even form the government. I am not sure that this is a reflection of a fundamental right-wing shift in Canada – people are rather just naturally of the current government, after many years in power (and a few recent scandals), and are ready for a natural switch. The Conservatives seem to be the most likely alternative, and people are hoping for that the Conservatives will ‘govern from the middle’. I think, however, if they get in power, the Conservatives will show their true right-wing nature and the trend in the current Canadian election means that Canada could soon have a government that is very sympathetic to the Bush-Cheney adminstration.

I still have to respond to Carol’s post about whether Canadians are 'anti-American' - as I said that I would do - but I’ll do that over the weekend.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by Carol I think I remember reading that New Zealand has a similar law. Must be nice that some countries can pass laws that function to actually 'control' the numbers of people coming across their borders.

Hi Carol,

The U.S. also has such laws, as does pretty much every other country in the world. I do not believe that there is any country in the world that allows unrestricted immigration rights.

(As indicated, I have not forgot about your earlier post, but I am still thinking about it and will respond soon.)

[thegelding]

hey, what about vancouver?? seems to have nice weather...i like to bike and hike...it has places for that....

so vancouver could be doable...what other cities should i check out in canada??

requirements...children's hospital for me to work at, mild climate (able to bike or hike or something similar most months), english speaking...and please, a somewhat liberal city...

g

[Windswept]

Originally Posted by Chinney Hi Carol, The U.S. also has such laws, as does pretty much every other country in the world. I do not believe that there is any country in the world that allows unrestricted immigration rights. (As indicated, I have not forgot about your earlier post, but I am still thinking about it and will respond soon.)

Yeah, we *have* those laws, but they only get applied to the 12 people every year who actually apply for legal entrance. The other *million* just wade across the river anytime they feel like it.

[Chinney]

Originally Posted by thegelding hey, what about vancouver?? seems to have nice weather...i like to bike and hike...it has places for that.... so vancouver could be doable...what other cities should i check out in canada?? requirements...children's hospital for me to work at, mild climate (able to bike or hike or something similar most months), english speaking...and please, a somewhat liberal city... g

Liberal we can do for you. Children's hospitals we can do too. Mild climate is a bit more difficult. Even Vancouver is not the greatest - a bit cool and very rainy during the winter - but it is probably the best we've got for those who don't like winter. Next best might be Halifax, on the east coast - where it can be cold during the winter, but it is generally not bone-chilling cold.

[Chinney]

Are Canadians anti-American? As promised…my thoughts on this:

The answer, from my perspective, is both “yes”, and “no”. While that does not sound very helpful, let me provide some explanation.

From the “yes” perspective, I think that there are at least 3 aspects of anti-Americanism in Canada. The first is what I would characterize “knee-jerk” anti-Americanism that infects some of my fellow Canadians, and others around the world. It is an anti-Americanism that is willing to dismiss and criticize things American, simply on the basis that they are American. Ironically, those who express such sentiments will often do so while unknowingly (or sometimes knowingly) enjoying products or benefits that have, in some signficant degree, come from the U.S. Like all prejudices, such sentiments are stupid and unacceptable, but they do exist.

The second is cultural resentment. There is a type of anti-Americanism that is, in my view, largely a product of resentment of home-grown culture being swamped by American culture. This has been a concern of Canadians for years. While it is also a concern in other countries, I think it has been a special concern in English-speaking Canada, where integration with U.S. culture is pervasive and where, as a result, there has been much navel-gazing worry over whether we even have a Canadian culture. I can sympathize, to some degree, with these feelings, but only to a limited degree. I think that culture is a fluid thing, that has little respect for borders, nationalism, or efforts to keep it static or free from ‘foreign’ influence. I think that ensuring the survival of local culture is important, but I think that this is best done by positive support for the culture, rather than protectionism or resentment against what comes from outside. Cultural from the ‘outside’ is to be enjoyed, appreciated and should be a source of influence. Everything influences everything else – heck, I think that Canadians have influenced American culture, whether or not we or they realize it.

The third type of anti-Americanism is political. In fact, I think that this is not really anti-Americanism, but legitimate political disagreement that is disguised as anti-Americanism. I think that the political culture in the United States underwent a significant shift towards conservatism about 20-25 years ago, with the advent of the Reagan administration. The degree of esteem and admiration that Reagan enjoyed and has continued to enjoy – up to and now, likely, beyond his death – even among supposed political moderates in the United States is emblematic of a fundamental shift in attitude – not only of the extremes, but even (and perhaps especially) of the political centre. What Americans may not entirely realize is that this fundamental shift did not occur in Canada, or most of the rest of the 'western' world. While there have been strong conservative governments in other western countries (such as Thatcherism in its prime) I don’t think that the same underlying rightward shift in the general political culture has occurred. The split between Canada and the U.S. in this regard is significant, and is a source of tension and political sniping that is sometimes perceived as anti-Americanism. I don’t think, however, that this is real or objectionable anti-Americanism, as political disagreement is an entirely legitimate form of difference and debate.

Now for the good news. I really don’t think that anti-Americanism in Canada is deeply felt, or often affects the immensely good day-to-day relations between people in the two countries. Overall, I believe that Canadians are pro-American, and vice versa. Canadians and Americans visit, work and even live very comfortably in each other's countries. The amount of integration between us is amazing. While the gap in political attitude between the countries is significant – and the source of some underlying worry for me - I think that people on both sides of the border have largely transcended it in ongoing relations and I am confident that they will continue to do so.

I am sure that all of this is more than you wanted to read…but it is something that was on my mind, so I let it spill.

[thegelding]

thanks chin....i always thought we should just extend the US border about 50 miles north...wouldn't that get about 80 percent of the canadian population??

g

[Stroszek]

Originally Posted by HOM Methinks that the nation is going to see a huge increase of homosexuals if the draft is reinstated.

Not so much. About a week after 9/11, the Pentagon very quietly suspended the discharge of gays and lesbians until after the conflict. Basically, they say that gays and lesbians are welcome to serve in the military as long as they follow the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy, However, if they were to disobey this policy, they cannot be discharged until after the conflict due to a stop-loss order. But at that point, they will receive a dishonorable discharge.

"First, gays and lesbians would be allowed to serve during any war, just as they do now, as long as they remain in compliance with the homosexual conduct policy," said Maj. James P. Cassella of the assistant secretary of defense for public affairs' office.

I can serve during war, but not during peace? God, I love this administration.

For those who are interested, here's a link: Pentagon suspends discharges, including those against gays, lesbians during conflict