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Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
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I expect it's more likely that SpaceX's Starlink constellation will provide a global network via wifi than it is Apple will build a "traditional" cellular network at this point.
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Well, this Apple processor thing continues onward. The A13 carries on the aggressive annual upgrade cycle. And I was wondering something:
Are we counting "cores" properly? What I mean is that the core-count in the A-series chips is … off? Apple claims 6 CPU cores, and that is, of course, true. But, Is that all the "cores" there are? And is Apple thinking about "cores" the same way the rest of the industry is? I was just looking at the CPU image Apple posted during the keynote, and I think the answer is "no". The actual cores look like this:
Technically, the A13 has 20 identifiable processor cores, each of which is serving specialized tasks. Now, I'm not trying to make argument or overstretch my knowledge, here. I'm just wondering if the concept of "cores" is changing as far as Apple's efforts are concerned. With control over the entire product, we know they are creating cores in direct support of software functionality. And Apple directly calls these areas out as cores. What you guys think? - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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(Disclaimer: IANA hardware engineer)
This gets tricky fast. For example, the MacBook Air has an Ambery Lake-Y processor. It has two cores, right? Except it kind of doesn't. For one, there's the whole hyperthreading deal that gives it four "virtual" cores. But secondly, it comes with the UHD Graphics 617 GPU, which has 24 "execution units" and 192 "shading units". Let's ignore shaders for now; that still doesn't really make the 8210Y a 26-core chip. (Except it kind of does; see below.) The way you split it in categories makes sense to me. Assuming execution units are roughly equal to "cores", that would give it:
If you take an algorithm that runs in a GPGPU setting like OpenCL/CUDA/Metal, you can in fact make that code run on 26 cores, in parallel. Just, in practice, you'll rarely run into that scenario. Little code is parallelizable at all, and way less code is equally well-suited for the CPU as it is for the GPU. So your question is interesting, but hard to answer. Safari isn't gonna use those Neural Engine cores to render the AppleNova site any time soon. And just as adding cores has diminishing returns, pointing out the core count has diminishing usefulness when those cores are increasingly specialized. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Yeah, that's kinda my thinking. Apple seems well poised to continue adding very specialized "cores" as the software dictates. We know that certain apps (like the camera app) already take advantage of this specialty separation, which means developers should also have access to at least some of that tech.
- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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So everybody was buzzing today about the ARM switch leak/projection.
This report still doesn't make sense to me. Or to be more precise, the timing doesn't make sense. ARM chips in Macs are definitely coming, but Apple will have 5nm chips in hand this June. Obviously there needs to be lead-time for developers, but those same developers will also need a reference machine to test with. And anyone who is paying attention knows that Apple has been testing this idea for quite a while. I think a new ARM-based Mac Mini gets unveiled at WWDC, and is pitched as a testbed for developers. If it's going to be really close to a 'one-click to recompile apps' (followed by a couple months of tweaking... ) it makes no sense to wait. This is different from the PowerPC or Intel transitions, all the major apps' codebases are relatively new. There's no need for a six-month wait to see an ARM machine. |
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I kind of only see ARM-based Macs on the low end for now — the MacBook Air, for example. (Maybe the reintroduction of a smaller Air.) The Intel transition came at a time when PowerPC CPUs, particular in mobile, were significantly slower than what Intel Core had to offer, in part because Intel Core offered two cores, even on laptops (with the exception of the oddball Mac mini Core Solo), whereas on PowerPC, a multi-core setup had only been feasible on the Power Mac tower. That meant for the iMac and MacBook Pro that were first released that even at emulation, apps still felt reasonably usable. We are unlikely to see this kind of leap again. Apple's ARM CPUs offer Apple more control, and they also seem to do a better job offering high single-core performance at low power draw than Intel has been doing. But I've seen no evidence that, at higher TDPs, Apple would far significantly better at Intel. People seem to extrapolate this, but there's simply little basis. That means that:
But on the low end? Those apps matter less, and the power advantage matters more. So if ARM Macs happen at all, I'd say the first one will be a MacBook Air. As for Pro models, I'm not sure that will ever happen. It's a solution in search of a problem. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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1) Yes, the MacBook Air is a great place to start, and so is the Mac Mini. However, neither of them is likely to be called that. 2) It is not a problem in search of a solution any more than it was for iPhone. Intel is not giving Apple what they want, and Apple is going to take matters into their own hands. Plus, Apple will develop ARM-X and Mac OS-X alongside each other and optimize performance just as they have on iPhone. This will give them a future performance advantage—and it may take ten years or more. It won't be right away, but it will happen eventually. They have the best chip design team on Earth, and I bet they already have it (Air/Mini at least) running in the labs. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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iOS was different in part because the original iPhone was so severely resource-constrained (at this point, I'm certain they regret some of its early design decisions!), and in part because they wanted a clean break. How do you market a clean break on the Mac? And why, for that matter? No amount of marketing will significantly grow the Mac ever again (that ship has sailed for any PC manufacturer), so you want to gradually modernize as they have been, not radically alter things. Quote:
But there's simply zero outside knowledge on how Apple's chips scale to the needs of a MacBook Pro, let alone a Mac Pro. And even if it does scale great, what's the point of manufacturing a CPU with such low volume as that on the Mac Pro? At best, you're angering your existing customers because you broke their stuff again. At worst, you also don't really deliver a performance advantage. "Best chip design team on earth"? Well, these things come and go. One of the key designers of Apple Ax is now at Intel. They've been doing terrific work. Don't jinx it by having expectations that cannot realistically be met. |
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But then simply a 13-inch 8-core Ryzen 4000. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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Those A-chip Macs can't get here soon enough.
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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The thing about this new vulnerability is that physical access is required. That almost always in limited and mitigates most of the vulnerability. Sure if someone has access to your machine you're going to be screwed anyway. Access and time is all it takes to break any encryption.
Sure this looks bad, but where the rubber meets the road there is so little real world threat that it really is a non-issue... at least as I read the vulnerability works. Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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Anyone have thoughts on whether the current world situation will impact an A-chip-for-Mac announcement?
Apple is moving WWDC to a streaming-only format, much of which will get drowned out by Covid19 coverage. I can't imagine this is how they would want to roll out a major architecture change. But they might be too far down the (assembly) line to delay for a year. |
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Considering that TSMC makes the chips for Apple, the current situation very much could change things.
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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Looks like Bloomburg is saying next year we see Macs with A14 (or similar) chip in them instead of Intel.
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And, with Apple's chips in particular, where they really strive is in single-core performance, which helps with a ton of scenarios (especially the web: JavaScript is by and large single-threaded). I feel like Gurman is either overstating this aspect, or doesn't really know what he's talking about. |
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Indeed, for most users 4-8 cores is more than enough. The only time most users will test that kind of power would be editing a home video. If Apple can match the single thread IPC of entry level AMD/Intel chips that’s fine, but I cannot see these taking hold beyond entry level models at this point, even a year from now it is questionable. I just don’t see ARM based chips competing with the high end i5s/i7s/i9 processors any time soon.
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Rocket Surgeon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
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Have we discussed what this move might mean for Boot Camp / Parallels? I rely on them to do my day to day work, now that BlueBeam have discontinued the Mac version. It would suck to have to buy a work PC to go alongside my Mac.
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Assuming Mac on ARM is a thing at all, the next question is: will it be a thing only for low-end models, or also for ones where some people use Boot Camp or virtualization? If they only do the low end, I think they'll just throw the entire subject under the rug. If they also do the high end, I don't think that's an option (and if it is, I'm probably outta here). Here's one thing they could do. Windows does run on ARM, and includes an emulator, albeit only for 32-bit apps. Apple might go into some kind of licensing agreement to make the A14M compatible enough with Qualcomm's Windows chips (e.g., the Microsoft collaboration 'SQ1') that Windows boots. (I'm told people have managed to boot it without Qualcomm's help, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Qualcomm agrees in terms of licensing…) That would mean ARM apps on Windows would just work, and fairly fast at that, but they're kind of far and few between (MS Office? nope!). Other apps would run in emulation. But presumably, that's also the case on macOS: either Apple ships an emulator, or you'll find yourself waiting for apps to be ported. It's just that Apple is far better at convincing third parties (and their own teams, DEAR MICROSOFT OFFICE TEAM) that, hey, seriously, we're transitioning, and you're with us or go to hell. Microsoft doesn't do that. |
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Lord of the Rant.
Formerly turtle2472 Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Upstate South Carolina
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The lack of being able to run Windows on my Mac would be a challenge. I'd likely end up building/moving my VM to an ESXi host and just using RDP to "work" from. Not ideal, but it would keep my from having to keep a physical Windows machine just for work.
Louis L'Amour, “To make democracy work, we must be a nation of participants, not simply observers. One who does not vote has no right to complain.” Visit our archived Minecraft world! | Maybe someday I'll proof read, until then deal with it. |
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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There are several bridges that need crossing, and I suspect Apple is going to cross them one at a time. MacBook first, maybe the Mac Mini or an entry iMac second, then on to higher end laptops and iMacs, and then the Mac Pro. That will probably happen over the course of 3-5 years (or faster if Apple's chip designs are a lot further along than we think—after all, there is nothing that says they have to use existing Ax chips; they may have something already prototyped that is years ahead of anything in the iPhone/iPad).
Things like pro software will come along quickly since Microsoft and Adobe are already partially in the game with their iOS offerings, and certainly Apple's Pro apps will be along shortly. Once the ball is rolling, however, it is going to roll swiftly, especially if Apple makes Mac OS Ax look and feel just like it's X86 variant. If I can't tell the difference, it will be successful, and people will rush in to buy them, especially since it is likely that Ax Macs will be $200+ cheaper simply because the silicon will be that much cheaper. - AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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Rocket Surgeon
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The Canadark
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I do wonder if Apple don't really realize how much a "feature" being able to boot other x86 OS's really is for a lot of people.
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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This question keeps being asked and is easily answered. Intel-Mac motherboard designs will not spontaneously combust simply because Apple introduces a new chip. We live in a world where the government is using COBOL systems to deliver cheques in 2020. You're going to be fine. |
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Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Toronto
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Of course, the best thing about this leak is that it confirms that the WWDC 2020 keynote is going to be absolutely epic.
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Which way is up?
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Boyzeee
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Yep. As I've said, if ARM Macs are coming anytime in the next 6-9 months, then this rev of Mac OS has to support them, and that means developers have to have time to get up to speed. They already have the hardware (iPad Pro with Magic Keyboard); now, they just need the software.
- AppleNova is the best Mac-users forum on the internet. We are smart, educated, capable, and helpful. We are also loaded with smart-alecks! :) - Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Mat 5:9) |
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