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Unbelievable (XBox murders/Death penalty)
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Mass Appeal
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Miskatonic Library
 
2004-08-09, 09:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Because the anti-death penalty groups concentrate on the *PENALTY ONLY*. They never seem to discuss how the same exact system that seems to be incapable of handing out death penalties is also handing out *other* punishments just as poorly. The most commonly used argument I've seen is that well, the system isn't perfect, so execution is bad. Um, no. That means that the system is imperfect, and needs to be fixed so that *any* punishment handed out is to the proper person.
The fact is our system is not perfect. If we kill the wrong person there is no going back. To remedy the possibility of an uncorrectable mistake all it would take would be one bill from congress. To fix the entire system would require Americans to give a shit and to pressure polititions into action, that's not going to happen. As for anti-death penalty groups mabye they see their cause as a more realistic goal. You seem to think that taking on the whole system is the only way to go when piece meal may be a more effective route.
Quote:

It's not blood thirst. It's simple economics and resource allocation.
What you wrote frightens me more then what those four individuals did.
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Mr Beardsley
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2004-08-09, 10:40

Quote:
What you wrote frightens me more then what those four individuals did.
Yes because looking at the situation from an economics stand point is so much worse than brutally killing a family.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 10:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mass Appeal
The fact is our system is not perfect. If we kill the wrong person there is no going back. To remedy the possibility of an uncorrectable mistake all it would take would be one bill from congress.
You're missing the point. Show me how you can give back someone the years spent in jail, their broken relationships with family, their reputation. You can NEVER go back on ANY punishment that involves jail time. They are *ALL* uncorrectable. To use this argument to vilify one punishment to the exclusion of the real problem is idiotic.

Quote:
To fix the entire system would require Americans to give a shit and to pressure polititions into action, that's not going to happen. As for anti-death penalty groups mabye they see their cause as a more realistic goal.
Then they are deluding themselves, and only creating another problem in the process. It's a band-aid, a tiny little patch that will only end up with less resources available for those who are actually in need. They claim to want to help poor innocent souls... I would actually be shocked if any of them had the nerve to walk up to a starving child and simply say "I'm sorry, we can't feed you because we're feeding a murderer in prison, and have to keep him alive." Yes, it's really that simple. Who would you rather feed? Clothe? House? I know my answer.

Quote:
You seem to think that taking on the whole system is the only way to go when piece meal may be a more effective route.
If the reason they espouse for eliminating the death penalty is that the system is broken, and imperfect, then FIX THE DAMNED SYSTEM. They're sidestepping the very problem they're pointing out! They don't care about the system, they have problems with the punishment itself, and are using a very real problem as the red flag, but then not doing a damned thing about said problem, instead leaving innocent people to rot in jail - you know, the ones they claim to want to help.

Hypocrisy.

Quote:
What you wrote frightens me more then what those four individuals did.
Good. Because it hammers home the fact that this is a highly serious and disturbing decision, once you cut through the rhetoric and hypocrisy. It is not an easy problem, and it is not one that can be solved with candlelight vigils and rounds of Kumbaiah.

Until every single person is fed, clothed, and housed... has access to education, and opportunity... I will support the death penalty. When that utopia is finally reached, *THEN* I will agree we have the resources to keep murderers and such alive. Until then, they are nothing but a burden and a waste, and should receive *none* of the benefits our of society. Not food, shelter, or warmth. Simply turning them out doesn't work, they have to be removed. Since we have nowhere else to send them, I support the death penalty for those who have proven themselves to be unrehabilitatable.

I find it amusing that I'm being cast as the monster, when I simply don't see why someone who beats a family to death with baseball bats in their sleep is held in higher regard than a needy child. Might want to rethink that.
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psmith2.0
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Location: Tennessee
 
2004-08-09, 10:55

I love Kickaha.
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-08-09, 11:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
I would actually be shocked if any of them had the nerve to walk up to a starving child and simply say "I'm sorry, we can't feed you because we're feeding a murderer in prison, and have to keep him alive." Yes, it's really that simple. Who would you rather feed? Clothe? House? I know my answer.

Until every single person is fed, clothed, and housed... has access to education, and opportunity... I will support the death penalty. When that utopia is finally reached, *THEN* I will agree we have the resources to keep murderers and such alive. Until then, they are nothing but a burden and a waste, and should receive *none* of the benefits our of society. Not food, shelter, or warmth. Simply turning them out doesn't work, they have to be removed. Since we have nowhere else to send them, I support the death penalty for those who have proven themselves to be unrehabilitatable.
Except that death penalty cases do cost more. So if it's a cost issue, then the death penalty is not the way to go.

Your other argument doesn't fly either. It's essentially, "Well, sure he was innocent, but it's OK that he's dead because his life would have been shit at this point anyway."

You aren't any monster for supporting execution. I wouldn't blink an eye if these guys were killed by the state. I'd probably help if given the chance.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 11:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodata
Except that death penalty cases do cost more. So if it's a cost issue, then the death penalty is not the way to go.
Do you know *why* death penalty cases cost more? (And, cost more than what? A non-DP case? Or clothing, housing, and feeding them for the rest of their lives?)

Two reasons: One, the death penalty is seen as final and irrevocable, so more resources are put into making damned sure this is the person responsible. Fine, I don't have a problem with that... but consider what it means. It means the other cases are not being given that same level of care. If you have to add *more* resources to ensure a guilty, and only a guilty person is convicted, then you're not doing the proper thing in the other cases. Two, the same groups that tout that death penalties cost more are the same ones bringing lawsuit after lawsuit, and driving up the costs. Um... conflict of interest much? That's like an environmental group firing up a coal plant, and then complaining about the air quality.

Quote:
Your other argument doesn't fly either. It's essentially, "Well, sure he was innocent, but it's OK that he's dead because his life would have been shit at this point anyway."
Well, actually, no, my argument has never been anywhere close to that, and I would appreciate it if you would explain how you came to that conclusion.

In fact, you're 180deg off of my argument - that a system that sends innocent people to their deaths *ALSO* sends innocent people to rot in jail for years or decades, and that *THAT* is the problem, even more so. It isn't that the death penalty is the only way to go, it's that the groups opposing it are focussing on the wrong damned issue. They're turning a blind eye to the actual cause, and are instead just obsessively focussing on one symptom.
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-08-09, 11:53

Yeah, we all want a utopia, but it's not going to happen so we deal with what we have. The system doesn't work, but no one cares and fixing it would require a major overhaul of the penal system. I have a buddy that did graduate work on prisons, an aquantance who's a prison guard and a cousin who is a parole officer. All of them say the same thing: the public doesn't care enough to make the needed changes. So the best we can do is avoid the most serious problems, such as wasting money killing potentially innocent people.
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stoo
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2004-08-09, 12:13

Quote:
That means that the system is imperfect, and needs to be fixed so that *any* punishment handed out is to the proper person.
So how do you get a legal system that provides no false positives? The issues are not merely mixed but inseperable in the case of the death penalty. Unfortunately for your cost argument, a more accurate system would probably not be any swifter or cheaper. A perfect judicial system is unobtainable.

Quote:
perfectly acceptable punishment
Not to everyone.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 12:25

So we shouldn't even *try* and move towards a more perfect judicial system, because a perfect one isn't obtainable? We should instead continue on the completely broken method we have now, but oh, oops, this *one* punishment makes us feel queasy, so gee, let's get rid of *that* one so we can all pat each other and the back and say "Wow, we're such humanitarians!" while innocent people continue to sit out sentences for crimes they never committed?

Sorry, I utterly disagree.

The problem I have with the anti-death-penalty movement is that they're not only concentrating on the wrong thing, *but doing so willfully*. They *KNOW* what the problem is - they use it as an argument! But golly gee, it's just to *hard* to fix *that*, so instead they're just going to shoot for the easy route, and feel like they're doing good. Hypocrites.

The problem isn't the penalty. It's the system. Fix *that*, if you really give a damn. Otherwise you're just blowing smoke, and being a hypocrite. If the false positives approach zero, then we can say the system works. And then, and *only* then, does the argument of for/against the death penalty have any meaning.

People are focussing on the wrong damned problem, and their ignorance is spreading.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 12:28

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodata
So the best we can do is avoid the most serious problems, such as wasting money killing potentially innocent people.
Replace 'killing' with 'incarcerating'. No real difference in my mind, for sentences measured in decades. Once that leap is made, it's obvious that the entire system is borked, and the anti-death-penalty movement is barking up the wrong tree.

To recap:

I believe in:
- Fixing the system to push the number of false convictions to zero *first*
- Rehabilitation and education are cornerstones of any penal system that wants to place members back into society, and should be ubiquitous
- There *are* people who are unrehabilitable
- For those very small few who are unable to be rehabilitated, I would much rather spend resources on feeding and educating needy people who have never proven themselves a danger, than wasting it on someone who has proven themselves to be that danger
- Once that point is reached, and since we have no distant shores to send these people to, I support the death penalty in a fast, humane manner

People will disagree with various points on this list, but that's my position in a very large nutshell.

And on that note, I'm going to drop out of this thread. Too much work today, too little time, and this is an issue that people in general don't budge on. Including me, so... Enjoyed the discussion though.

Last edited by Kickaha : 2004-08-09 at 12:37.
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
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2004-08-09, 12:34

what about wasting money housing for life habitual rapists and murders?
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 12:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
what about wasting money housing for life habitual rapists and murders?
Stupid cross-posts...

See above. Are they rehabilitatable? If no, then I don't see the point keeping them around when other people need that food and shelter.

Consider it a strong motivation for playing nice with the other members of society.

And on *THAT* note... stepping out for a while.
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
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2004-08-09, 12:42

lol, i was agreeing with you Kick. sorry if that wasn't clear.

when you have finite resources, you have to ask yourself where it's best spent.

odds are the tens of thousands it would cost per year to house a life enrolled level 3 sex offender would do more good going to kids in classrooms around the state/country.
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autodata
hustlin
 
Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-08-09, 14:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by alcimedes
when you have finite resources, you have to ask yourself where it's best spent.
Well, if you want the resources to go to "kids in classrooms around the state/country," then supporting the death penalty is the worst position since it costs more money than putting them in prison for life. That's the simple fact as it stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha
Fixing the system to push the number of false convictions to zero *first*
I agree.

The fact is that since we know that there are many false convinctions and it costs more money to execute people the practical thing to do would be to eliminate the death penalty until those problems are solved.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 14:31

Quote:
Originally Posted by autodata
Well, if you want the resources to go to "kids in classrooms around the state/country," then supporting the death penalty is the worst position since it costs more money than putting them in prison for life. That's the simple fact as it stands.
It's not a simple fact.... WHY does it cost more? Get to the bottom of that, and I think you'll find yourself looking at that 'fact' a bit askance. It's not an inherent fact of the penalty, but the way in which opponents approach it... again, sidestepping the real issues and just causing an artificial situation to support their own platform.

Fix the system. That's the only reasonable answer. Calling for a moratorium on the death penalty while still allowing people to sit out sentences measured in decades unopposed is asinine to me. If you're going to call for a moratorium, do it across the board - but then you've got the little problem of what to *do* with people you don't want to make suffer through wronged sentences... but keep track of... oy. It's not a solvable problem in my mind.

I was *this* close to agreeing that a temporary moratorium on death penalties was the answer - until I realized that that's all the further most groups and individuals want to take it. Once they get to that point, they're happy... using the 'the system is broken' argument was just a means to an end for them, and they lose the willpower to continue fighting the critical fight. So I say... if they really want to ensure that no innocent person is executed, make sure no innocent person is imprisoned. That's the *first* step, not the last one. There's where the energy and drive need to be focussed - concentrating on the death penalty is just a diversion and red herring.

ARGH! Blast you people! I was going to go work!
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stoo
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Join Date: May 2004
 
2004-08-09, 17:55

A better justice system is a laudable aim, but you cannot have a perfect one. How is it hypocritical to acknowledge the problem of totally permanent and irrevocable sentences in an imperfect justice system? Furthermore, I'm fairly certain that the anti-death penalty supporters have a genuine moral issues with the death penalty (flippantly dismissed as "queasy" feelings).

Quote:
WHY does it cost more?
Time waiting for appeals, which are a vital part of an accurate and fair justice system. Could save a lot of time and cash there.
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eventhorizon
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2004-08-09, 18:15

First thing we can do is unclog our system of all the stupid drug cases.
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InactionMan
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2004-08-09, 18:16

Kickaha, when you say the state shouldn't waste resources on people that cannot be rehabilitated, does this apply to murderers and rapist only or does it also apply people that continually end of in jail for simple drug possession and other non-violent crimes?
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Mass Appeal
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Miskatonic Library
 
2004-08-09, 19:03

To bring this thread back on topic a bit if this discussion is anything like the one happening around the water cooler or in the political arena then the affect video game violence has on real world violence will be drowned out by this sort of arguement.

Now see if you guys can troll Kickaha for one last encore.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 19:22

I aim to please...

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoo
A better justice system is a laudable aim, but you cannot have a perfect one. How is it hypocritical to acknowledge the problem of totally permanent and irrevocable sentences in an imperfect justice system?
Because it denies the fact that putting someone behind bars for 20 years is *ALSO* irrevocable. You can no more give them back those years than you can bring someone back from the dead. It pushes aside the real problems with the system to focus on one area that is guaranteed to get the proponents good press time... but not actually change much.

Quote:
Furthermore, I'm fairly certain that the anti-death penalty supporters have a genuine moral issues with the death penalty (flippantly dismissed as "queasy" feelings).
When they don't appear to have thought out the morality of their arguments, and the end results, then I have to seriously question their 'moral' basis for their position. Instead, they stop at the point at which *their* own personal sense of indignity is satisfied, and never bother to look beyond to the consequences of those actions. That is the point I have an issue with.

Quote:
Time waiting for appeals, which are a vital part of an accurate and fair justice system. Could save a lot of time and cash there.
So... why are these cases more costly when there are other cases where innocent people are found guilty? Do they not deserve an equal access to an extended appeals process before being placed in prison for what may be the rest of their lives? Or is it somehow 'okay' to lock someone away for decades erroneously, as long as you don't actually kill them on *purpose*? Seems rather cowardly, in my eyes. But gee, as long as no one has to *look* at them, I guess it's okay, right? Sad.
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 19:29

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan
Kickaha, when you say the state shouldn't waste resources on people that cannot be rehabilitated, does this apply to murderers and rapist only or does it also apply people that continually end of in jail for simple drug possession and other non-violent crimes?
I am not convinced that non-violent crimes (and particularly ones such as drug possession) have the same level of lack of potential rehabilitation as violent ones. As two of my criteria for applying the death penalty were a demonstrated danger to others, and a lack of rehabilitation possibility, I don't see why these situations would apply.

So no, I'm not going to get drawn into a 'where do you draw the line?' straw man argument, I've explicitly stated where that line is for me, personally. Please refer to that list of criteria before jumping to conclusions.

I firmly believe that most people are rehabilitatable. I furthermore believe that drug use crimes are inane to prosecute - get these people help, instead of incarceration. I know it's confusing to see someone as a proponent of both rehabilitation and education in the prison system, *and* as a voice for the death penalty in limited cases, but I'm just a complex sort of guy that thinks for himself.
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alcimedes
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2004-08-09, 19:43

to me the idea of incarcarating someone for something as stupid as drug posession is amazingly stupid.

if the only person you're harming is yourself, i couldn't care less.

for crimes where you harm others there are laws in place. give me my libertarian society!
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Kickaha
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2004-08-09, 19:45

*clap clap*
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InactionMan
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2004-08-09, 20:21

Not trying to get into an argument with you, just looking for clarification. And I agree with you on most points. I think the vast majority of violent offenders are just as likely to rehabilitate as non-violent offenders. In the case of drug addiction and offenses stemming from the addiction, probably far more likely. Personally, I have no faith in the jury system and if I were on trial for a crime I didn't commit and I would be scared shitless and assume I'd be convicted.

As for the murders in Florida, I think it would be the perfect case to use restorative justice instead of trying to lock them all up/execute them. Of course restorative justice won't work if the victims/victims families are dead set on vengeance.

Just to clarify, a straw-man is a mindless argument meant only to distract from the actual argument? A saw it bandied about at AI but was never exactly sure of the definition.
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alcimedes
I shot the sherrif.
 
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2004-08-09, 20:28

Quote:
A saw it bandied about at AI but was never exactly sure of the definition.
don't worry, neither were they.
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psmith2.0
Mr. Vieira
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tennessee
 
2004-08-09, 20:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan
Just to clarify, a straw-man is a mindless argument meant only to distract from the actual argument? A saw it bandied about at AI but was never exactly sure of the definition.
Yes, when you hear "straw man" trotted out, that means you're winning an argument with ShawnPatrick or bunge.







I kid because I love...
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murbot
Hoonigan
 
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2004-08-09, 20:54

I had visions of Shawn obsessing over a Trumptman post when I read that.

Well, obsessing over or masturbating to... never could quite figure that boy out.
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Wrao
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Join Date: May 2004
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2004-08-09, 21:03

Quote:
Originally Posted by InactionMan
Just to clarify, a straw-man is a mindless argument meant only to distract from the actual argument? .

here you go
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InactionMan
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2004-08-09, 21:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by murbot
I had visions of Shawn obsessing over a Trumptman post when I read that.

Well, obsessing over or masturbating to... never could quite figure that boy out.
Is this the post that got that thought stuck in your idea? giant's response to one of Nick's odd posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by giant
When you are jerking off to my posts, does your mascara run?

At least have the self-respect to not advertise your hard on for everything I write.


I just about crapped my self when I read it the first time.
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InactionMan
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2004-08-09, 22:26

Oops. That was Trumptman jerking off to giant not Shawn jerking off to Trumptman. Though that could've applied to any number of AOers. Maybe they should've changed the name of the forum to The Circle Jerk with the subtitle, 'Who's going to have to eat the cracker?'.



Oooph, I think it might be past my bedtime.

And I too kid because I love.
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